High schoolers can’t write

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:For those of you who are wondering why teachers don’t correct all of the mistakes and provide detailed feedback, I wonder if you have ever graded a set of papers? Each paper takes the grader a significant amount of time to do what is basically copyediting, and then on top of that, you have to engage the student’s ideas and provide feedback about their logic, structure, argument building, use of supporting/relevant detail from the text, or whatever else the assignment is meant to do. Writing fulsome comments along those lines takes forever as well. So if you expect copyediting and deep, detailed comments about the substance of a paper, and you multiply that by 30 kids per class, you are talking about an infinite number of hours to grade one assignment. On top of that, teachers have to plan classes, grade other kinds of work like in-class quizzes or student presentations or whatever, and then do the rest of their job. That’s after teaching in the classroom for most of the day. It just takes too much time. What would help is if teachers in other disciplines where students submit papers, like social studies or whatever, would also focus on the actual writing and not just the substance. And it would help if students review their papers and at least run them through spellcheck and grammar check.

All of that might take up a lot of time, but it isn’t teaching kids a damn thing about writing.

So it all would seem to be a waste.

Private school teacher here. I’ve spent about 5 hours today (on Labor Day, ironically) commenting on my students’ first essays of the year. Each is taking me about 25 minutes, and I have 60 of them. I’ll get these back by Weds, at which point my students will review my comments and complete a reflection. They will then have the opportunity to revise for a higher grade, taking into account my written comments and their own reflections. We will then begin essay #2.

Are you telling me I’m wasting my time providing all of this feedback? I would have loved the opportunity to go to the pool with my family today.

Back to reading essays, and wasting time apparently…

I was addressing the poster who said she doesn’t have time to give feedback.

Reread. She never wrote that she doesn’t provide feedback. She was simply explaining how much time it takes and how little time she has.

I’m that poster. I left teaching in part because there are too many students who don’t care about learning to read and write well. So spending hours of my life giving feedback to students who don’t care was getting demoralizing. And you can’t just identify the ones that might care and only give feedback to those students. This is all on top of the endless bureaucratic nonsense.

I work in a completely different field now and have endless sympathy for my former colleagues. I always tell my children that if they want to become teachers, they should definitely not become English teachers because of the absolutely crushing workload.

My sympathies, Labor Day paper grader. I see you!

No one was criticizing Labor Day paper grader. She made that up herself.

I also question where she teaches because all the private schools I’m aware of in MD don’t start until after Labor Day. Which school would have started early enough for kids to have already turned in essays?

Really? Can you tell my principal that? All the teachers and students showed up on 8/23 for the first day of school. We would have loved to know we had an extra week of summer! Wow, the joke is certainly on us!

Yes, my students wrote a diagnostic essay the first week of class. I can’t help them grow as writers if I don’t know where they currently stand.

You can try to one-up me. It isn’t going to work, but you are welcome to try.

You started school on a Friday?

8/26… a Monday

You said 8/23. Also, people don’t call them the principal in private schools. It’s the head of school.

I’m skeptical of you.

I am at a very selective Catholic high school and yes, we have a principal. You sound really dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:so where does one bring their middle schooler/high schooler for writing help? any after school programs?

I found writopia to provide good writing practice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you who are wondering why teachers don’t correct all of the mistakes and provide detailed feedback, I wonder if you have ever graded a set of papers? Each paper takes the grader a significant amount of time to do what is basically copyediting, and then on top of that, you have to engage the student’s ideas and provide feedback about their logic, structure, argument building, use of supporting/relevant detail from the text, or whatever else the assignment is meant to do. Writing fulsome comments along those lines takes forever as well. So if you expect copyediting and deep, detailed comments about the substance of a paper, and you multiply that by 30 kids per class, you are talking about an infinite number of hours to grade one assignment. On top of that, teachers have to plan classes, grade other kinds of work like in-class quizzes or student presentations or whatever, and then do the rest of their job. That’s after teaching in the classroom for most of the day. It just takes too much time. What would help is if teachers in other disciplines where students submit papers, like social studies or whatever, would also focus on the actual writing and not just the substance. And it would help if students review their papers and at least run them through spellcheck and grammar check.

All of that might take up a lot of time, but it isn’t teaching kids a damn thing about writing.

So it all would seem to be a waste.

