Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Let me explain again. A union’s assertion that a workplace action is a “subject for mandatory bargaining” does NOT mean they support that action. It means that they are demanding the opportunity to bargain over it if the employer intends to take the action. We have plenty of evidence including in the form of express statements from AFT and other unions that WTU most likely opposes mandatory vaccination. And of course they NEVER mention mandatory vaccination in their demands - just masking etc. The overwhelming inference here is that WTU opposes/would oppose mandatory vaccination.

You are simply not telling the truth. The statement from the AFT could not be more clear in stating that it supports a mandate being subject to negotiations. That does not mean the organization opposes a mandate. You are welcome to state your opinion on the subject, but when you claim that you are providing facts instead of opinion you are wrong.

It is obvious that the WTU strongly supports vaccination. The anecdotal evidence we have seen posted by teachers in this forum is that teachers are being vaccinated at a very high rate. If or when DCPS proposes a mandate, the WTU is clearly open to negotiating it. Those are the facts.

If WTU "strongly supports vaccination," as you suggest, then they could easily ask their members (privately) if they have or have not been vaccinated, then report an overall percentage of how many teachers have been vaccinated to the public so that parents who have now been told our vaccinated kids now have to mask up in school in the fall will not assume it's to protect unvaxxed teachers. We simply have no idea how many DCPS teachers have been vaccinated. None. And after a year of dissembling and bad faith arguing by the Mayor and WTU, and with some of our kids having gone more than a year without a single in-person class at their DCPS school, parents don't trust any of them. Nor should we.

It is not the WTU's role to provide information to parents. That is for DCPS to do and the WTU wants to work with DCPS on a survey. Moreover, there are a lot of non-WTU members in the schools who vaccination status should also concern you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Let me explain again. A union’s assertion that a workplace action is a “subject for mandatory bargaining” does NOT mean they support that action. It means that they are demanding the opportunity to bargain over it if the employer intends to take the action. We have plenty of evidence including in the form of express statements from AFT and other unions that WTU most likely opposes mandatory vaccination. And of course they NEVER mention mandatory vaccination in their demands - just masking etc. The overwhelming inference here is that WTU opposes/would oppose mandatory vaccination.

You are simply not telling the truth. The statement from the AFT could not be more clear in stating that it supports a mandate being subject to negotiations. That does not mean the organization opposes a mandate. You are welcome to state your opinion on the subject, but when you claim that you are providing facts instead of opinion you are wrong.

It is obvious that the WTU strongly supports vaccination. The anecdotal evidence we have seen posted by teachers in this forum is that teachers are being vaccinated at a very high rate. If or when DCPS proposes a mandate, the WTU is clearly open to negotiating it. Those are the facts.

If WTU "strongly supports vaccination," as you suggest, then they could easily ask their members (privately) if they have or have not been vaccinated, then report an overall percentage of how many teachers have been vaccinated to the public so that parents who have now been told our vaccinated kids now have to mask up in school in the fall will not assume it's to protect unvaxxed teachers. We simply have no idea how many DCPS teachers have been vaccinated. None. And after a year of dissembling and bad faith arguing by the Mayor and WTU, and with some of our kids having gone more than a year without a single in-person class at their DCPS school, parents don't trust any of them. Nor should we.

How do you propose they ask their members privately? I can tell you that they get about 15% response rate on surveys sent out electronically during the school year. What do you think will happen when they email something out over summer?
Trust is a choice and you are choosing to not have it. That's on you

since when do we rely on “trust” for vaccination? I feel like people are forgetting that there are dozens of vaccinations all kids must have to go to school - and we have to document that with medical records every year!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Let me explain again. A union’s assertion that a workplace action is a “subject for mandatory bargaining” does NOT mean they support that action. It means that they are demanding the opportunity to bargain over it if the employer intends to take the action. We have plenty of evidence including in the form of express statements from AFT and other unions that WTU most likely opposes mandatory vaccination. And of course they NEVER mention mandatory vaccination in their demands - just masking etc. The overwhelming inference here is that WTU opposes/would oppose mandatory vaccination.

You are simply not telling the truth. The statement from the AFT could not be more clear in stating that it supports a mandate being subject to negotiations. That does not mean the organization opposes a mandate. You are welcome to state your opinion on the subject, but when you claim that you are providing facts instead of opinion you are wrong.

