Surgeon only gives Tylenol after surgery

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

Well, sure. Your choice to go doctor shopping for opiates. Good luck when your records get flagged for drug-seeking behavior.

You don't need opiates for every "surgical site pain". You really don't.

DP. Now you sound hysterical. The DEA has more to do than to scan for who is having surgeries to see opioids. I had an addict client once who tried to go from drug store to drug store trying to get scripts before getting caught and it didn’t work. Busted. Another stole script pad. Busted. I don’t even know the docs use paper script pads anymore for actual scripts —do they?

*seek
I’m a mental health professional

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

Yes, the comparison with Sweden was noted in my reply.

You’ve also referred to Germany, France and the UK. The latter has similar stats to the US, as does Canada, which you’re notably excluding.

Germany and France also utilize prescription opioids, with the latter seeing an uptick, as noted in the respective link.

Do you have links to studies suggesting a large current disparity between the US use of prescription opioids post-surgery compared with the countries you mentioned other than Sweden?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

Yes, the comparison with Sweden was noted in my reply.

You’ve also referred to Germany, France and the UK. The latter has similar stats to the US, as does Canada, which you’re notably excluding.

Germany and France also utilize prescription opioids, with the latter seeing an uptick, as noted in the respective link.

Do you have links to studies suggesting a large current disparity between the US use of prescription opioids post-surgery compared with the countries you mentioned other than Sweden?

I never said the rest of the world had a complete prohibition against opioids.

Sure, there's an "uptick," but there still is a broad difference. You are STILL avoiding the question -- why are they not needed elsewhere, but here we're presumably "writhing in pain and biting on sticks" like animals if we don't get them?

[Anonymous]

^^Feel free to read that as "they are not needed in most cases elsewhere than the US and Canada," so it does not distract you from answering the question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I met with a surgeon today for a consult for significant and urgent surgery. There were a number of things I was unimpressed with but one was that they only give Tylenol. I feel like they would probably give more if a patient was in REALLY bad shape but her take was “some discomfort is normal after major surgery but it should be manageable with Tylenol.” That’s jacked up. We invented medication so that you don’t have to feel pain. Give a patient 3-5 days of pain meds. I’m meeting with other surgeons because this one seems heartless.

That is what I was offered after having four teeth extracted.

I insisted on getting at least a day’s worth of narcotics, in case I woke up in excruciating pain.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wanting narcotics before the surgery even happens and there is pain, and shopping around to find someone who freely gives them out is a pretty big red flag. A lot of docs now only use them in a very controlled way for people whose pain isn’t managed in other ways. They don’t just send people home with bottles of narcotics anymore for just in case reasons.

No this is not a red flag at all. Not wanting to endure pain because one doctor thinks it’s fine for you to suffer when there is a different doctor that will make recovery bearable is not drug shopping.

History has taught us it is crueler and does more harm to patients to give narcotics out without an individualized need than it is to ask patient to try and manage their pain initially with OTC and request stronger meds if needed.

+1 Some of the people on this thread don't have the ability to handle a hangnail without meds that were designed for end-of-life cancer patients.

What if you were okay? What if everything was fine? What if you barely needed the tylenol, healed beautifully, and it wasn't even an issue?

If you’re ok, then you don’t take the pain meds, obviously. I’m single. If I don’t have things at home after a surgery, I wont be able to get them until at least the next day, if I can get a friend to run an errand for me. (Would they even be able to pick up a narcotic for me? I don’t know.) But it drives me crazy how doctors hand you a paper prescription as you’re leaving surgery rather than letting you get everything that’s anticipate-able squared away beforehand.

Narcotic prescriptions often need to have actual signatures, be presented in person, be picked up by a party 18 and older... That's still not a good reason to hand them out in advance of actual need "just in case". They're not "have on hand in case you need it" meds. That's tylenol. They're "special circumstance that justifies jumping through additional hoops" meds, and responsible people should expect that if they want access.