Private school teacher here. I’ve spent about 5 hours today (on Labor Day, ironically) commenting on my students’ first essays of the year. Each is taking me about 25 minutes, and I have 60 of them. I’ll get these back by Weds, at which point my students will review my comments and complete a reflection. They will then have the opportunity to revise for a higher grade, taking into account my written comments and their own reflections. We will then begin essay #2.

Are you telling me I’m wasting my time providing all of this feedback? I would have loved the opportunity to go to the pool with my family today.

Back to reading essays, and wasting time apparently…

I was addressing the poster who said she doesn’t have time to give feedback.

Reread. She never wrote that she doesn’t provide feedback. She was simply explaining how much time it takes and how little time she has.

I’m that poster. I left teaching in part because there are too many students who don’t care about learning to read and write well. So spending hours of my life giving feedback to students who don’t care was getting demoralizing. And you can’t just identify the ones that might care and only give feedback to those students. This is all on top of the endless bureaucratic nonsense.

I work in a completely different field now and have endless sympathy for my former colleagues. I always tell my children that if they want to become teachers, they should definitely not become English teachers because of the absolutely crushing workload.

My sympathies, Labor Day paper grader. I see you!

No one was criticizing Labor Day paper grader. She made that up herself.

I also question where she teaches because all the private schools I’m aware of in MD don’t start until after Labor Day. Which school would have started early enough for kids to have already turned in essays?

Really? Can you tell my principal that? All the teachers and students showed up on 8/23 for the first day of school. We would have loved to know we had an extra week of summer! Wow, the joke is certainly on us!

Yes, my students wrote a diagnostic essay the first week of class. I can’t help them grow as writers if I don’t know where they currently stand.

You can try to one-up me. It isn’t going to work, but you are welcome to try.

You started school on a Friday?

8/26… a Monday

You said 8/23. Also, people don’t call them the principal in private schools. It’s the head of school.

I’m skeptical of you.

I am at a very selective Catholic high school and yes, we have a principal. You sound really dumb.

You’re a high schooler? Go do your homework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How can it be you are just noticing it now? Thats what shocking to me? We worked with our kids in ES and MS to make sure they could write well.

Their writing was great in ES but we were not in MCPS then. I didn’t pay attention to their writing in MS, their grades were all As I assumed it was fine (plus there was COVID).

Are you concerned their writing was great, but then declined significantly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so where does one bring their middle schooler/high schooler for writing help? any after school programs?

Can you work with them? We worked on and reviewed all assignments in MS.

Some parents value a qualified teacher working with their kid. I would never be so arrogant as to think I can replace that.

Some parents learned middle school reading and writing in middle school, and reviewed in high school and college. But I understand your concern and admire your effort, if your child is striving to be the first US high school graduate in your family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you who are wondering why teachers don’t correct all of the mistakes and provide detailed feedback, I wonder if you have ever graded a set of papers? Each paper takes the grader a significant amount of time to do what is basically copyediting, and then on top of that, you have to engage the student’s ideas and provide feedback about their logic, structure, argument building, use of supporting/relevant detail from the text, or whatever else the assignment is meant to do. Writing fulsome comments along those lines takes forever as well. So if you expect copyediting and deep, detailed comments about the substance of a paper, and you multiply that by 30 kids per class, you are talking about an infinite number of hours to grade one assignment. On top of that, teachers have to plan classes, grade other kinds of work like in-class quizzes or student presentations or whatever, and then do the rest of their job. That’s after teaching in the classroom for most of the day. It just takes too much time. What would help is if teachers in other disciplines where students submit papers, like social studies or whatever, would also focus on the actual writing and not just the substance. And it would help if students review their papers and at least run them through spellcheck and grammar check.

All of that might take up a lot of time, but it isn’t teaching kids a damn thing about writing.

So it all would seem to be a waste.

Private school teacher here. I’ve spent about 5 hours today (on Labor Day, ironically) commenting on my students’ first essays of the year. Each is taking me about 25 minutes, and I have 60 of them. I’ll get these back by Weds, at which point my students will review my comments and complete a reflection. They will then have the opportunity to revise for a higher grade, taking into account my written comments and their own reflections. We will then begin essay #2.

Are you telling me I’m wasting my time providing all of this feedback? I would have loved the opportunity to go to the pool with my family today.