It is obvious that the WTU strongly supports vaccination. The anecdotal evidence we have seen posted by teachers in this forum is that teachers are being vaccinated at a very high rate. If or when DCPS proposes a mandate, the WTU is clearly open to negotiating it. Those are the facts.

If WTU "strongly supports vaccination," as you suggest, then they could easily ask their members (privately) if they have or have not been vaccinated, then report an overall percentage of how many teachers have been vaccinated to the public so that parents who have now been told our vaccinated kids now have to mask up in school in the fall will not assume it's to protect unvaxxed teachers. We simply have no idea how many DCPS teachers have been vaccinated. None. And after a year of dissembling and bad faith arguing by the Mayor and WTU, and with some of our kids having gone more than a year without a single in-person class at their DCPS school, parents don't trust any of them. Nor should we.

How do you propose they ask their members privately? I can tell you that they get about 15% response rate on surveys sent out electronically during the school year. What do you think will happen when they email something out over summer?
Trust is a choice and you are choosing to not have it. That's on you

since when do we rely on “trust” for vaccination? I feel like people are forgetting that there are dozens of vaccinations all kids must have to go to school - and we have to document that with medical records every year!

OR you can contact DOH and get a piece of paper that says you opt out for “religious reasons” and there’s nothing anyone can do to keep your kid out of school. That’s where we need to pressure the City Council to change - there are lots of clinics that offer free/sliding scale immunizations for kids (for example, the Mary’s Center) so it’s really not a financial issue, just people being too damn lazy to get their kids vaccinated when they can choose the easy opt-out to the detriment of all.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Let me explain again. A union’s assertion that a workplace action is a “subject for mandatory bargaining” does NOT mean they support that action. It means that they are demanding the opportunity to bargain over it if the employer intends to take the action. We have plenty of evidence including in the form of express statements from AFT and other unions that WTU most likely opposes mandatory vaccination. And of course they NEVER mention mandatory vaccination in their demands - just masking etc. The overwhelming inference here is that WTU opposes/would oppose mandatory vaccination.

You are simply not telling the truth. The statement from the AFT could not be more clear in stating that it supports a mandate being subject to negotiations. That does not mean the organization opposes a mandate. You are welcome to state your opinion on the subject, but when you claim that you are providing facts instead of opinion you are wrong.

It is obvious that the WTU strongly supports vaccination. The anecdotal evidence we have seen posted by teachers in this forum is that teachers are being vaccinated at a very high rate. If or when DCPS proposes a mandate, the WTU is clearly open to negotiating it. Those are the facts.

If WTU "strongly supports vaccination," as you suggest, then they could easily ask their members (privately) if they have or have not been vaccinated, then report an overall percentage of how many teachers have been vaccinated to the public so that parents who have now been told our vaccinated kids now have to mask up in school in the fall will not assume it's to protect unvaxxed teachers. We simply have no idea how many DCPS teachers have been vaccinated. None. And after a year of dissembling and bad faith arguing by the Mayor and WTU, and with some of our kids having gone more than a year without a single in-person class at their DCPS school, parents don't trust any of them. Nor should we.

It is not the WTU's role to provide information to parents. That is for DCPS to do and the WTU wants to work with DCPS on a survey. Moreover, there are a lot of non-WTU members in the schools who vaccination status should also concern you.

+1

There are lots of adults in school buildings around kids and interacting with kids. A good portion are WTU but many are not. Even if 80% of WTU members are vaccinated, that might be about 70% of adults in the building.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Let me explain again. A union’s assertion that a workplace action is a “subject for mandatory bargaining” does NOT mean they support that action. It means that they are demanding the opportunity to bargain over it if the employer intends to take the action. We have plenty of evidence including in the form of express statements from AFT and other unions that WTU most likely opposes mandatory vaccination. And of course they NEVER mention mandatory vaccination in their demands - just masking etc. The overwhelming inference here is that WTU opposes/would oppose mandatory vaccination.

You are simply not telling the truth. The statement from the AFT could not be more clear in stating that it supports a mandate being subject to negotiations. That does not mean the organization opposes a mandate. You are welcome to state your opinion on the subject, but when you claim that you are providing facts instead of opinion you are wrong.

It is obvious that the WTU strongly supports vaccination. The anecdotal evidence we have seen posted by teachers in this forum is that teachers are being vaccinated at a very high rate. If or when DCPS proposes a mandate, the WTU is clearly open to negotiating it. Those are the facts.

