Neil Gaiman article in Vulture

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

I do hope Gaiman’s over and his publishers dropped them. But about these impacted fans….good grief. What wounded them besides presumably your parenting with respect to your DD to make them into super fans of Neil Gaiman? Where this horrible but fundamentally unsurprising story of him raping and abusing and manipulating women is as real and important to them as their own romantic relationships (no doubt very troubled, for those who have ever had one) or economic prospects? Real question here.

There is always something incredibly wrong with people who identify that strongly with an author’s work, where it becomes a part of their identity. They are always damaged, they have poor boundaries and that lack of sense and proportionality is something they perversely wind up cherishing. When you have standards in parenting and in education, you’re better equipped to see a charlatan and not waste your time there.

DP. This is an interesting perspective. His work is undeniably powerful. I had a normal (boring) childhood and read some of his work when I was younger, and some when I was older. He's not my favorite author but I liked his stuff well enough. You are attacking those who are/were his fans as naive and troubled, and as willing dupes. As though, because his work is powerful, they should have known better.

This is not a view I have seen before.

[Anonymous]

To the question of whether Gaiman will be rehabbed, I think a lot of factors weigh against it:

1) As others have said, his fans tend to be informed and engaged consumers of not just news but also gender and social justice theory. Moreover, his superfans KNOW they tend to be a little socially awkward or have overcome trauma, so the fact that he abused folks from that fan base hits even harder.

2) Not just his fans, but the directors, screenwriters, and actors who chose to participate in his projects tend to be pretty vocal defenders of vulnerable groups.

3) He was always a little fringe. While his fans base was avid, this is not actually a Bill Cosby universal fame sort of situation. The rehabilitation machine won't kick in for him the way it would for a more conventionally popular writer/celebrity.

[Anonymous]

What's up with the texts she sent where she reassured him it was not only consensual, but "wonderful?" Everyone involved here is horrible. The woman wants money and he and his wife are scum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's up with the texts she sent where she reassured him it was not only consensual, but "wonderful?" Everyone involved here is horrible. The woman wants money and he and his wife are scum.

She was obviously badly traumatized, and economically dependent on Palmer and Gaiman in that she was actively working for them without pay and hoping that she might get paid if she continued the situation.

It's terrible all around, but I really don't get the impression she is looking for a payout. If she were, she would not have approached Palmer and would have kept better notes/screenshots. I think she's just someone who was broken coming into this situation, and that broken-ness was exploited by Palmer and Gaiman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

I do hope Gaiman’s over and his publishers dropped them. But about these impacted fans….good grief. What wounded them besides presumably your parenting with respect to your DD to make them into super fans of Neil Gaiman? Where this horrible but fundamentally unsurprising story of him raping and abusing and manipulating women is as real and important to them as their own romantic relationships (no doubt very troubled, for those who have ever had one) or economic prospects? Real question here.

There is always something incredibly wrong with people who identify that strongly with an author’s work, where it becomes a part of their identity. They are always damaged, they have poor boundaries and that lack of sense and proportionality is something they perversely wind up cherishing. When you have standards in parenting and in education, you’re better equipped to see a charlatan and not waste your time there.

Hilarious that you morphed my adult DD into a "super fan" and chose to impugn our parenting, to construct a fiction that will fit your narrative! She's been a fan, especially of adaptations on TV, but you're too sold on your own idea of cultish fans that you can only imagine that type of devotion. Gaiman's work is not "part of her identity," as you insist, but she is indeed furious at his setting himself up as a champion of women and turning out to be so far in the opposite direction. Your implication that my daughter and her smart, well-read friends are "damaged" and have "poor boundaries" is such a ludicrous exaggeration. I referred to how they were fans of his work but you seem to believe "fans" can only be cultists. Yes, he has his wildly cultish fans but you are so deep in your belief that ALL fans are boundary-free nitwits that you're projecting tha onto my post. You do still underestimate the way that some fans can indeed see the charlatan and will call him out on it, And will not accept any rehabilitation. Please get help for your narrowness and intense need to project it.

[Anonymous]

I think the specificity and the ick-factor of the allegations, plus the implication of child abuse, are going to keep him from being rehabilitated easily. If it was just a he said/she said situation with the nanny in a bathtub, it would be a lot easier for him to shake off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

Wait. You think that Gaiman cares at all about his female fans? He’s been telegraphing for years what he thinks of them, and it is not good. Gaiman’s redemption arc won’t include those fans; he’s never cared for them to begin with. Their fury is irrelevant to him.

