Where do the kids who used to feed into the Ivy League go now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the NESCACs and similar LAC peers (mostly minus Amherst and Williams, which are almost on par with the Ivies) most certainly, so Colby, Bates, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Colgate, Hamilton, Swarthmore, etc.

St Andrews in Scotland - especially for the prep school kids. It seems to be a top choice for the ones who got screwed by the admissions process and wanted to choose something totally different.

NYU/USC/BU/Northeastern

Top-tier flagships - UMich, UVa, UC Berkeley, UCLA

These exactly.

[Anonymous]

Dartmouth also has that unique “plan” in which ensures a significant amount of “current” students are not enrolled in the fall or winter, further narrowing the gap between them and liberal arts colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students who apply to Penn are not applying to Williams or Swarthmore, either.

Dartmouth is an outlier among the ivies because it is more like a SLAC than any other ivy, so some students would consider Dartmouth and say Williams (although probably not many since the culture is so different).

Also, many kids from educated families at my kids’ mcps public HS applied to a swath of ivies without focus on fit/culture at each, and just waited to see where they got in.

How is Dartmouth, an R1 research university with half of its 13,500 students in graduate programs, like an SLAC?

Dartmouth College does not have 13,500 students enrolled.

Dartmouth College has a total of about 6,761 students including both undergrads (4,556) and grad (2,205) students.

Mea culpa , I got a bad link I won't list here.

Now the corrected question:

How is Dartmouth, an R1 research university with 2,205 graduate students like an SLAC?

[Anonymous]

People often lump graduate & professional schools together, but in general professional schools like medicine & law aren’t built on top of undergraduate programs in the same subjects. Whereas “graduate” programs in subjects like history or physics typically ARE extensions of their corresponding undergraduate programs.

Where it gets messy is that schools of business & education are preparing students for professions, but often ARE built atop undergrad programs in those subjects, but not always.

If you look at what “graduate” programs Dartmouth has, they few and small. Their “professional” post-bachelors programs are where many of those 2205 are, and those are business and med schools (which don’t have undergrad programs there).

The main ways that that post-bachelors students have an impact on undergrads is if they are (1)getting attention from faculty that is detracting from the attention those profs can devote to undergrads, and (2) if the post-bachelor’s students are teaching undergrad courses. Neither of these seem to be common at Dartmouth, which ls why people see it as offering an atmosphere more similar to Williams than to Cornell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People often lump graduate & professional schools together, but in general professional schools like medicine & law aren’t built on top of undergraduate programs in the same subjects. Whereas “graduate” programs in subjects like history or physics typically ARE extensions of their corresponding undergraduate programs.

Where it gets messy is that schools of business & education are preparing students for professions, but often ARE built atop undergrad programs in those subjects, but not always.

If you look at what “graduate” programs Dartmouth has, they few and small. Their “professional” post-bachelors programs are where many of those 2205 are, and those are business and med schools (which don’t have undergrad programs there).

The main ways that that post-bachelors students have an impact on undergrads is if they are (1)getting attention from faculty that is detracting from the attention those profs can devote to undergrads, and (2) if the post-bachelor’s students are teaching undergrad courses. Neither of these seem to be common at Dartmouth, which ls why people see it as offering an atmosphere more similar to Williams than to Cornell.

Great post. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Selectivity is combination of acceptance rate + student stats + yield rate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students who apply to Penn are not applying to Williams or Swarthmore, either.

Dartmouth is an outlier among the ivies because it is more like a SLAC than any other ivy, so some students would consider Dartmouth and say Williams (although probably not many since the culture is so different).

Also, many kids from educated families at my kids’ mcps public HS applied to a swath of ivies without focus on fit/culture at each, and just waited to see where they got in.

How is Dartmouth, an R1 research university with half of its 13,500 students in graduate programs, like an SLAC?

Dartmouth College does not have 13,500 students enrolled.

Dartmouth College has a total of about 6,761 students including both undergrads (4,556) and grad (2,205) students.

Mea culpa , I got a bad link I won't list here.

Now the corrected question:

How is Dartmouth, an R1 research university with 2,205 graduate students like an SLAC?

It always seems remarkable to me that Dartmouth with only roughly 2200 graduate students is an R1 research university. It's a testament to the high quality of their graduate programs. But it is also precisely their focus on undergraduate education that prompts people to make comparisons with SLACs. The only other Ivy that has a similar focus at the undergraduate level is Princeton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you look at what “graduate” programs Dartmouth has, they few and small. Their “professional” post-bachelors programs are where many of those 2205 are, and those are business and med schools (which don’t have undergrad programs there).