No, no, no, no, no. If the block I was given has worn off by 1am and I am alone with my 6-year-old son, I have no way of getting an RX IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT to alleviate horrendous pain. Why would you expect me, who knows my body, to suffer because of your addiction issues? 2-3 pills as part of the prep is not feeding addiction, FFS.

Horrendous pain and suffering? You can take tylenol and ibuprofen simultaneously to cut that to a manageable level, and then staggered to maintain pain coverage and avoid breakthrough pain. Be honest: 2-3 pills is a recreational dose.

If you're having the kind of pain that would truly necessitate opioid use, you need to talk to your doctor about why.

Oh you mean telling the doctor that I know my body better than they do and will need pain medication, like OP said she would like to have the option for? But you seem hellbent on just “toughing it out” like a cowboy because, why?

And 2-3 pills will get you through the night until you can speak to your surgeon versus the on-call physician. Or maybe all that is needed to get over the hump where only ibuprofen is needed.

Responsible people know how to prepare for surgery and have the a good understanding how they would like to have their pain managed. We all aren’t recovering addicts or freaking sheep.

Why would people in the US undergoing surgery be so very different from those undergoing surgery in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK? What about Americans makes them need opioids when those in other countries do not, even after the same surgeries?

Americans expect service, comfort, and ease. It's a cultural thing. Where people in other places might reasonably expect post-surgical discomfort and modify their schedules and expectations accordingly, americans can't deal with pain or inconvenience, and need to micromanage professionals to get what they think they need upfront, just in case.

Overall health outcomes here suck proportionally, yet cost more because of insurance regulations, jumpy docs who are reluctant to prescribe, malpractice suits, etc.

I have chronic pain that is horrific. Do you have any concept of serious pain that will not go away. Its soul sucking and very hard to live with. I don't do pain meds as doctors will not treat you if you don't but I'm basically confined to my house at this point. You don't really understand that kind of pain if you minimize it. I cannot take ibprohen anymore regularly as it did a lot of damage to my kidney's doing it daily. Tylenol does nothing.

Nah, I'm the sober chronic pain person who got flamed upthread. I get it, and I disagree. Mentality is a huge part of pain perception. I've been confined to my home at times too, and I get the psychological complications of isolation and being left out and being misunderstood, etc.

Opiates don't fix any part of that.

You’re a fd up addict. This poster isn’t 🤷

You're a horrible person, addicted to cruelty. Enjoy your L.

They have addiction issues so they think everyone should suffer.

I mean, anyone lashing out at a stranger online is already suffering, no? No happy person behaves that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

Well, sure. Your choice to go doctor shopping for opiates. Good luck when your records get flagged for drug-seeking behavior.

You don't need opiates for every "surgical site pain". You really don't.

DP. Now you sound hysterical. The DEA has more to do than to scan for who is having surgeries to see opioids. I had an addict client once who tried to go from drug store to drug store trying to get scripts before getting caught and it didn’t work. Busted. Another stole script pad. Busted. I don’t even know the docs use paper script pads anymore for actual scripts —do they?

You think it's la DEA? Oh, honey... quit watching drama TV and think. It'll be your insurance flagging your file long before the DEA gets involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I met with a surgeon today for a consult for significant and urgent surgery. There were a number of things I was unimpressed with but one was that they only give Tylenol. I feel like they would probably give more if a patient was in REALLY bad shape but her take was “some discomfort is normal after major surgery but it should be manageable with Tylenol.” That’s jacked up. We invented medication so that you don’t have to feel pain. Give a patient 3-5 days of pain meds. I’m meeting with other surgeons because this one seems heartless.

That is what I was offered after having four teeth extracted.

I insisted on getting at least a day’s worth of narcotics, in case I woke up in excruciating pain.

Pathetic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

Yes, the comparison with Sweden was noted in my reply.

You’ve also referred to Germany, France and the UK. The latter has similar stats to the US, as does Canada, which you’re notably excluding.

Germany and France also utilize prescription opioids, with the latter seeing an uptick, as noted in the respective link.

Do you have links to studies suggesting a large current disparity between the US use of prescription opioids post-surgery compared with the countries you mentioned other than Sweden?

I never said the rest of the world had a complete prohibition against opioids.

