WVU cutting 32 majors, all foreign languages

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.

And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.

Any other great pontificating directions you got?

You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.

You can do these things with a Spanish degree, but it would be stupid to do so. You would be making life harder for yourself. What you should do, in each case, is one of the far more obviously useful degrees for each one.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

This is not just about majoring in a foreign language, it’s about being able to take classes in it. And it is classist to say poor kids don’t need to learn anything but trade skills or business /office skills.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.

Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.

And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?

How much does the WVU president make? How much do the top admin make? How much have taxes been cut on big businesses and wealthy residents that could help the public high education system?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

This is not just about majoring in a foreign language, it’s about being able to take classes in it. And it is classist to say poor kids don’t need to learn anything but trade skills or business /office skills.

Per the post by the WVU language teacher, there were only 4 foreign language professors. Seems to me that taking a foreign language class was not very popular there.

This is no different than other universities getting rid of the undergrad English major due to declining enrollment in that field.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.

Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.

And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?

How much does the WVU president make? How much do the top admin make? How much have taxes been cut on big businesses and wealthy residents that could help the public high education system?

Don't disagree that we need better funding for education, but that still doesn't negate what I posted above.. for 99% of people, college is a pathway to good paying jobs. Gone are the days when college was mostly for the elite to get a liberal arts education. Why can't wealthy Dems understand that?

[Anonymous]

The posters who argue that foreign language courses / majors in college are useless feel the same way about every other non-STEM major. There’s no changing their minds on this.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.

And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.

Any other great pontificating directions you got?

You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.

You can do these things with a Spanish degree, but it would be stupid to do so. You would be making life harder for yourself. What you should do, in each case, is one of the far more obviously useful degrees for each one.

Hmm I’ll be sure to tell my Spanish major friend who just made partner at her law firm that her major was “stupid.” I am also at the top of a well-paid regulatory niche with my “stupid” Spanish degree …

Anyway if WVU wants to convert itself into a trade school, bully for them. They should expect a corresponding lack of interest by top students.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.

Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.

And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?

How much does the WVU president make? How much do the top admin make? How much have taxes been cut on big businesses and wealthy residents that could help the public high education system?

Don't disagree that we need better funding for education, but that still doesn't negate what I posted above.. for 99% of people, college is a pathway to good paying jobs. Gone are the days when college was mostly for the elite to get a liberal arts education. Why can't wealthy Dems understand that?

And yet you are the one who is classist. For real. You are promoting a path that is a downward spiral. Who will be teaching foreign languages in high schools when there are no more foreign language classes in college? Oh, I guess WV is too poor and students don't need to learn such hoity toity subjects in your viewpoint. In fact, just cut all the arts and humanities in elementary and high schools, right? There won't be anyone to teach them anyway once all those classes get cut at the college level. Too bad for ambitious kids who might want to apply to some selective schools around the country that would actually give them enough aid to afford to attend (apparently unlike WVU, given what you and others here are saying about it being too expensive for students to study the humanities). Selective schools tend to want students who have taken a broad range of classes and not just practical STEM classes. Highly selective schools demand 4 years of foreign languages. You're basically saying no WV kids need to apply to highly selective schools, since your push to eliminate foreign languages at the university level means foreign languages will dry up at the high school level.

By the way, I was one of those poor kids many years ago, offered a ton of aid by a very selective college so that I could attend. I'm pretty sure one of the things that made me stand out when applying was how advanced I was in a certain unusual foreign language. And in college I took many humanities and other classes you likely think are superfluous to life, yet I went on to a decent job. A better than decent job, in fact. It's completely wrong to insist that humanities and liberal arts classes don't convey any skills that are useful in a broad array of jobs. Critical thinking, creativity, writing skills, even empathy and understanding of others, which can be learned by studying foreign languages, will always be useful, even in the age of AI. Especially in the age of AI. I absolutely look more positively at resumes where it's clear the applicant is not a one-trick pony, and yes, foreign language skills convey to me a more interesting candidate. Especially if a candidate has studied abroad. And yes, I did that too -- even as a Pell grant student, it was made affordable by my college. Taking away foreign languages all but guarantees study abroad programs will dry up. And that is removing opportunities from poor kids. (Again, before you say they can't afford it anyway, I was one of those poor kids who was able to do it because it didn't cost any more than studying at the home campus.)

If you want to make WV a place where people want to move to rather than from, you don't do it by turning your flagship school into a trade school.

Trade schools are awesome, by the way, and I think they also should be promoted as an option for high school students.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.

Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.

And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?

How much does the WVU president make? How much do the top admin make? How much have taxes been cut on big businesses and wealthy residents that could help the public high education system?

Don't disagree that we need better funding for education, but that still doesn't negate what I posted above.. for 99% of people, college is a pathway to good paying jobs. Gone are the days when college was mostly for the elite to get a liberal arts education. Why can't wealthy Dems understand that?

And yet you are the one who is classist. For real. You are promoting a path that is a downward spiral. Who will be teaching foreign languages in high schools when there are no more foreign language classes in college? Oh, I guess WV is too poor and students don't need to learn such hoity toity subjects in your viewpoint. In fact, just cut all the arts and humanities in elementary and high schools, right? There won't be anyone to teach them anyway once all those classes get cut at the college level. Too bad for ambitious kids who might want to apply to some selective schools around the country that would actually give them enough aid to afford to attend (apparently unlike WVU, given what you and others here are saying about it being too expensive for students to study the humanities). Selective schools tend to want students who have taken a broad range of classes and not just practical STEM classes. Highly selective schools demand 4 years of foreign languages. You're basically saying no WV kids need to apply to highly selective schools, since your push to eliminate foreign languages at the university level means foreign languages will dry up at the high school level.

By the way, I was one of those poor kids many years ago, offered a ton of aid by a very selective college so that I could attend. I'm pretty sure one of the things that made me stand out when applying was how advanced I was in a certain unusual foreign language. And in college I took many humanities and other classes you likely think are superfluous to life, yet I went on to a decent job. A better than decent job, in fact. It's completely wrong to insist that humanities and liberal arts classes don't convey any skills that are useful in a broad array of jobs. Critical thinking, creativity, writing skills, even empathy and understanding of others, which can be learned by studying foreign languages, will always be useful, even in the age of AI. Especially in the age of AI. I absolutely look more positively at resumes where it's clear the applicant is not a one-trick pony, and yes, foreign language skills convey to me a more interesting candidate. Especially if a candidate has studied abroad. And yes, I did that too -- even as a Pell grant student, it was made affordable by my college. Taking away foreign languages all but guarantees study abroad programs will dry up. And that is removing opportunities from poor kids. (Again, before you say they can't afford it anyway, I was one of those poor kids who was able to do it because it didn't cost any more than studying at the home campus.)

If you want to make WV a place where people want to move to rather than from, you don't do it by turning your flagship school into a trade school.

Trade schools are awesome, by the way, and I think they also should be promoted as an option for high school students.

Can you give examples of such schools that provide this aid and are need blind for admission?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.

Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.

And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?

How much does the WVU president make? How much do the top admin make? How much have taxes been cut on big businesses and wealthy residents that could help the public high education system?

Don't disagree that we need better funding for education, but that still doesn't negate what I posted above.. for 99% of people, college is a pathway to good paying jobs. Gone are the days when college was mostly for the elite to get a liberal arts education. Why can't wealthy Dems understand that?

And yet you are the one who is classist. For real. You are promoting a path that is a downward spiral. Who will be teaching foreign languages in high schools when there are no more foreign language classes in college? Oh, I guess WV is too poor and students don't need to learn such hoity toity subjects in your viewpoint. In fact, just cut all the arts and humanities in elementary and high schools, right? There won't be anyone to teach them anyway once all those classes get cut at the college level. Too bad for ambitious kids who might want to apply to some selective schools around the country that would actually give them enough aid to afford to attend (apparently unlike WVU, given what you and others here are saying about it being too expensive for students to study the humanities). Selective schools tend to want students who have taken a broad range of classes and not just practical STEM classes. Highly selective schools demand 4 years of foreign languages. You're basically saying no WV kids need to apply to highly selective schools, since your push to eliminate foreign languages at the university level means foreign languages will dry up at the high school level.

By the way, I was one of those poor kids many years ago, offered a ton of aid by a very selective college so that I could attend. I'm pretty sure one of the things that made me stand out when applying was how advanced I was in a certain unusual foreign language. And in college I took many humanities and other classes you likely think are superfluous to life, yet I went on to a decent job. A better than decent job, in fact. It's completely wrong to insist that humanities and liberal arts classes don't convey any skills that are useful in a broad array of jobs. Critical thinking, creativity, writing skills, even empathy and understanding of others, which can be learned by studying foreign languages, will always be useful, even in the age of AI. Especially in the age of AI. I absolutely look more positively at resumes where it's clear the applicant is not a one-trick pony, and yes, foreign language skills convey to me a more interesting candidate. Especially if a candidate has studied abroad. And yes, I did that too -- even as a Pell grant student, it was made affordable by my college. Taking away foreign languages all but guarantees study abroad programs will dry up. And that is removing opportunities from poor kids. (Again, before you say they can't afford it anyway, I was one of those poor kids who was able to do it because it didn't cost any more than studying at the home campus.)