The main ways that that post-bachelors students have an impact on undergrads is if they are (1)getting attention from faculty that is detracting from the attention those profs can devote to undergrads, and (2) if the post-bachelor’s students are teaching undergrad courses. Neither of these seem to be common at Dartmouth, which ls why people see it as offering an atmosphere more similar to Williams than to Cornell.

Guarini School of Graduate and Advanced Studies
MASTER'S PROGRAMS
Chemistry a 4+1 program
Comparative Literature
Computer Science
Digital Musics
Engineering
Earth Sciences
Master of Arts in Liberal Studies
Master of Health Care Delivery Science
Master of Science in Health Policy and Clinical Practice
Physics and Astronomy
Quantitative Biomedical Sciences

DOCTORAL PROGRAMS
Biochemistry and Cell Biology: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Biological Sciences: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Cancer Biology: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Chemistry
Cognitive Neuroscience: Psychological and Brain Sciences
Computer Science
Earth Sciences
Ecology, Evolution, Environment and Society (EEES)
Engineering
Health Policy and Clinical Practice
Integrative Neuroscience
Mathematics
Microbiology and Immunology: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Molecular and Cellular Biology (MCB): Program includes Biochemistry and Cell Biology, Biological Sciences, Cancer Biology, Molecular and Systems Biology, and Microbiology and Immunology.
Molecular and Systems Biology: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Physics and Astronomy
Psychological and Brain Sciences
Quantitative Biomedical Sciences

Thayer school of Engineering
Doctoral Degrees
PhD

Doctor of Philosophy
Offers flexibility within and across research/program areas and prepares you for either a professional or academic position.

PhD Innovation Program
Supplements the doctoral engineering curriculum with entrepreneurial studies—the first of its kind in the nation.

PhD + Doctor of Medicine
Combines a PhD in engineering sciences with an MD from The Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth.
Master's Degrees
MS

Master of Science
Emphasizes engineering research, applied mathematics skills, and depth with breadth across disciplines.

Master of Engineering
Provides specialized depth in your field of choice through either full-time or part-time coursework.

Master of Engineering Management
Combines graduate level engineering courses with management classes at Tuck School of Business.

Tuck School of Business
MBA and Executive Programs

Geisel School of Medicine

About 1/3 of their students are grad students. A Med School, a graduate business school, a special graduate school for engineering masters and PhD, and a liberal arts grad school offering masters and PhD in many disciplines. No law school, but neither does Princeton have one.

So what exactly are they missing that makes them "an atmosphere more similar to Williams"?

[Anonymous]

Vanderbilt, Duke, Chicago and WUSTL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the NESCACs and similar LAC peers (mostly minus Amherst and Williams, which are almost on par with the Ivies) most certainly, so Colby, Bates, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Colgate, Hamilton, Swarthmore, etc.

St Andrews in Scotland - especially for the prep school kids. It seems to be a top choice for the ones who got screwed by the admissions process and wanted to choose something totally different.

NYU/USC/BU/Northeastern

Top-tier flagships - UMich, UVa, UC Berkeley, UCLA

These exactly.

And Wellesley

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Vanderbilt, Duke, Chicago and WUSTL

these T20 are peers to ivies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students who apply to Penn are not applying to Williams or Swarthmore, either.

Dartmouth is an outlier among the ivies because it is more like a SLAC than any other ivy, so some students would consider Dartmouth and say Williams (although probably not many since the culture is so different).

Also, many kids from educated families at my kids’ mcps public HS applied to a swath of ivies without focus on fit/culture at each, and just waited to see where they got in.

How is Dartmouth, an R1 research university with half of its 13,500 students in graduate programs, like an SLAC?

Dartmouth College does not have 13,500 students enrolled.

Dartmouth College has a total of about 6,761 students including both undergrads (4,556) and grad (2,205) students.

Mea culpa , I got a bad link I won't list here.

Now the corrected question:

How is Dartmouth, an R1 research university with 2,205 graduate students like an SLAC?

It always seems remarkable to me that Dartmouth with only roughly 2200 graduate students is an R1 research university. It's a testament to the high quality of their graduate programs. But it is also precisely their focus on undergraduate education that prompts people to make comparisons with SLACs. The only other Ivy that has a similar focus at the undergraduate level is Princeton.

Brown?