Sure, there's an "uptick," but there still is a broad difference. You are STILL avoiding the question -- why are they not needed elsewhere, but here we're presumably "writhing in pain and biting on sticks" like animals if we don't get them?

Americans are weak. This has already been explained, and evidenced by the number of people on this thread asking for/believing in the idea of "just in case" narcotics. Very few USians can handle the idea of pain or discomfort or even minor inconvenience. Look at the number of people who have a full autistic meltdown in traffic or grocery store lines that don't move fast enough.

We are not a culture that remembers struggle. We're a bunch of soft, squishy candyasses. God forbid we face actual lack, or true catastrophe, or pain that doesn't have a specific, known cause and finite lifespan. We're cooked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

Yes, the comparison with Sweden was noted in my reply.

You’ve also referred to Germany, France and the UK. The latter has similar stats to the US, as does Canada, which you’re notably excluding.

Germany and France also utilize prescription opioids, with the latter seeing an uptick, as noted in the respective link.

Do you have links to studies suggesting a large current disparity between the US use of prescription opioids post-surgery compared with the countries you mentioned other than Sweden?

I never said the rest of the world had a complete prohibition against opioids.

Sure, there's an "uptick," but there still is a broad difference. You are STILL avoiding the question -- why are they not needed elsewhere, but here we're presumably "writhing in pain and biting on sticks" like animals if we don't get them?

You’ve been making sweeping assertions that the US hands out prescription pain meds too easily compared to specific other countries. The research shows it’s not that clear or simple, and when asked to back up your claims for Germany, France, and the UK, you can’t/won’t.

Again, recent research shows Canada and the UK have similar usage to the US of prescription opioids—it also has noted that the US and UK have seen dramatic drops in those prescriptions in recent years. France has actually seen an uptick. Germany still dispenses them for severe chronic pain.

Sweden also has not legalized cannabis recreationally and only very strictly for medical use. Their alcoholism rates are also lower than those of the countries you specified. So, they appear more conservative regarding regulated substances overall, culturally and legally.

This is a poor topic to argue based on conjecture, because pain itself is so subjective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

Yes, the comparison with Sweden was noted in my reply.

You’ve also referred to Germany, France and the UK. The latter has similar stats to the US, as does Canada, which you’re notably excluding.

Germany and France also utilize prescription opioids, with the latter seeing an uptick, as noted in the respective link.

Do you have links to studies suggesting a large current disparity between the US use of prescription opioids post-surgery compared with the countries you mentioned other than Sweden?

I never said the rest of the world had a complete prohibition against opioids.

Sure, there's an "uptick," but there still is a broad difference. You are STILL avoiding the question -- why are they not needed elsewhere, but here we're presumably "writhing in pain and biting on sticks" like animals if we don't get them?

You’ve been making sweeping assertions that the US hands out prescription pain meds too easily compared to specific other countries. The research shows it’s not that clear or simple, and when asked to back up your claims for Germany, France, and the UK, you can’t/won’t.

Again, recent research shows Canada and the UK have similar usage to the US of prescription opioids—it also has noted that the US and UK have seen dramatic drops in those prescriptions in recent years. France has actually seen an uptick. Germany still dispenses them for severe chronic pain.

Sweden also has not legalized cannabis recreationally and only very strictly for medical use. Their alcoholism rates are also lower than those of the countries you specified. So, they appear more conservative regarding regulated substances overall, culturally and legally.

This is a poor topic to argue based on conjecture, because pain itself is so subjective.

The question itself is simple: why are Americans (and sure, Canadians) using so many more opioids post-operatively than are routinely used in other industrialized countries? And you are doing everything you can to avoid it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

Yes, the comparison with Sweden was noted in my reply.

You’ve also referred to Germany, France and the UK. The latter has similar stats to the US, as does Canada, which you’re notably excluding.

Germany and France also utilize prescription opioids, with the latter seeing an uptick, as noted in the respective link.

Do you have links to studies suggesting a large current disparity between the US use of prescription opioids post-surgery compared with the countries you mentioned other than Sweden?

