Immersion program may leave gunston

[Anonymous]

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Is this good or bad for Kenmore (for the non-immersion crowd)?


I think it’s a non-issue as long as it doesn’t mean they take a lot of the higher SES planning units out of the Kenmore boundary to make room for the program. I think they shouldn’t redo the Kenmore boundary by much, unless and until the new location proves itself as more desirable, necessitating more seats. I remember when they talked about moving immersion previously, and they didn’t think it required a simultaneous boundary tweak. Kenmore is still below capacity, so seems like they shouldn’t need to move many or any PUs at this time, especially since we have no idea how this will affect people’s plans for immersion in MS.

Whelp buried on page 154 of the Pre-CIP report they have a draft map and they are in fact moving about 2/3rds of the planning units north of Rt. 50 to Swanson. So basically moving most of the higher SES units out. And splitting Arlington Forest. Probably doesn't bode well for the non-immersion kids.

https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/sites/57/2023/06/Pre-CIP-Report-2024-2033-Finalv2.pdf

This is freaking terrible. They’re splitting up a bunch of neighborhoods and even taking the walk zone to move the program in? Or is it to “fill” the N MS more? Damn it, Kenmore has to take it on the chin for others with all those extra buses and making their disadvantaged population even more so? F*** this! Leave the current Kenmore boundary alone and move Immersion to one of the schools with space.

Would it really kill the program to move it to WMS? That seems like the obvious solution. Move Montessori there too while they are at it.

I don’t see why it would. And maybe there’d be a smidge more diversity, too. It’s an option, not a right. If people will travel to Gunston, I don’t see why they wouldn’t travel to WMS. And it would stop some of these large cascading boundary changes, or make them less drastic. But it’s too easy a solution. Same as why Immersion or ATS wasn’t just moved rather instead of sending all McKinley to Cardinal.

Good point on adding more diversity to WMS, that school is lily white and could use it. Also, if Kenmore couldn't handle more buses traffic back when they considered it for a HS site, how could it take the added traffic that the immersion program will bring.

Put immersion and montessori and WMS, and that may take care of the numbers altogether, or at least it will minimize the balancing/rezoning needed.

NP, not Immersion. But I do understand how a program gets severely harmed if you move it too far from its population. In immersion's case, they need to keep half the population Spanish native and those folks don't live near WMS and can't get there easily. Also, I know from a transportation viewpoint they like to keep options as centrallly located in county because in the end it really doesn't help cap the costs and need for busses.
Finally I have to say, someone here snarked about when will APS stop favoring options over neighborhood schools, or something like that. It's a risible comment and blatantly far from the truth - options are the red headed stepchildren in APS planning. The system will build an entirely unneeded new Neighborhood ES (Cardinal) but move the Arlington Community HS program around a half-dozen times or shove Montessori into maybe the most dilipated structure (Henry), which was so bad APS built a new ES for that community (Fleet). Immersion has a right to equal treatment under APS, because there is demand for it, and it should not get something lesser because local neighborhoods want to sacrifice it for their parochial interests.

Hmm...you may not be immersion but you sound like Montessori. Fleet wasn't built because Henry was dilapidated. They built Fleet because Oakridge and Henry and Abingdon were overcrowded and projections were making Oakridge ludicrously over-overcrowded. Montessori WANTED out of Drew and the DREW kids NEEDED Montessori out. Montessori wanted that new school to be built for them and they still want a new school built for them.

Secondly and similarly, Cardinal was needed for capacity. Tuckahoe and McKinley had their days of severe overcrowding and McKinley got an addition. The new school was supposed to relocate an option program but (1) the neighborhood insisted it be neighborhood, of course and no surprise; and (2) Reid Goldstein stupidly - and without authority - promised them it would be.

I would hardly call option programs red-headed (or any other hair color) step-children. If they were, they'd all be shoved into the least-favored or suited locations and would be on the budget chopping block every year. If ATS is an ill-treated stepchild, put me in that family - please!