[Anonymous]

“So what exactly are they missing that makes them "an atmosphere more similar to Williams"? “

I know you are trying it make it look like Dartmouth has a full range of “graduate” programs, but once you filter out the ones belonging to the medical & business schools, most of what is left are taught by a few STEM departments. From what I can tell that means almost all the professors in the humanities and social sciences have few if any grad students to monitor. That’s a big difference from research powerhouses like Harvard or Michigan or even Pittsburgh.

Is it possible your concern is out of proportion due to Dartmouth being a “college”? Do you think it is a large impersonal research university masquerading as a liberal arts college? If so, you might want to read up on the interesting history behind it keeping the word “college” in its identity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“So what exactly are they missing that makes them "an atmosphere more similar to Williams"? “

I know you are trying it make it look like Dartmouth has a full range of “graduate” programs, but once you filter out the ones belonging to the medical & business schools, most of what is left are taught by a few STEM departments. From what I can tell that means almost all the professors in the humanities and social sciences have few if any grad students to monitor. That’s a big difference from research powerhouses like Harvard or Michigan or even Pittsburgh.

Is it possible your concern is out of proportion due to Dartmouth being a “college”? Do you think it is a large impersonal research university masquerading as a liberal arts college? If so, you might want to read up on the interesting history behind it keeping the word “college” in its identity.

All I care about are facts, and that information shared here is accurate so parents and students can make the right decisions for themselves and not be influenced by cocktail-party level college selection logic. Lets talk about facts.

The reason it looks like Dartmouth has a "full range of “graduate” programs" is because it has "a "full range of “graduate” programs". Do I have to paste them in again? None of these are from the medical and business' schools:

Guarini School of Graduate and Advanced Studies
MASTER'S PROGRAMS
Chemistry a 4+1 program
Comparative Literature
Computer Science
Digital Musics
Engineering
Earth Sciences
Master of Arts in Liberal Studies
Master of Health Care Delivery Science
Master of Science in Health Policy and Clinical Practice
Physics and Astronomy
Quantitative Biomedical Sciences

DOCTORAL PROGRAMS
Biochemistry and Cell Biology: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Biological Sciences: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Cancer Biology: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Chemistry
Cognitive Neuroscience: Psychological and Brain Sciences
Computer Science
Earth Sciences
Ecology, Evolution, Environment and Society (EEES)
Engineering
Health Policy and Clinical Practice
Integrative Neuroscience
Mathematics
Microbiology and Immunology: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Molecular and Cellular Biology (MCB): Program includes Biochemistry and Cell Biology, Biological Sciences, Cancer Biology, Molecular and Systems Biology, and Microbiology and Immunology.
Molecular and Systems Biology: Molecular and Cellular Biology Program
Physics and Astronomy
Psychological and Brain Sciences
Quantitative Biomedical Sciences

Dartmouth is an R1 research university. There are only 146 in the US, and Dartmouth is one. When you say "That’s a big difference from research powerhouses like Harvard or Michigan or even Pittsburgh", you are incorrect, because while Dartmouth has fewer students, all 4 are R1 graded. You might want to read up on what an R1 research university is.

The 1994 edition of the Carnegie Classification defined Research I universities as those that:

Offer a full range of baccalaureate programs
Are committed to graduate education through the doctorate
Give high priority to research
Award 50 or more doctoral degrees each year
Receive annually $40 million or more in federal support

In 2015, the Carnegie Classification System reinstated the "Research I university" designations along with "Research II" and "Research III." The current system, introduced in 2018, includes the following three categories for doctoral universities:[6]

R1: Doctoral Universities – Very high research activity
R2: Doctoral Universities – High research activity
D/PU: Doctoral/Professional Universities

In the 2018 classification, institutions were classified as either R1 or R2 if they "conferred at least 20 research/scholarship doctorates in 2016-17 and reported at least $5 million in total research expenditures."[6] A "research activity index" was then calculated that included the following measures:

Research & development (R&D) expenditures in science and engineering (S&E)
R&D expenditures in non-S&E fields
S&E research staff (postdoctoral appointees and other non-faculty research staff with doctorates)
Doctoral conferrals in humanities, social science, STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) fields, and in other fields (e.g., business, education, public policy, social work)

FYI it's bad form to condescend with things like "you might want to read up on the interesting history behind it keeping the word “college” in its identity". I understand that completely, and I bet you knew I do when you posted that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Vanderbilt, Duke, Chicago and WUSTL

Definitely Vandy, Chicago and WUSTL