What will happen is this, assuming no criminal complaint is filed: He will go silent for awhile except for vague reference to “doing work” and “reflecting.” He will wait for the divorce case to settle. In the meantime, the PR firm he hires will start quietly digging for incriminating information about the accusers. Since these poor women are already vulnerable and damaged, it probably won’t be too hard to find information that can be twisted to make them look bad in the usual way women are discredited.

Anonymous posts about the accusers will start quietly mushrooming in a year or two, first on explicitly red-pill forums and then places like Reddit. “I knew one of the accusers when she was in high school. She slept with two buddies of mine at the same time but told each they were exclusive.” “Bro I just realized that the bathtub chick Gaiman banged has an OF account.” That sort of stuff. The profiles of the people dropping it will be curiously devoid of posting history, and go just up to the line of libel but not cross it. The misogynist portion of Gaiman’s base — and that is a big portion — will run with the posts, and the accounts will quietly be deleted a few months later. By then the accusations will have a life of their own.

That will go on for a few years, just long enough to activate large base of male Gaiman fans who will have convinced themselves that their hero Gaiman was unfairly accused and also get the support of some damaged female pick-mes. It will be enough to convince a publisher.

He will, in a few years, drop hints about how his work on himself has led him to look inward and focus his art on men doing “hard work.” It will be vague, but then in a few years after that, rumors will start about a new Gaiman novel, focusing on the experience of men.

And there you go: a ready-made audience primed to read a grotesquely misogynist and simultaneously self-adulating novel. Your daughter’s fury won’t matter at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

I do hope Gaiman’s over and his publishers dropped them. But about these impacted fans….good grief. What wounded them besides presumably your parenting with respect to your DD to make them into super fans of Neil Gaiman? Where this horrible but fundamentally unsurprising story of him raping and abusing and manipulating women is as real and important to them as their own romantic relationships (no doubt very troubled, for those who have ever had one) or economic prospects? Real question here.

There is always something incredibly wrong with people who identify that strongly with an author’s work, where it becomes a part of their identity. They are always damaged, they have poor boundaries and that lack of sense and proportionality is something they perversely wind up cherishing. When you have standards in parenting and in education, you’re better equipped to see a charlatan and not waste your time there.

Hilarious that you morphed my adult DD into a "super fan" and chose to impugn our parenting, to construct a fiction that will fit your narrative! She's been a fan, especially of adaptations on TV, but you're too sold on your own idea of cultish fans that you can only imagine that type of devotion. Gaiman's work is not "part of her identity," as you insist, but she is indeed furious at his setting himself up as a champion of women and turning out to be so far in the opposite direction. Your implication that my daughter and her smart, well-read friends are "damaged" and have "poor boundaries" is such a ludicrous exaggeration. I referred to how they were fans of his work but you seem to believe "fans" can only be cultists. Yes, he has his wildly cultish fans but you are so deep in your belief that ALL fans are boundary-free nitwits that you're projecting tha onto my post. You do still underestimate the way that some fans can indeed see the charlatan and will call him out on it, And will not accept any rehabilitation. Please get help for your narrowness and intense need to project it.

Hit dogs holler and there’s a reason so many of his fans are immature, so.

I’ll get help, absolutely. Good luck to your terribly upset DD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the specificity and the ick-factor of the allegations, plus the implication of child abuse, are going to keep him from being rehabilitated easily. If it was just a he said/she said situation with the nanny in a bathtub, it would be a lot easier for him to shake off.

The sex stuff with the son is similar to what eventually led to Anthony Weiner’s many and sundry issues and conviction. Once it was shown that he took a boner pic for a potential lover with his son asleep but in frame, it was likely difficult to argue that he didn’t know he was being sexually inappropriate with a minor at a later date.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

I do hope Gaiman’s over and his publishers dropped them. But about these impacted fans….good grief. What wounded them besides presumably your parenting with respect to your DD to make them into super fans of Neil Gaiman? Where this horrible but fundamentally unsurprising story of him raping and abusing and manipulating women is as real and important to them as their own romantic relationships (no doubt very troubled, for those who have ever had one) or economic prospects? Real question here.

