Plane crash DCA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I landed at this forum after Googling my question. I apologize if this is not an acceptable means for joining in:

From the helo pilot’s point of view, if you are traveling in a direction nearly head-on with an approaching plane whose path is slowly curving to the plane’s left towards an assigned runway, isn’t a request to "pass behind the plane" dangerously ambiguous relative to whether turning left or right is a safe maneuver? If at the time of the “pass request” the approaching plane is in-sight but is headed slight left of the current path of the helo, then the helo pilot steers his craft to his right. But within a few seconds, the approaching plane’s left-curve path has crossed the old projected path of the helo and is now to the right of the helo’s path, and the helo has tried to avoid the plane’s near head-on path by choosing the wrong path to “pass behind”.

This is a great point. I do feel like ATC lacked urgency and clear direction, given the couple recordings I’ve read.

From what I have read, the tower usually reduces by one ATC at 9:30pm and then a reamining ATC manages both helicopters and planes but on this night, the other ATC left an hour early - at 8:30. It seems maybe the crash happened during this shift turnover when the ATC was still doing his job and taking over for the ATC leaving early that night.

But ATC did communicate with the helicopter a couple times. But it gave the vague direction to “go behind” the plane. But given they were flying straight on, saying go behind assumes the helicopter knew the plane was about to make a hard turn to the runway. That seems obvious- but when given directions to flying planes it seems like protocol would be to use specific direction, not behind. The helicopter and the plane aren’t on the same frequency and couldn’t communicate.

The ATC communicated that the plane was on its approach to runway 33. To go behind would mean to not cross the path between the plane and runway. The helicopter would know to keep the plane on its starboard side so that the plane was always between them and the airport.

[Anonymous]

Came out last night that the sidestep to 33 was because ATC had put multiple jets on final for 1 too close. The whole event started long before, with at least one plane refusing to switch to 33. Still primarily the helicopter fault but having 1 tower ATC was a large contributing factor. Many of us in the aviation community have felt this is the exact scenario the multiple near collisions over the last 24 months would bring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I landed at this forum after Googling my question. I apologize if this is not an acceptable means for joining in:

From the helo pilot’s point of view, if you are traveling in a direction nearly head-on with an approaching plane whose path is slowly curving to the plane’s left towards an assigned runway, isn’t a request to "pass behind the plane" dangerously ambiguous relative to whether turning left or right is a safe maneuver? If at the time of the “pass request” the approaching plane is in-sight but is headed slight left of the current path of the helo, then the helo pilot steers his craft to his right. But within a few seconds, the approaching plane’s left-curve path has crossed the old projected path of the helo and is now to the right of the helo’s path, and the helo has tried to avoid the plane’s near head-on path by choosing the wrong path to “pass behind”.

This is a great point. I do feel like ATC lacked urgency and clear direction, given the couple recordings I’ve read.

From what I have read, the tower usually reduces by one ATC at 9:30pm and then a reamining ATC manages both helicopters and planes but on this night, the other ATC left an hour early - at 8:30. It seems maybe the crash happened during this shift turnover when the ATC was still doing his job and taking over for the ATC leaving early that night.

But ATC did communicate with the helicopter a couple times. But it gave the vague direction to “go behind” the plane. But given they were flying straight on, saying go behind assumes the helicopter knew the plane was about to make a hard turn to the runway. That seems obvious- but when given directions to flying planes it seems like protocol would be to use specific direction, not behind. The helicopter and the plane aren’t on the same frequency and couldn’t communicate.

The ATC communicated that the plane was on its approach to runway 33. To go behind would mean to not cross the path between the plane and runway. The helicopter would know to keep the plane on its starboard side so that the plane was always between them and the airport.

Yes. And the Help confirmed not once but twice they they would be responsible for “visual separation” from the plane. ATC is not responsible here. He was assured by the Helo twice that the Hello definitely sees the plane and will not get too close.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He went to NC to disparage FEMA and LA to attack Newsome. I guess he can attack ATC from his desk.

That’s literally his job.