Back to reading essays, and wasting time apparently…

I was addressing the poster who said she doesn’t have time to give feedback.

Reread. She never wrote that she doesn’t provide feedback. She was simply explaining how much time it takes and how little time she has.

I’m that poster. I left teaching in part because there are too many students who don’t care about learning to read and write well. So spending hours of my life giving feedback to students who don’t care was getting demoralizing. And you can’t just identify the ones that might care and only give feedback to those students. This is all on top of the endless bureaucratic nonsense.

I work in a completely different field now and have endless sympathy for my former colleagues. I always tell my children that if they want to become teachers, they should definitely not become English teachers because of the absolutely crushing workload.

My sympathies, Labor Day paper grader. I see you!

No one was criticizing Labor Day paper grader. She made that up herself.

I also question where she teaches because all the private schools I’m aware of in MD don’t start until after Labor Day. Which school would have started early enough for kids to have already turned in essays?

Why do you assume you know more about everyone else's lives than they know about their own lives?
Do you know how insane that is?
https://www.cesjds.org/about/calendar?cal_date=2024-08-02

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so where does one bring their middle schooler/high schooler for writing help? any after school programs?

Can you work with them? We worked on and reviewed all assignments in MS.

Some parents value a qualified teacher working with their kid. I would never be so arrogant as to think I can replace that.

Or, they are unable or too lazy to help their kids. I'm amazed at people not knowing how well their teens write.

I write for a living. I would not trust myself to be the primary person teaching my kid to write.

You need to review your child's writing and work with them or accept their writing skills are what they are. Or, hire a tutor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you who are wondering why teachers don’t correct all of the mistakes and provide detailed feedback, I wonder if you have ever graded a set of papers? Each paper takes the grader a significant amount of time to do what is basically copyediting, and then on top of that, you have to engage the student’s ideas and provide feedback about their logic, structure, argument building, use of supporting/relevant detail from the text, or whatever else the assignment is meant to do. Writing fulsome comments along those lines takes forever as well. So if you expect copyediting and deep, detailed comments about the substance of a paper, and you multiply that by 30 kids per class, you are talking about an infinite number of hours to grade one assignment. On top of that, teachers have to plan classes, grade other kinds of work like in-class quizzes or student presentations or whatever, and then do the rest of their job. That’s after teaching in the classroom for most of the day. It just takes too much time. What would help is if teachers in other disciplines where students submit papers, like social studies or whatever, would also focus on the actual writing and not just the substance. And it would help if students review their papers and at least run them through spellcheck and grammar check.

All of that might take up a lot of time, but it isn’t teaching kids a damn thing about writing.

So it all would seem to be a waste.

Private school teacher here. I’ve spent about 5 hours today (on Labor Day, ironically) commenting on my students’ first essays of the year. Each is taking me about 25 minutes, and I have 60 of them. I’ll get these back by Weds, at which point my students will review my comments and complete a reflection. They will then have the opportunity to revise for a higher grade, taking into account my written comments and their own reflections. We will then begin essay #2.

Are you telling me I’m wasting my time providing all of this feedback? I would have loved the opportunity to go to the pool with my family today.

Back to reading essays, and wasting time apparently…

I was addressing the poster who said she doesn’t have time to give feedback.

Reread. She never wrote that she doesn’t provide feedback. She was simply explaining how much time it takes and how little time she has.

I’m that poster. I left teaching in part because there are too many students who don’t care about learning to read and write well. So spending hours of my life giving feedback to students who don’t care was getting demoralizing. And you can’t just identify the ones that might care and only give feedback to those students. This is all on top of the endless bureaucratic nonsense.

I work in a completely different field now and have endless sympathy for my former colleagues. I always tell my children that if they want to become teachers, they should definitely not become English teachers because of the absolutely crushing workload.

My sympathies, Labor Day paper grader. I see you!

No one was criticizing Labor Day paper grader. She made that up herself.

I also question where she teaches because all the private schools I’m aware of in MD don’t start until after Labor Day. Which school would have started early enough for kids to have already turned in essays?

Really? Can you tell my principal that? All the teachers and students showed up on 8/23 for the first day of school. We would have loved to know we had an extra week of summer! Wow, the joke is certainly on us!

Yes, my students wrote a diagnostic essay the first week of class. I can’t help them grow as writers if I don’t know where they currently stand.