There is always something incredibly wrong with people who identify that strongly with an author’s work, where it becomes a part of their identity. They are always damaged, they have poor boundaries and that lack of sense and proportionality is something they perversely wind up cherishing. When you have standards in parenting and in education, you’re better equipped to see a charlatan and not waste your time there.

DP. Listen lady, we’re all damaged in one way or another and to act like *book lovers,* of all people, are in some wildly egregious category seems bizarre. Half of the country voted for a rapist as president, give it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

Wait. You think that Gaiman cares at all about his female fans? He’s been telegraphing for years what he thinks of them, and it is not good. Gaiman’s redemption arc won’t include those fans; he’s never cared for them to begin with. Their fury is irrelevant to him.

What will happen is this, assuming no criminal complaint is filed: He will go silent for awhile except for vague reference to “doing work” and “reflecting.” He will wait for the divorce case to settle. In the meantime, the PR firm he hires will start quietly digging for incriminating information about the accusers. Since these poor women are already vulnerable and damaged, it probably won’t be too hard to find information that can be twisted to make them look bad in the usual way women are discredited.

Anonymous posts about the accusers will start quietly mushrooming in a year or two, first on explicitly red-pill forums and then places like Reddit. “I knew one of the accusers when she was in high school. She slept with two buddies of mine at the same time but told each they were exclusive.” “Bro I just realized that the bathtub chick Gaiman banged has an OF account.” That sort of stuff. The profiles of the people dropping it will be curiously devoid of posting history, and go just up to the line of libel but not cross it. The misogynist portion of Gaiman’s base — and that is a big portion — will run with the posts, and the accounts will quietly be deleted a few months later. By then the accusations will have a life of their own.

That will go on for a few years, just long enough to activate large base of male Gaiman fans who will have convinced themselves that their hero Gaiman was unfairly accused and also get the support of some damaged female pick-mes. It will be enough to convince a publisher.

He will, in a few years, drop hints about how his work on himself has led him to look inward and focus his art on men doing “hard work.” It will be vague, but then in a few years after that, rumors will start about a new Gaiman novel, focusing on the experience of men.

And there you go: a ready-made audience primed to read a grotesquely misogynist and simultaneously self-adulating novel. Your daughter’s fury won’t matter at all.

Shudder. I think you’re right. Get a clue, “wounded” ladies and their too-late mama bears.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

I do hope Gaiman’s over and his publishers dropped them. But about these impacted fans….good grief. What wounded them besides presumably your parenting with respect to your DD to make them into super fans of Neil Gaiman? Where this horrible but fundamentally unsurprising story of him raping and abusing and manipulating women is as real and important to them as their own romantic relationships (no doubt very troubled, for those who have ever had one) or economic prospects? Real question here.

There is always something incredibly wrong with people who identify that strongly with an author’s work, where it becomes a part of their identity. They are always damaged, they have poor boundaries and that lack of sense and proportionality is something they perversely wind up cherishing. When you have standards in parenting and in education, you’re better equipped to see a charlatan and not waste your time there.

DP. Listen lady, we’re all damaged in one way or another and to act like *book lovers,* of all people, are in some wildly egregious category seems bizarre. Half of the country voted for a rapist as president, give it up.

You should read better books and just…grow up. He didn’t betray you on a personal level through his assaults and rapes. I know it’ll get reported but some of the fan wanking reaction is kind of…wanky. Comes off more than a little “huh wonder if he’d have made a pass at meeee.” (I know some of you know it’s true.) It’s just pathetic, and your Hail Mary invocation of Trumpism isn’t in fact germane to the pick-me pathos of this rapist’s fans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

Wait. You think that Gaiman cares at all about his female fans? He’s been telegraphing for years what he thinks of them, and it is not good. Gaiman’s redemption arc won’t include those fans; he’s never cared for them to begin with. Their fury is irrelevant to him.

What will happen is this, assuming no criminal complaint is filed: He will go silent for awhile except for vague reference to “doing work” and “reflecting.” He will wait for the divorce case to settle. In the meantime, the PR firm he hires will start quietly digging for incriminating information about the accusers. Since these poor women are already vulnerable and damaged, it probably won’t be too hard to find information that can be twisted to make them look bad in the usual way women are discredited.