Totally agree Montessori would probably love a new school building, but like ATS, Immersion and everyone but HB they will never get one. Would any of the options not love a new school building? You're helping me prove my point that options are seen as second-class schools within the school system, only to receive leftovers from the neighborhoods, and never a new. They are seen as chess pieces to help solve "real" issues like seat capacity - but they are rarely valued on their own merit. Take your example of Drew - it took a desire by both sides to make the change. Also, someone else's here is asking aloud if this is the end of Immersion...nobody ever asks that of neighborhoods, so you can imagine how decades of having to defend your existence while watching other schools get built unnecessarily makes everyone in options assume the worst. I know this because I was on IPP task force years ago. It was eye opening.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Please APS, can we just remove option schools that are luck based and use the lottery system and be done? If someone wants immersion, traditional learning, or outdoor learning, they can go homeschool or private.

So only rich folks get options. Got it.

Ridiculous to take away the option programs

They aren’t going to do that. However, they could stop generating such ill will toward option programs by not prioritizing them in this type of decision. The programs should move where there is space, not where it’s the most convenient for option parents.

Since when are the kids getting moved being prioritized? They could leave the program at Gunston and move other kids. That would cause a lot more disruptions for many more kids.

Rather than cascading boundary changes AGAIN, they could easy peasy move the program to the schools that have capacity now and in projections and aren’t located in a dense part of the county.

I see the logic in that approach...until the program has to move again because the school is crowded and there's space somewhere else. It isn't right to just keep moving programs around to fill in space. And since we seem to need to balance enrollment rather frequently, you can't count on not needing the space for more neighborhood seats again. Now, if you're fine with moving the program and then assigning any new neighborhood students to other neighborhood schools when the school is overcrowded, then you don't have to keep moving the programs around. But I don't think the people suggesting this would be willing to do that if it's their kid who doesn't get to go to the neighborhood school the kids down the block go to, are they?
These programs need just as much stability as neighborhood schools.

Here's the proposed boundaries to make immersion to Kenmore work. The purple lines are the old zones, the colors are the new zones. How is this better than just moving immersion to Williamsburg and having mostly the old boundaries instead? Note that Williamsburg continues to be approximately 5% FARMS, Kenmore loses some higher income units to Swanson, and more busses are required for the walk zones from Swanson and Hamm moved to Williamsburg and Kenmore to Swanson.

I explained that in my post you're responding to. It isn't about the "now." It's about repeatedly moving the option program around to wherever there's more room in order to avoid general boundary changes. And as your map shows, the changes aren't significantly impacting every school - just the northern schools most. There's going to be a disproportionate impact no matter where you move immersion to. If it didn't upset your apple cart, you wouldn't give two licks where they moved it to.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Please APS, can we just remove option schools that are luck based and use the lottery system and be done? If someone wants immersion, traditional learning, or outdoor learning, they can go homeschool or private.

So only rich folks get options. Got it.

Ridiculous to take away the option programs

They aren’t going to do that. However, they could stop generating such ill will toward option programs by not prioritizing them in this type of decision. The programs should move where there is space, not where it’s the most convenient for option parents.

Since when are the kids getting moved being prioritized? They could leave the program at Gunston and move other kids. That would cause a lot more disruptions for many more kids.

Rather than cascading boundary changes AGAIN, they could easy peasy move the program to the schools that have capacity now and in projections and aren’t located in a dense part of the county.

I see the logic in that approach...until the program has to move again because the school is crowded and there's space somewhere else. It isn't right to just keep moving programs around to fill in space. And since we seem to need to balance enrollment rather frequently, you can't count on not needing the space for more neighborhood seats again. Now, if you're fine with moving the program and then assigning any new neighborhood students to other neighborhood schools when the school is overcrowded, then you don't have to keep moving the programs around. But I don't think the people suggesting this would be willing to do that if it's their kid who doesn't get to go to the neighborhood school the kids down the block go to, are they?
These programs need just as much stability as neighborhood schools.

Here's the proposed boundaries to make immersion to Kenmore work. The purple lines are the old zones, the colors are the new zones. How is this better than just moving immersion to Williamsburg and having mostly the old boundaries instead? Note that Williamsburg continues to be approximately 5% FARMS, Kenmore loses some higher income units to Swanson, and more busses are required for the walk zones from Swanson and Hamm moved to Williamsburg and Kenmore to Swanson.