If WTU "strongly supports vaccination," as you suggest, then they could easily ask their members (privately) if they have or have not been vaccinated, then report an overall percentage of how many teachers have been vaccinated to the public so that parents who have now been told our vaccinated kids now have to mask up in school in the fall will not assume it's to protect unvaxxed teachers. We simply have no idea how many DCPS teachers have been vaccinated. None. And after a year of dissembling and bad faith arguing by the Mayor and WTU, and with some of our kids having gone more than a year without a single in-person class at their DCPS school, parents don't trust any of them. Nor should we.

It is not the WTU's role to provide information to parents. That is for DCPS to do and the WTU wants to work with DCPS on a survey. Moreover, there are a lot of non-WTU members in the schools who vaccination status should also concern you.

+1

There are lots of adults in school buildings around kids and interacting with kids. A good portion are WTU but many are not. Even if 80% of WTU members are vaccinated, that might be about 70% of adults in the building.

Right, all staff should be subject to mandatory vax, by DC law or in collective bargaining (not sure to what extent DC law and impose it without bargaining.)

Hopefully DC will follow the “vax or test” mandate of other states.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Let me explain again. A union’s assertion that a workplace action is a “subject for mandatory bargaining” does NOT mean they support that action. It means that they are demanding the opportunity to bargain over it if the employer intends to take the action. We have plenty of evidence including in the form of express statements from AFT and other unions that WTU most likely opposes mandatory vaccination. And of course they NEVER mention mandatory vaccination in their demands - just masking etc. The overwhelming inference here is that WTU opposes/would oppose mandatory vaccination.

You are simply not telling the truth. The statement from the AFT could not be more clear in stating that it supports a mandate being subject to negotiations. That does not mean the organization opposes a mandate. You are welcome to state your opinion on the subject, but when you claim that you are providing facts instead of opinion you are wrong.

It is obvious that the WTU strongly supports vaccination. The anecdotal evidence we have seen posted by teachers in this forum is that teachers are being vaccinated at a very high rate. If or when DCPS proposes a mandate, the WTU is clearly open to negotiating it. Those are the facts.

If WTU "strongly supports vaccination," as you suggest, then they could easily ask their members (privately) if they have or have not been vaccinated, then report an overall percentage of how many teachers have been vaccinated to the public so that parents who have now been told our vaccinated kids now have to mask up in school in the fall will not assume it's to protect unvaxxed teachers. We simply have no idea how many DCPS teachers have been vaccinated. None. And after a year of dissembling and bad faith arguing by the Mayor and WTU, and with some of our kids having gone more than a year without a single in-person class at their DCPS school, parents don't trust any of them. Nor should we.

It is not the WTU's role to provide information to parents. That is for DCPS to do and the WTU wants to work with DCPS on a survey. Moreover, there are a lot of non-WTU members in the schools who vaccination status should also concern you.

Jeff, are you ok? It's not like you to get into the weeds like this. I say this without any sarcasm.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The definition of spin is trying to claim that WTU silently supports mandatory vaccination. I mean, really. Is that what you believe?

I have not said such a thing. What I have said is that the WTU is willing to negotiate a mandate. I believe that if the organization was not open to a mandate, it would simply refuse to negotiate it. But, that is my opinion (see how easy it is to make such a distinction?). As a factual matter, neither you nor I know what the WTU's position in a negotiation would be.

Ok Jeff, this is my last go-around with you then I promise to drop it out of respect for your forum and the fact that you have engaged me rather than deleting my posts.

You are wrong about labor law and how union bargaining works. You don’t understand it. If a union “refuses to negotiate” a matter of mandatory bargaining, that is a breach of their duty to bargain in good faith. The union cannot just say “no, we will not negotiate that.” What “mandatory subject for bargaining” means is that both sides HAVE to negotiate in good faith.

I suppose you genuinely believe WTU’s position on mandatory vaccines is unknown and cannot be discerned from other facts. I think that’s entirely against the weight of the evidence, but at least we are clear on the disagreement.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, are you ok? It's not like you to get into the weeds like this. I say this without any sarcasm.