Anonymous posts about the accusers will start quietly mushrooming in a year or two, first on explicitly red-pill forums and then places like Reddit. “I knew one of the accusers when she was in high school. She slept with two buddies of mine at the same time but told each they were exclusive.” “Bro I just realized that the bathtub chick Gaiman banged has an OF account.” That sort of stuff. The profiles of the people dropping it will be curiously devoid of posting history, and go just up to the line of libel but not cross it. The misogynist portion of Gaiman’s base — and that is a big portion — will run with the posts, and the accounts will quietly be deleted a few months later. By then the accusations will have a life of their own.

That will go on for a few years, just long enough to activate large base of male Gaiman fans who will have convinced themselves that their hero Gaiman was unfairly accused and also get the support of some damaged female pick-mes. It will be enough to convince a publisher.

He will, in a few years, drop hints about how his work on himself has led him to look inward and focus his art on men doing “hard work.” It will be vague, but then in a few years after that, rumors will start about a new Gaiman novel, focusing on the experience of men.

And there you go: a ready-made audience primed to read a grotesquely misogynist and simultaneously self-adulating novel. Your daughter’s fury won’t matter at all.

Shudder. I think you’re right. Get a clue, “wounded” ladies and their too-late mama bears.

DP. I think that PP can write some half-decent fiction. I don't think she has a clue about real people though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Amanda Palmer is getting enough hate on this thread. She not only served him up vulnerable young women, she was also complicit in making them vulnerable. I was so angry that nanny wasn’t paid until months later. She had no support system and no money- the power differential there would make it very difficult for her to say no.

Amanda Palmer also love bombed fans to get them to do her favors and often didn’t pay. While people were probably excited by her fame, it’s a shitty thing to do. That pales in comparison to some of the other allegations.

I find it fascinating comparing the level of hate (and death/rape threats, etc) that JK Rowling gets compared to the lack of response to Gaiman and Palmer’s actions.

What's fascinating about it? Gaiman's stuff has only been recently made publuc. I find both to be gross people who need to shut up, leave social media and do some self-reflection.

Wow insane comparison. Gaiman is an abuser -- he physically and psychologically targeted and harmed these women. JK Rowling has what I believe are misguided ideas about transgendered people. That's not the same.

JK Rowling is, at heart, trying to safeguard vulnerable women. People can disagree with her beliefs but she puts her money where her mouth is as far as protecting vulnerable women.

Gaiman, on the other hand, is alleged to have raped vulnerable women and exploited his child in a grotesque manner. The idea of anyone trying to equate the two is shocking.

PP here and I agree with you. It's actually a bizarrely comical comparison because it's like what are the standards for successful, famous women versus successful, famous men? Well for women we need them to share all our beliefs and political positions and live up to an idealized version of them in our heads that has never actually existed in real life. And for men we'd just prefer they not be rapists but also a little raping is okay, especially if they just rape women we didn't like anyway.

Right, I mean it is crazy the deference that Gaiman is getting. Rowling takes a position that is unpopular and gets thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, extremely vicious rape and death threats. Gaiman is alleged to have committed grotesque atrocities against very vulnerable women and his own child, and the literary world and readers — many of whom cheered how Rowling was treated — bands together in silence.

And you’re right, the message seems to be that for men, a little raping is okay and it was probably the fault of these women we didn’t like anyhow.

I wish we’d abandon the pretense that famous left-leaning men with power act any differently towards vulnerable women than famous right-leaning men with power. There is no difference.

FP. It is the silence of the crackling fire of his books burning and his TV show contracts being rewritten or cancelled.

That is almost certainly temporary. Watch.

Nope. His readership is gone.

I disagree. I think that if he does a fake forgiveness tour in a year or two in which he “reflects” on his actions, he will be widely embraced by his core readership. Also, watch for PR leaks in the meantime that subtly trash all his accusers. He has the money to buy and orchestrate a planned return, and the cultlike reader pool to support that return.

His order readership is watching his shows and rereading his books for nostalgia but now that is tainted. And his young readership, they are very black and white. They are turned off by this.

His readership is gone. You can see it already, if you look.

It’s not gone. There are just a bunch of loyal readers performatively saying they are done (for now) and “holding space” for “conflicting feelings.”

They’ll embrace his redemption tour in a few years, once the accuser have been sufficiently trashed by whatever Baldoni-style PR agency Gaiman hires.

You’re thinking like a normie.

