WVU cutting 32 majors, all foreign languages

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I speak 5 languages so I absolutely understand the value, but it seems like everyone is up in arms over one university in a state most DCUMers look down upon cutting such a program.

Where were the protests about the 651 foreign language majors dropped at universities in the US 2016-2019:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/opinions/duke-professor-mla-report-foreign-language-departments-ben-ghiat/index.html

I guess the positive sign is DCUMers seem to really care about West Virginia and its flagship university. Great!

THIS.

And I'll repeat my earlier question that no one here answered:

To all those that are so upset about this, were your planning on your kid going to WVU to major in a foreign language?

Heh most people on DCUM would be ashamed if their kid went to WVU for anything. This forum is all "should my high stats kid go to Yale or Stanford?"

Yet there are 12 pages of uproar about something happening at a college they would never send their kid to.

The foreign language majors are not popular at WVU and incredibly under enrolled. It’s a financial loss.

But the all knowing DCUM, who wouldn’t send a kid to WVU anyway, is outraged about this decision. Classic bubble elitist thinking.

there are plenty of regular kids on DCUM. WVA is the kind of school we would be considering.

I doubt that a student highly interested in learning a foreign language would target West Virginia as the place to learn it.
Come on.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I speak 5 languages so I absolutely understand the value, but it seems like everyone is up in arms over one university in a state most DCUMers look down upon cutting such a program.

Where were the protests about the 651 foreign language majors dropped at universities in the US 2016-2019:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/opinions/duke-professor-mla-report-foreign-language-departments-ben-ghiat/index.html

I guess the positive sign is DCUMers seem to really care about West Virginia and its flagship university. Great!

THIS.

And I'll repeat my earlier question that no one here answered:

To all those that are so upset about this, were your planning on your kid going to WVU to major in a foreign language?

Heh most people on DCUM would be ashamed if their kid went to WVU for anything. This forum is all "should my high stats kid go to Yale or Stanford?"

Yet there are 12 pages of uproar about something happening at a college they would never send their kid to.

The foreign language majors are not popular at WVU and incredibly under enrolled. It’s a financial loss.

But the all knowing DCUM, who wouldn’t send a kid to WVU anyway, is outraged about this decision. Classic bubble elitist thinking.

there are plenty of regular kids on DCUM. WVA is the kind of school we would be considering.

I doubt that a student highly interested in learning a foreign language would target West Virginia as the place to learn it.
Come on.

The best professor I ever had got his PhD in Spanish at WVU

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I speak 5 languages so I absolutely understand the value, but it seems like everyone is up in arms over one university in a state most DCUMers look down upon cutting such a program.

Where were the protests about the 651 foreign language majors dropped at universities in the US 2016-2019:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/opinions/duke-professor-mla-report-foreign-language-departments-ben-ghiat/index.html

I guess the positive sign is DCUMers seem to really care about West Virginia and its flagship university. Great!

THIS.

And I'll repeat my earlier question that no one here answered:

To all those that are so upset about this, were your planning on your kid going to WVU to major in a foreign language?

Heh most people on DCUM would be ashamed if their kid went to WVU for anything. This forum is all "should my high stats kid go to Yale or Stanford?"

Yet there are 12 pages of uproar about something happening at a college they would never send their kid to.

The foreign language majors are not popular at WVU and incredibly under enrolled. It’s a financial loss.

But the all knowing DCUM, who wouldn’t send a kid to WVU anyway, is outraged about this decision. Classic bubble elitist thinking.

there are plenty of regular kids on DCUM. WVA is the kind of school we would be considering.

I doubt that a student highly interested in learning a foreign language would target West Virginia as the place to learn it.
Come on.

why not? regular kids exist and sometimes they want to study foreign language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.

Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.

And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.

Any other great pontificating directions you got?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

LOL.. how many spanish speaking people are in WV such that a social worker, nurse, police officer administrators getting a BA in Spanish would be a good start.

You know what WV won't need? College professors teaching Spanish.

[Anonymous]

My name is Jonah Katz; I'm an associate professor of linguistics at West Virginia University. I work in a large department that includes all of the world languages and literatures at WVU in addition to its 'basic' and applied linguistics programs. On August 10, 2023, the WVU provost recommended dissolving our department and all of its academic programs and faculty lines, including the only Linguistics programs in the state of West Virginia (our MA and undergrad minor). All of the tenured and untenured faculty in the department are to be laid off, including the linguistics faculty. All of the foreign language and literature programs at the university are to be discontinued; the president of the university publicly stated that foreign-language classes will be replaced with online apps or remote classes at other universities. I'm asking linguists to help us publicize what's happened here and advocate on our behalf.