I never said the rest of the world had a complete prohibition against opioids.

Sure, there's an "uptick," but there still is a broad difference. You are STILL avoiding the question -- why are they not needed elsewhere, but here we're presumably "writhing in pain and biting on sticks" like animals if we don't get them?

You’ve been making sweeping assertions that the US hands out prescription pain meds too easily compared to specific other countries. The research shows it’s not that clear or simple, and when asked to back up your claims for Germany, France, and the UK, you can’t/won’t.

Again, recent research shows Canada and the UK have similar usage to the US of prescription opioids—it also has noted that the US and UK have seen dramatic drops in those prescriptions in recent years. France has actually seen an uptick. Germany still dispenses them for severe chronic pain.

Sweden also has not legalized cannabis recreationally and only very strictly for medical use. Their alcoholism rates are also lower than those of the countries you specified. So, they appear more conservative regarding regulated substances overall, culturally and legally.

This is a poor topic to argue based on conjecture, because pain itself is so subjective.

The question itself is simple: why are Americans (and sure, Canadians) using so many more opioids post-operatively than are routinely used in other industrialized countries? And you are doing everything you can to avoid it.

Waiting for a link to data backing your conclusion that the US, Canada, and UK—who have similar Rx opioid usage—use “so many more opioids post-operatively” than “other industrialized countries.” Which countries other than Sweden would those be?

You haven’t provided a single citation supporting your assertion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

Yes, the comparison with Sweden was noted in my reply.

You’ve also referred to Germany, France and the UK. The latter has similar stats to the US, as does Canada, which you’re notably excluding.

Germany and France also utilize prescription opioids, with the latter seeing an uptick, as noted in the respective link.

Do you have links to studies suggesting a large current disparity between the US use of prescription opioids post-surgery compared with the countries you mentioned other than Sweden?

I never said the rest of the world had a complete prohibition against opioids.

Sure, there's an "uptick," but there still is a broad difference. You are STILL avoiding the question -- why are they not needed elsewhere, but here we're presumably "writhing in pain and biting on sticks" like animals if we don't get them?

You’ve been making sweeping assertions that the US hands out prescription pain meds too easily compared to specific other countries. The research shows it’s not that clear or simple, and when asked to back up your claims for Germany, France, and the UK, you can’t/won’t.

Again, recent research shows Canada and the UK have similar usage to the US of prescription opioids—it also has noted that the US and UK have seen dramatic drops in those prescriptions in recent years. France has actually seen an uptick. Germany still dispenses them for severe chronic pain.

Sweden also has not legalized cannabis recreationally and only very strictly for medical use. Their alcoholism rates are also lower than those of the countries you specified. So, they appear more conservative regarding regulated substances overall, culturally and legally.

This is a poor topic to argue based on conjecture, because pain itself is so subjective.

The question itself is simple: why are Americans (and sure, Canadians) using so many more opioids post-operatively than are routinely used in other industrialized countries? And you are doing everything you can to avoid it.

They're being avoidant because the answer indicts them: ease, access, and aversion to even the slightest discomfort, no matter the risk.

The US has easy access to these meds, and a bunch of whiny-ass patients who will demand them without medical necessity. So we give them out when they're not needed the same way we overprescribe abx: ignorant idiots making demands they can't justify and refusing to accept different outcomes, even when they're inarguably more wise/sane.

Just look at how many people on this thread won't even try OTC or non-narcotic options. Idiots, the lot. And when you point that out, they'll lash out at you for talking sense, which is addict behavior. Addict mentality + opiates = future addicts. Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

Yes, the comparison with Sweden was noted in my reply.

You’ve also referred to Germany, France and the UK. The latter has similar stats to the US, as does Canada, which you’re notably excluding.

Germany and France also utilize prescription opioids, with the latter seeing an uptick, as noted in the respective link.

Do you have links to studies suggesting a large current disparity between the US use of prescription opioids post-surgery compared with the countries you mentioned other than Sweden?

I never said the rest of the world had a complete prohibition against opioids.