I am a parent of a DCPS student so why shouldn't I get into the weeds? Beyond that, after a nearly a year and a half of seeing teachers blamed for every evil under the sun, I think I reached my limit. I am constantly amazed that posters here seem to believe that teachers are nothing but stupid lazy, incompetent, slackers (and now anti-vaxxers to boot), but want them to care and educate their children. I understand parents are frustrated -- I'm frustrated too -- but taking it out on teachers and the WTU is not the solution.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, are you ok? It's not like you to get into the weeds like this. I say this without any sarcasm.

I am a parent of a DCPS student so why shouldn't I get into the weeds? Beyond that, after a nearly a year and a half of seeing teachers blamed for every evil under the sun, I think I reached my limit. I am constantly amazed that posters here seem to believe that teachers are nothing but stupid lazy, incompetent, slackers (and now anti-vaxxers to boot), but want them to care and educate their children. I understand parents are frustrated -- I'm frustrated too -- but taking it out on teachers and the WTU is not the solution.

Ok. I just felt like I ought to check.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The definition of spin is trying to claim that WTU silently supports mandatory vaccination. I mean, really. Is that what you believe?

I have not said such a thing. What I have said is that the WTU is willing to negotiate a mandate. I believe that if the organization was not open to a mandate, it would simply refuse to negotiate it. But, that is my opinion (see how easy it is to make such a distinction?). As a factual matter, neither you nor I know what the WTU's position in a negotiation would be.

Ok Jeff, this is my last go-around with you then I promise to drop it out of respect for your forum and the fact that you have engaged me rather than deleting my posts.

You are wrong about labor law and how union bargaining works. You don’t understand it. If a union “refuses to negotiate” a matter of mandatory bargaining, that is a breach of their duty to bargain in good faith. The union cannot just say “no, we will not negotiate that.” What “mandatory subject for bargaining” means is that both sides HAVE to negotiate in good faith.

I suppose you genuinely believe WTU’s position on mandatory vaccines is unknown and cannot be discerned from other facts. I think that’s entirely against the weight of the evidence, but at least we are clear on the disagreement.

That is all well and good, but it doesn't even matter. It is unequivocally NOT the role of the WTU to impose a vaccine mandate. That is on DCPS and the District government, and thus far, Mayor Bowser has shown no interest in a vaccine mandate. She or the Chancellor could have started negotiations with WTU, or could have ordered vaccines for the myriad of non-union employees under her authority. In all of her public statements, the President of the WTU has advocated for members and other staff to be vaccinated on their own. We do not know for sure where she, as the chief negotiator for the union, falls in terms of a mandate, but its fairly irrelevant at this time. WHY would the WTU walk itself into a political minefield by bringing up a topic that will go absolutely nowhere until the Mayor is interested in a mandate.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
You are wrong about labor law and how union bargaining works. You don’t understand it. If a union “refuses to negotiate” a matter of mandatory bargaining, that is a breach of their duty to bargain in good faith. The union cannot just say “no, we will not negotiate that.” What “mandatory subject for bargaining” means is that both sides HAVE to negotiate in good faith.

It's interesting that you are explaining the phrase "mandatory subject for bargaining" to me since the phrase "mandatory subject of negotiation" appears in the AFT statement that I posted twice with that phrase bolded each time. I believe the WTU will follow the law and negotiate in good faith. You believe the WTU will not follow the law and will not negotiate in good faith. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, are you ok? It's not like you to get into the weeds like this. I say this without any sarcasm.

I am a parent of a DCPS student so why shouldn't I get into the weeds? Beyond that, after a nearly a year and a half of seeing teachers blamed for every evil under the sun, I think I reached my limit. I am constantly amazed that posters here seem to believe that teachers are nothing but stupid lazy, incompetent, slackers (and now anti-vaxxers to boot), but want them to care and educate their children. I understand parents are frustrated -- I'm frustrated too -- but taking it out on teachers and the WTU is not the solution.

that’s a caricature of my position here, Jeff. School closure was very harmful to my SN child, and not justified by public health knowledge in my opinion. It is not “teacher bashing” to be upset about that. It is not “WTU bashing” to ask why they are not affirmatively supporting the single most effective way to keep schools open (mandatory vax) and instead focusing on measures that shift the burden onto my child (cohorts, distancing, masking, and quarantines/closures). And of course there was a LOT of extremely toxic parent bashing on here — I was called a “bad parent” many times, told that my SN kid’s struggles were my fault, I only wanted free daycare, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, are you ok? It's not like you to get into the weeds like this. I say this without any sarcasm.