We are a very small program (4 faculty in basic linguistics and 4-5 more in applied linguistics/TESOL), but punch well above our weight in both research output and external grant funding. In fact, on the same day WVU wrote to tell us our department is cancelled and we are fired, they ran a front-page article on the university website celebrating the NSF grant that Sergio Robles-Puente and I recently received, and lauding our innovative research and intensive student mentoring. That grant will now need to be discontinued or moved to another institution. WVU linguists more generally have served thousands of students here over decades. They have helped document and preserve the unique linguistic heritage of the region, from ethnographic studies on Appalachian English in public-school classrooms to the only existing work documenting the Spanish spoken in West Virginia. They have helped train generations of public-school foreign-language and English teachers in a state facing a dire shortage of K-12 educators. And they have served as one of the few connections between West Virginia students and the larger world, from study-abroad programs to scientific training that has prepared students for graduate study at some of the most prestigious institutions in the United States and beyond.

The reason given for this egregious violation of ethical and professional norms is that the university faces a dire budget crisis, and the administration has no choice but to cut academic programs in order to close their structural budget deficit. But the administration's own financial data, gathered at great cost with external consultants and publicly posted here, clearly indicate that the department as a whole (p. 7) has generated operating profits of more than $800,000 in each of the last three years, even without counting our grant income, which is substantial (our NSF project is just one of several large external grants that faculty in our department have been awarded in the past several years). This is not a financial decision: it is an ideological one, as our president's public comments make clear.

The story of how the university got into such a catastrophic financial position to begin with is a long and complex one, and tangential to my message here. But for those interested, this exposé in the Chronicle of Higher Education (unfortunately paywalled for many readers) and this anonymous report by WVU faculty demonstrate convincingly that skyrocketing administrative personnel costs and excessive debt associated with a failed growth strategy are two of the major drivers (declining enrollment, COVID, and inadequate state funding also played a role).

To be honest, I don't know if anything that we can do will help the situation. The leadership of the university has made up its mind, they have the backing of state politicians and the board they appointed to oversee the university, and they will not be swayed by appeals to reason or ideals. What they may respond to is public pressure, and to that end I am asking my colleagues to share what is happening here as widely as you can through all available media and professional networks. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and we need a whole lot of disinfectant at my institution. You could also consider writing to the people who made these decisions and their enablers, and if you represent an organization like a department or institute, consider doing so publicly in an open letter. Let them know what you think of the decision to eliminate all foreign language, literature, and linguistics classes at a public land-grant state flagship, and to fire all faculty regardless of merit, longevity, or tenure. Let them know how this will affect the reputation of West Virginia University and the state that it represents. Let them know how it will affect young people's prospects and their choices in one of the poorest and least-educated states in the country, where huge numbers of our most talented and driven young people are already leaving to seek better educational and professional opportunities. Thank you for your time, and to my many wonderful colleagues who have reached out this week to ask how you can help. I am lucky beyond belief to work in such a supportive, principled, and collaborative field, and to have so many amazing mentors and colleagues. Linguists really are the best.

University leadership directly in charge of this process include President Gordon Gee ( [e-mail] ) and Provost Maryanne Reed ( [e-mail] ). The WVU Board of Governors is a politically appointed body that is supposed to oversee the administration of the university, and will eventually need to approve the provost's recommendations. They can be contacted via Special Assistant Valerie Lopez ( [e-mail] ). Governor Jim Justice appointed most of the Board and has strongly supported Gee during his term. His office can be contacted using this form.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.

And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.

Any other great pontificating directions you got?

You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

LOL.. how many spanish speaking people are in WV such that a social worker, nurse, police officer administrators getting a BA in Spanish would be a good start.

You know what WV won't need? College professors teaching Spanish.

According to Census data, WV is 92.8% white, and 2.1% of the population is Latino. Indeed there is not much need among employers in WV for Spanish speakers.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.

And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.

Any other great pontificating directions you got?

You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.

Indeed. Point is, you need to get another degree with your Spanish degree in order to get a decent paying job. By itself, a Spanish undergrad doesn't do much for you.

Also, they don't need Spanish speakers in the work place in WV.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP and I say yes but especially at WVU

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

You can say the same about just about every other skill taught at university.

language majors have a uniquely practical skill that most other majors don’t provide, though.

That’s why foreign language majors earn a whopping $54k median income lol.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.

I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.

Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.

You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.

Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.

Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.

I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.

Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.

DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.

Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.

-signed not a lawyer

It’s not that black and white.

I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.

Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.

In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.

Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.

Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.

If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.

And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.

+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.

I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .

Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.

The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.

? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.

Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?

You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.

And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.

There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.

You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.

Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.

There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.

language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.

sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.

So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?

DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.

They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.

I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.

The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.

West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.

Oh Lord this is stupid. If a college advisor said to a kid, "if you want to become a lawyer, doctor, MBA, social worker, teacher, nurse, administrator, or police officer, what you should do is get a BA in Spanish" that would be malpractice. Each of those professions had a far superior educational path than majoring in Spanish, with the sole exception being someone who wants to be a Spanish teacher.