If you want to make WV a place where people want to move to rather than from, you don't do it by turning your flagship school into a trade school.

Trade schools are awesome, by the way, and I think they also should be promoted as an option for high school students.

Can you give examples of such schools that provide this aid and are need blind for admission?

All Ivies, for example.

And the next level. A cousin of mine just graduated from Emory having gone through Questbridge. Her family (from rural area, on medicaid) paid $0.00 for her tuition room and board for all 4 years.

https://www.quadeducationgroup.com/blog/the-top-need-blind-colleges

[Anonymous]

I don't know why you all keep saying students won't have any opportunity to learn a foreign language at WVU. The in-person dept is to be cut. They will likely partner with other colleges to offer online courses. They already have online courses in a variety of subjects.

Online foreign language classes can be really great, you can get a native speaker that is great at teaching and learn in a small group format.

I took Spanish classes in college (not my major) and a lot of what we did was watch telenovelas, read books, and write papers. You don't have to be in class to do any of those things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My name is Jonah Katz; I'm an associate professor of linguistics at West Virginia University.

skyrocketing administrative personnel costs and excessive debt associated with a failed growth strategy [and] (declining enrollment, COVID, and inadequate state funding).

To be honest, I don't know if anything that we can do will help the situation.

Hey Jonah, sorry for your loss (and WVU's). I'm a professor, and hate the administrative bloat, where administrative spending exceeds faculty spending.

Due to demographics, declining enrollments will hit many schools. Students are not majoring in humanities, and the state is not willing to fund them. I don't blame them. Let's face it, in a nation with millions of immigrants, there are much cheaper ways to learn languages.

It appears this was done in a rough way. But you are not suggesting alternative cost cuts, nor tuition increases. It seems like you need to go to an institution that values linguistic scholarship more than WVU.

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.

Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.

And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?

How much does the WVU president make? How much do the top admin make? How much have taxes been cut on big businesses and wealthy residents that could help the public high education system?

Don't disagree that we need better funding for education, but that still doesn't negate what I posted above.. for 99% of people, college is a pathway to good paying jobs. Gone are the days when college was mostly for the elite to get a liberal arts education. Why can't wealthy Dems understand that?

And yet you are the one who is classist. For real. You are promoting a path that is a downward spiral. Who will be teaching foreign languages in high schools when there are no more foreign language classes in college? Oh, I guess WV is too poor and students don't need to learn such hoity toity subjects in your viewpoint. In fact, just cut all the arts and humanities in elementary and high schools, right? There won't be anyone to teach them anyway once all those classes get cut at the college level. Too bad for ambitious kids who might want to apply to some selective schools around the country that would actually give them enough aid to afford to attend (apparently unlike WVU, given what you and others here are saying about it being too expensive for students to study the humanities). Selective schools tend to want students who have taken a broad range of classes and not just practical STEM classes. Highly selective schools demand 4 years of foreign languages. You're basically saying no WV kids need to apply to highly selective schools, since your push to eliminate foreign languages at the university level means foreign languages will dry up at the high school level.

By the way, I was one of those poor kids many years ago, offered a ton of aid by a very selective college so that I could attend. I'm pretty sure one of the things that made me stand out when applying was how advanced I was in a certain unusual foreign language. And in college I took many humanities and other classes you likely think are superfluous to life, yet I went on to a decent job. A better than decent job, in fact. It's completely wrong to insist that humanities and liberal arts classes don't convey any skills that are useful in a broad array of jobs. Critical thinking, creativity, writing skills, even empathy and understanding of others, which can be learned by studying foreign languages, will always be useful, even in the age of AI. Especially in the age of AI. I absolutely look more positively at resumes where it's clear the applicant is not a one-trick pony, and yes, foreign language skills convey to me a more interesting candidate. Especially if a candidate has studied abroad. And yes, I did that too -- even as a Pell grant student, it was made affordable by my college. Taking away foreign languages all but guarantees study abroad programs will dry up. And that is removing opportunities from poor kids. (Again, before you say they can't afford it anyway, I was one of those poor kids who was able to do it because it didn't cost any more than studying at the home campus.)