You can try to one-up me. It isn’t going to work, but you are welcome to try.

You started school on a Friday?

8/26… a Monday

You said 8/23. Also, people don’t call them the principal in private schools. It’s the head of school.

I’m skeptical of you.

I am at a very selective Catholic high school and yes, we have a principal. You sound really dumb.

We will pray for you. Get off DCUM and do your homework.

[Anonymous]

Mcps employee here.
-I am using the institute for excellence in writing to teach my kid how to write. My child is in 5th grade and has terrible grammar, spelling, and idea organization. I think some kids can learn to write by being avid readers (like my other kid) while many need direct instruction which mcps is not providing in a systematic way. It's shameful that they only focus on reading and math and don'teven do a good job with these subjects. Writing has just been completely thrown out the window. This curriculum has been recommended on dcum and I really like it. It is extrmely structured. You can either do it through a tutor, online classss, or you can learn the curriculum on your own. It's sad that providing a solid education has fallen on the shoulders of many parents and even more depressing that the kids who need it the most won't be able to get extra academic support from their families.

[Anonymous]

This article focuses on reading but also touches on writing. It's very relevant to many of the points people made in this thread: https://hechingerreport.org/opinion-english-language-arts-instruction-needs-to-change-immediately-here-are-some-ways-that-can-work/

Shift the focus from what students consume to what they produce. In a standards-driven curriculum, the focus isn’t on the text; it’s on how students demonstrate grade-level thinking through the speaking and writing they do in response to text-based ideas. This changes the classroom focus from what students consume (specific texts) to what they create (specific oral and written products). In addition, when students are given opportunities to create different authentic writing products for different audiences and purposes, it helps them build skills they can transfer to real-world settings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so where does one bring their middle schooler/high schooler for writing help? any after school programs?

Can you work with them? We worked on and reviewed all assignments in MS.

Some parents value a qualified teacher working with their kid. I would never be so arrogant as to think I can replace that.

Or, they are unable or too lazy to help their kids. I'm amazed at people not knowing how well their teens write.

I write for a living. I would not trust myself to be the primary person teaching my kid to write.

You need to review your child's writing and work with them or accept their writing skills are what they are. Or, hire a tutor.

Reviewing the kid’s writing is one thing. Being the primary person to teach my kid to write is another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so where does one bring their middle schooler/high schooler for writing help? any after school programs?

Can you work with them? We worked on and reviewed all assignments in MS.

Some parents value a qualified teacher working with their kid. I would never be so arrogant as to think I can replace that.

Or, they are unable or too lazy to help their kids. I'm amazed at people not knowing how well their teens write.

I write for a living. I would not trust myself to be the primary person teaching my kid to write.

You need to review your child's writing and work with them or accept their writing skills are what they are. Or, hire a tutor.

DP. I accept my kids’ writing skills for what they are. I don’t know how you all find time for all this tutoring and supplementing, in addition to all of the other things teens are expected to do these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so where does one bring their middle schooler/high schooler for writing help? any after school programs?

Can you work with them? We worked on and reviewed all assignments in MS.

Some parents value a qualified teacher working with their kid. I would never be so arrogant as to think I can replace that.

Some parents learned middle school reading and writing in middle school, and reviewed in high school and college. But I understand your concern and admire your effort, if your child is striving to be the first US high school graduate in your family.

So you fundamentally don’t value teaching as a profession, as you think anyone who went through school can teach everything they learned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so where does one bring their middle schooler/high schooler for writing help? any after school programs?

Can you work with them? We worked on and reviewed all assignments in MS.

Some parents value a qualified teacher working with their kid. I would never be so arrogant as to think I can replace that.

Some parents learned middle school reading and writing in middle school, and reviewed in high school and college. But I understand your concern and admire your effort, if your child is striving to be the first US high school graduate in your family.

So you fundamentally don’t value teaching as a profession, as you think anyone who went through school can teach everything they learned.

And let me add: I have two parents who went through graduate school and have professional careers.

My husband has two graduate degrees. So do I.

I write and edit other people’s work for a living.

I still don’t think I can be my kid’s primary writing instructor.

[Anonymous]

This is nothing new. Colleges, even competitive colleges accepting the best students, have had mandatory freshman writing classes since the middle of the last century.