I am a parent of a DCPS student so why shouldn't I get into the weeds? Beyond that, after a nearly a year and a half of seeing teachers blamed for every evil under the sun, I think I reached my limit. I am constantly amazed that posters here seem to believe that teachers are nothing but stupid lazy, incompetent, slackers (and now anti-vaxxers to boot), but want them to care and educate their children. I understand parents are frustrated -- I'm frustrated too -- but taking it out on teachers and the WTU is not the solution.

that’s a caricature of my position here, Jeff. School closure was very harmful to my SN child, and not justified by public health knowledge in my opinion. It is not “teacher bashing” to be upset about that. It is not “WTU bashing” to ask why they are not affirmatively supporting the single most effective way to keep schools open (mandatory vax) and instead focusing on measures that shift the burden onto my child (cohorts, distancing, masking, and quarantines/closures). And of course there was a LOT of extremely toxic parent bashing on here — I was called a “bad parent” many times, told that my SN kid’s struggles were my fault, I only wanted free daycare, etc.

good point

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, are you ok? It's not like you to get into the weeds like this. I say this without any sarcasm.

I am a parent of a DCPS student so why shouldn't I get into the weeds? Beyond that, after a nearly a year and a half of seeing teachers blamed for every evil under the sun, I think I reached my limit. I am constantly amazed that posters here seem to believe that teachers are nothing but stupid lazy, incompetent, slackers (and now anti-vaxxers to boot), but want them to care and educate their children. I understand parents are frustrated -- I'm frustrated too -- but taking it out on teachers and the WTU is not the solution.

that’s a caricature of my position here, Jeff. School closure was very harmful to my SN child, and not justified by public health knowledge in my opinion. It is not “teacher bashing” to be upset about that. It is not “WTU bashing” to ask why they are not affirmatively supporting the single most effective way to keep schools open (mandatory vax) and instead focusing on measures that shift the burden onto my child (cohorts, distancing, masking, and quarantines/closures). And of course there was a LOT of extremely toxic parent bashing on here — I was called a “bad parent” many times, told that my SN kid’s struggles were my fault, I only wanted free daycare, etc.

Actually, bashing teachers -- even if you feel it is justified -- is still "teacher bashing". You are welcome to ask why the WTU is not affirmatively supporting a mandate. The answer to that has been provided many times: DCPS has not proposed a mandate. But, that is not what you have been posting. Rather, you have repeatedly claimed that the WTU opposes a mandate. That is not supported by available facts.

As for posts about bad parents, I have spent a huge amount of time and effort removing them. Sadly, most of those appear to come from other parents. So, blaming teachers for them is another case of misdirected anger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, are you ok? It's not like you to get into the weeds like this. I say this without any sarcasm.

I am a parent of a DCPS student so why shouldn't I get into the weeds? Beyond that, after a nearly a year and a half of seeing teachers blamed for every evil under the sun, I think I reached my limit. I am constantly amazed that posters here seem to believe that teachers are nothing but stupid lazy, incompetent, slackers (and now anti-vaxxers to boot), but want them to care and educate their children. I understand parents are frustrated -- I'm frustrated too -- but taking it out on teachers and the WTU is not the solution.

that’s a caricature of my position here, Jeff. School closure was very harmful to my SN child, and not justified by public health knowledge in my opinion. It is not “teacher bashing” to be upset about that. It is not “WTU bashing” to ask why they are not affirmatively supporting the single most effective way to keep schools open (mandatory vax) and instead focusing on measures that shift the burden onto my child (cohorts, distancing, masking, and quarantines/closures). And of course there was a LOT of extremely toxic parent bashing on here — I was called a “bad parent” many times, told that my SN kid’s struggles were my fault, I only wanted free daycare, etc.

Very well said. Many parents feel similarly. I think a lot of us aren't simply blaming teachers and the union. It was institutional failure on many levels, from the mayor on down, and unfortunately the unions and many teachers used the opportunity to "never let a crisis go to waste" and abuse medical leave, etc to avoid doing their jobs. Many teachers also bent over backward to help students, but the evidence overwhelmingly shows that distance learning and school closures as DC did them were very very harmful to kids. Plenty of other public school districts in this country figured out how to safely reopen schools. DC failed. That failure should not be forgotten nor excused away.