His job to attack other leaders in times of crisis? It’s not. That’s messed up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Came out last night that the sidestep to 33 was because ATC had put multiple jets on final for 1 too close. The whole event started long before, with at least one plane refusing to switch to 33. Still primarily the helicopter fault but having 1 tower ATC was a large contributing factor. Many of us in the aviation community have felt this is the exact scenario the multiple near collisions over the last 24 months would bring.

The plane had absolutely no trouble switching the approach and did so beautifully. Many experienced pilots have said it’s very common for RJs. There never should have been a Helo in the way and all would have been fine.

[Anonymous]

We fly out of both Dulles and Regan. Is Reagan Dulles father away from military flight paths? I’m getting anxious about our summer plane tickets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They were so young, and many were traveling with their moms. It’s unimaginable.

I'm a mom and my first thought was I would have wanted to be on that plane with my kids. I can't imagine otherwise.

Same. My kids always hold my hand when we land.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Came out last night that the sidestep to 33 was because ATC had put multiple jets on final for 1 too close. The whole event started long before, with at least one plane refusing to switch to 33. Still primarily the helicopter fault but having 1 tower ATC was a large contributing factor. Many of us in the aviation community have felt this is the exact scenario the multiple near collisions over the last 24 months would bring.

I read that while typically two ATC would have been doing that job (one for helicopter, one for planes) it is within the current FAA safety guidelines to combine to one person, and is commonly done. But this does seem problematic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Came out last night that the sidestep to 33 was because ATC had put multiple jets on final for 1 too close. The whole event started long before, with at least one plane refusing to switch to 33. Still primarily the helicopter fault but having 1 tower ATC was a large contributing factor. Many of us in the aviation community have felt this is the exact scenario the multiple near collisions over the last 24 months would bring.

The plane had absolutely no trouble switching the approach and did so beautifully. Many experienced pilots have said it’s very common for RJs. There never should have been a Helo in the way and all would have been fine.

Also this makes no sense. They switched to 33 because of wind. 33 crosses 1. You can’t do any more landings on 1 because you changed a plane to 33. The rate of landings would be the same. And so would the “line” to land. They’re all coming from the same direction.

[Anonymous]

Great WaPo article on recent aborted landings and general helicopter issues at DCA. It’s unlocked on Apple News (I don’t have wapo sub) and everyone should be able to read it.

https://apple.news/AnMM43t9dTBKbF-99XGG7uA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We fly out of both Dulles and Regan. Is Reagan Dulles father away from military flight paths? I’m getting anxious about our summer plane tickets.

"Regan"? Do you mean National?

Dulles does not have these congestion issues.

[Anonymous]

Still nothing in the media about the "VIP"
leg of the flight (which is why the helo had a "training" leg at this time and place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Came out last night that the sidestep to 33 was because ATC had put multiple jets on final for 1 too close. The whole event started long before, with at least one plane refusing to switch to 33. Still primarily the helicopter fault but having 1 tower ATC was a large contributing factor. Many of us in the aviation community have felt this is the exact scenario the multiple near collisions over the last 24 months would bring.

The plane had absolutely no trouble switching the approach and did so beautifully. Many experienced pilots have said it’s very common for RJs. There never should have been a Helo in the way and all would have been fine.

Also this makes no sense. They switched to 33 because of wind. 33 crosses 1. You can’t do any more landings on 1 because you changed a plane to 33. The rate of landings would be the same. And so would the “line” to land. They’re all coming from the same direction.

They didn’t switch to 33 because of wind. They switched to 33 because too many plans were lined up on final for 1. ATC tried to get the immediate previous plane to switch to 33 but they said they couldn’t. It does spread the planes out a bit. There was also an aircraft taking off on 1 at nearly the same time. You should watch the video posted recently with the ATC audio overlayed on to the radar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Still nothing in the media about the "VIP"
leg of the flight (which is why the helo had a "training" leg at this time and place.

And there may never be. That’s their story and they’re sticking to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They were so young, and many were traveling with their moms. It’s unimaginable.

I'm a mom and my first thought was I would have wanted to be on that plane with my kids. I can't imagine otherwise.

Such an awful choice because they probably have kids at home too.