Sure, there's an "uptick," but there still is a broad difference. You are STILL avoiding the question -- why are they not needed elsewhere, but here we're presumably "writhing in pain and biting on sticks" like animals if we don't get them?

You’ve been making sweeping assertions that the US hands out prescription pain meds too easily compared to specific other countries. The research shows it’s not that clear or simple, and when asked to back up your claims for Germany, France, and the UK, you can’t/won’t.

Again, recent research shows Canada and the UK have similar usage to the US of prescription opioids—it also has noted that the US and UK have seen dramatic drops in those prescriptions in recent years. France has actually seen an uptick. Germany still dispenses them for severe chronic pain.

Sweden also has not legalized cannabis recreationally and only very strictly for medical use. Their alcoholism rates are also lower than those of the countries you specified. So, they appear more conservative regarding regulated substances overall, culturally and legally.

This is a poor topic to argue based on conjecture, because pain itself is so subjective.

The question itself is simple: why are Americans (and sure, Canadians) using so many more opioids post-operatively than are routinely used in other industrialized countries? And you are doing everything you can to avoid it.

Waiting for a link to data backing your conclusion that the US, Canada, and UK—who have similar Rx opioid usage—use “so many more opioids post-operatively” than “other industrialized countries.” Which countries other than Sweden would those be?

You haven’t provided a single citation supporting your assertion.

Not the PP you're in a spat with. If you care about statistics, you can google this for yourself. The facts are there, if you want them. Complaining that nobody did that research for you for free doesn't negate the facts, or offer much argument to the assumption that you're ignorant and lazy either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With knee replacement surgery they tell you to get ahead of the pain.
My DH tried to skip the heavy duty pain meds and it was not pretty for a few days.

He definitely needed the stronger drugs.

This. I've had a lot of different surgeries, and my pain management needs have been quite different in each case. My ACL/MCL/meniscus repair was the worst, and I definitely needed the oxy for about 4 days post-op and multiple nights after that. My bilateral mastectomy wasn't too bad, and I was fine with gabapentin and tylenol/ibuprofen. They might have given me a vicodin or two while I was still in the hospital, but nothing to take home after I was released. Laparoscopic surgeries were trivial, and OTC meds were completely fine.

OP didn't tell us what the surgery is, so we have no idea whether the doctor is being reasonable with the pain meds or whether he's some sort of purist. I would run far from any orthopedic surgeon who thinks OTC meds are sufficient.

You think doctors don't know this? The fact that OP didn't say, and hasn't come back to clarify, strongly suggests they already know they're on some nonsense.

OP probably saw the people ganging up on her and accusing her of being addicted. It is a fact that some doctors are extremely rigid when it comes to pain management. Check out r/medicine and see the debates among physicians about this. Besides not knowing what the surgery entails, we also don't know whether OP has undergone any surgical procedures before.

OP was probably trolling, like most of the people who post here. Either that, or they wanted "support" and bounced when they got a perspective check instead.

The perspective that we should tough out surgical pain versus using an FDA-approved medication that is indicated for surgical site pain? There is zero reason to go back to biting sticks and rolling around in pain because of some junkie somewhere.

My body, my choice.

But you know this isn't what happens to patients after standard surgeries in Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK, right? What makes Americans react so very much more poorly to the same procedures?

What are your sources for this claim? From a quick review:

The US and Canada have much higher post-surgery use than Sweden, but the US and UK have seen a similar and substantial drop in opioid prescriptions. France has seen an uptick in prescription opioid use, and Germany still has opioids prescribed somewhat regularly as analgesics:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749239

https://www.ofma.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Chenaf_et_al-2018-European_Journal_of_Pain-vf.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/21/2/180

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3233/JRS-220040

Sure. Same data as you. From your first link:

In this cohort study, more than 70% of surgical patients in the United States and Canada filled opioid prescriptions after 4 surgical procedures compared with only 11% in Sweden.

The exact same surgical procedures, but Swedes require 1/7 the opioid prescriptions post-op as Americans. Why is that?

I don’t care why. We have modern medicine to assist with pain, why wouldn’t we use it?