Gaiman’s readership consists of normies, albeit ones who have convinced themselves they are not.

He will be embraced widely by his fans in a few years.

Please tell us how you are an authority, because that does not ring through with anyone I’ve talked to.

I’m an authority because I have eyes, and have watched the successful rehabilitation of many predatory men. This is not going to remotely end his career, unfortunately.

Are you a person that grew up reading him? That’s the difference. His fandom is not the same as your average author. This is more Cosby level stuff, core memories tainted.

I did not grow up reading him. But I have read several of his books and am very familiar with his fandom, both on an offline. Actually it is precisely because of who his fandom is that I think he has a very high likelihood of rehabbing his image: his fans will help him. The will crave that redemption arc and Gaiman’s approval.

All of this is with the caveat that criminal charges are not brought. If criminal charges are brought, then yes, agree that is more like Cosby. But if no charges are brought, I expect he will be back in business in about ten years, with the support of his fandom.

Are you the PP who referred to yourself earlier in the thread as an "authority" because you've seen terrible men rehabbed in the public eye? Whether or not you're that PP, you sure are confident about your assessment of his fans.

Maybe check your attitude of authority. You are seriously underestimating how strongly Gaiman's female fans of all ages, but especially those in their 20s, will react to this situation. They will not forget or forgive, and nothing will rehabilitate him in their eyes; they are well aware of how the public apology crap works with men like this. And they'll be the first to speak up, loudly, if he or other parts of his fandom try to excuse his actions or claim he's truly contrite. Even years from now.

The source for my "authority" on this? My DD in her 20s who was a Gaiman fan, and her many, many friends who were, too. They are wounded, but mostly they are furious. And PP, they are not stupid, naive, or forgetful. They also know how to use their voices against men like this. Even men who produced work they had loved.

Wait. You think that Gaiman cares at all about his female fans? He’s been telegraphing for years what he thinks of them, and it is not good. Gaiman’s redemption arc won’t include those fans; he’s never cared for them to begin with. Their fury is irrelevant to him.

What will happen is this, assuming no criminal complaint is filed: He will go silent for awhile except for vague reference to “doing work” and “reflecting.” He will wait for the divorce case to settle. In the meantime, the PR firm he hires will start quietly digging for incriminating information about the accusers. Since these poor women are already vulnerable and damaged, it probably won’t be too hard to find information that can be twisted to make them look bad in the usual way women are discredited.

Anonymous posts about the accusers will start quietly mushrooming in a year or two, first on explicitly red-pill forums and then places like Reddit. “I knew one of the accusers when she was in high school. She slept with two buddies of mine at the same time but told each they were exclusive.” “Bro I just realized that the bathtub chick Gaiman banged has an OF account.” That sort of stuff. The profiles of the people dropping it will be curiously devoid of posting history, and go just up to the line of libel but not cross it. The misogynist portion of Gaiman’s base — and that is a big portion — will run with the posts, and the accounts will quietly be deleted a few months later. By then the accusations will have a life of their own.

That will go on for a few years, just long enough to activate large base of male Gaiman fans who will have convinced themselves that their hero Gaiman was unfairly accused and also get the support of some damaged female pick-mes. It will be enough to convince a publisher.

He will, in a few years, drop hints about how his work on himself has led him to look inward and focus his art on men doing “hard work.” It will be vague, but then in a few years after that, rumors will start about a new Gaiman novel, focusing on the experience of men.

And there you go: a ready-made audience primed to read a grotesquely misogynist and simultaneously self-adulating novel. Your daughter’s fury won’t matter at all.

Oh boy that is as grim as it is believable. It sounds like a novel itself - something like Yellowface.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the question of whether Gaiman will be rehabbed, I think a lot of factors weigh against it:

1) As others have said, his fans tend to be informed and engaged consumers of not just news but also gender and social justice theory. Moreover, his superfans KNOW they tend to be a little socially awkward or have overcome trauma, so the fact that he abused folks from that fan base hits even harder.

2) Not just his fans, but the directors, screenwriters, and actors who chose to participate in his projects tend to be pretty vocal defenders of vulnerable groups.

3) He was always a little fringe. While his fans base was avid, this is not actually a Bill Cosby universal fame sort of situation. The rehabilitation machine won't kick in for him the way it would for a more conventionally popular writer/celebrity.

I agree with this. And he's getting old. He's niche and replaceable.