If you want to make WV a place where people want to move to rather than from, you don't do it by turning your flagship school into a trade school.

Trade schools are awesome, by the way, and I think they also should be promoted as an option for high school students.

Can you give examples of such schools that provide this aid and are need blind for admission?

All Ivies, for example.

And the next level. A cousin of mine just graduated from Emory having gone through Questbridge. Her family (from rural area, on medicaid) paid $0.00 for her tuition room and board for all 4 years.

https://www.quadeducationgroup.com/blog/the-top-need-blind-colleges

Any others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

How much does the WVU president make? How much do the top admin make? How much have taxes been cut on big businesses and wealthy residents that could help the public high education system?

Here is a list of the highest paid officials at WVU. #1 is teh basketball coach (who has since resigned.. he got a DUI):
https://openpayrolls.com/rank/highest-paid-employees/west-virginia-university

Also in that list:

"West Virginia University (WVU) in 2022 ranked 247th in the nation among highest paying universities and colleges" so hardly out of line with peers.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.

Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.

And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?

How much does the WVU president make? How much do the top admin make? How much have taxes been cut on big businesses and wealthy residents that could help the public high education system?

Don't disagree that we need better funding for education, but that still doesn't negate what I posted above.. for 99% of people, college is a pathway to good paying jobs. Gone are the days when college was mostly for the elite to get a liberal arts education. Why can't wealthy Dems understand that?

And yet you are the one who is classist. For real. You are promoting a path that is a downward spiral. Who will be teaching foreign languages in high schools when there are no more foreign language classes in college? Oh, I guess WV is too poor and students don't need to learn such hoity toity subjects in your viewpoint. In fact, just cut all the arts and humanities in elementary and high schools, right? There won't be anyone to teach them anyway once all those classes get cut at the college level. Too bad for ambitious kids who might want to apply to some selective schools around the country that would actually give them enough aid to afford to attend (apparently unlike WVU, given what you and others here are saying about it being too expensive for students to study the humanities). Selective schools tend to want students who have taken a broad range of classes and not just practical STEM classes. Highly selective schools demand 4 years of foreign languages. You're basically saying no WV kids need to apply to highly selective schools, since your push to eliminate foreign languages at the university level means foreign languages will dry up at the high school level.

By the way, I was one of those poor kids many years ago, offered a ton of aid by a very selective college so that I could attend. I'm pretty sure one of the things that made me stand out when applying was how advanced I was in a certain unusual foreign language. And in college I took many humanities and other classes you likely think are superfluous to life, yet I went on to a decent job. A better than decent job, in fact. It's completely wrong to insist that humanities and liberal arts classes don't convey any skills that are useful in a broad array of jobs. Critical thinking, creativity, writing skills, even empathy and understanding of others, which can be learned by studying foreign languages, will always be useful, even in the age of AI. Especially in the age of AI. I absolutely look more positively at resumes where it's clear the applicant is not a one-trick pony, and yes, foreign language skills convey to me a more interesting candidate. Especially if a candidate has studied abroad. And yes, I did that too -- even as a Pell grant student, it was made affordable by my college. Taking away foreign languages all but guarantees study abroad programs will dry up. And that is removing opportunities from poor kids. (Again, before you say they can't afford it anyway, I was one of those poor kids who was able to do it because it didn't cost any more than studying at the home campus.)

If you want to make WV a place where people want to move to rather than from, you don't do it by turning your flagship school into a trade school.

Trade schools are awesome, by the way, and I think they also should be promoted as an option for high school students.

WV is not an attractive place to live for most professions. If they need/want foreign language teachers, they should make it more attractive for such teachers to teach there. But, seems like WV and WVU doesn't care about that. Clearly, the many years that they have fl teachers didn't help improve WV.

Telling lower income kids to major in something useful to get a good paying job is now "promoting a downward spiral"? How so? IMO, it's the opposite. Majoring in something useful and getting a good paying job is promoting upward mobility. Also, I bet you have a graduate degree, right? Back to that argument. Most liberal arts degrees require a masters to get a good paying job. You think a poor person can afford to get a masters degree? And I bet you got your degree many years ago. Have you looked at the cost of college these days? My DC#1 is about to go off to college. The cost is astronomical. We don't qualify for any financial aid but even if we did, pell grant is tiny compared to college costs.

PP here.. I, too, came from a low income background and received a pell grant and a state grant. No way would I waste money on a foreign language degree. Poor people don't have that kind of privilege. I'm far from elitist. I'm practical. Poor don't have the privilege of being anything but practical.