I explained that in my post you're responding to. It isn't about the "now." It's about repeatedly moving the option program around to wherever there's more room in order to avoid general boundary changes. And as your map shows, the changes aren't significantly impacting every school - just the northern schools most. There's going to be a disproportionate impact no matter where you move immersion to. If it didn't upset your apple cart, you wouldn't give two licks where they moved it to.

It significantly impacts the boundaries for 4/6 middle schools. 5/6 if you include the emptying of Gunston.

Are we expecting significant growth in the Williamsburg zone anytime soon? I would expect that to be the zone with the LEAST development so the program would be the most stable there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the move from Gunston to Kenmore was one of the ideas that came out of the DLI meetings. I think its weird that APS didn't mention this, but whatever. One of the reasons for moving to Kenmore was because kids were having a bus ride of an hour to get to Gunston. Which I get that suck. However, there hasn't been any research done on bus trip length to Kenmore. IMO this seems like the easiest thing to figure out. Get a bus and drive the route. I would love to know if the move really improves the ride or if it just shortens for some and lengthens for others.

Of course this will happen. How could it logically not become shorter for some people and maybe longer for others? It obviously puts Gunston immersion walkers on a bus. It makes immersion students in the walk zone of Kenmore walkers. It's a shorter ride for the western Columbia Pike neighborhoods and probably about the same for other neighborhoods. It's also shorter for 22207 and other far NE neighborhoods....maybe a few more elementary kids from those neighborhoods will choose to continue at Kenmore, whereas they don't due to the distance to Gunston.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Please APS, can we just remove option schools that are luck based and use the lottery system and be done? If someone wants immersion, traditional learning, or outdoor learning, they can go homeschool or private.

So only rich folks get options. Got it.

Ridiculous to take away the option programs

They aren’t going to do that. However, they could stop generating such ill will toward option programs by not prioritizing them in this type of decision. The programs should move where there is space, not where it’s the most convenient for option parents.

Since when are the kids getting moved being prioritized? They could leave the program at Gunston and move other kids. That would cause a lot more disruptions for many more kids.

Rather than cascading boundary changes AGAIN, they could easy peasy move the program to the schools that have capacity now and in projections and aren’t located in a dense part of the county.

I see the logic in that approach...until the program has to move again because the school is crowded and there's space somewhere else. It isn't right to just keep moving programs around to fill in space. And since we seem to need to balance enrollment rather frequently, you can't count on not needing the space for more neighborhood seats again. Now, if you're fine with moving the program and then assigning any new neighborhood students to other neighborhood schools when the school is overcrowded, then you don't have to keep moving the programs around. But I don't think the people suggesting this would be willing to do that if it's their kid who doesn't get to go to the neighborhood school the kids down the block go to, are they?
These programs need just as much stability as neighborhood schools.

Here's the proposed boundaries to make immersion to Kenmore work. The purple lines are the old zones, the colors are the new zones. How is this better than just moving immersion to Williamsburg and having mostly the old boundaries instead? Note that Williamsburg continues to be approximately 5% FARMS, Kenmore loses some higher income units to Swanson, and more busses are required for the walk zones from Swanson and Hamm moved to Williamsburg and Kenmore to Swanson.

I explained that in my post you're responding to. It isn't about the "now." It's about repeatedly moving the option program around to wherever there's more room in order to avoid general boundary changes. And as your map shows, the changes aren't significantly impacting every school - just the northern schools most. There's going to be a disproportionate impact no matter where you move immersion to. If it didn't upset your apple cart, you wouldn't give two licks where they moved it to.

It significantly impacts the boundaries for 4/6 middle schools. 5/6 if you include the emptying of Gunston.

Are we expecting significant growth in the Williamsburg zone anytime soon? I would expect that to be the zone with the LEAST development so the program would be the most stable there.

Hamm and Swanson are the most dramatic. You can argue Williamsburg is if you want; but those changes are really only adding students and not taking students away from WMS, so I don't see that as a big deal. Gunston really doesn't change; TJ has minimal changes.
I don't disagree about the least growth being in the far north - although all the Nottingham people pushing back on that swing space plan seem to vehemently disagree. But it's also a matter of placing option programs where they have the potential to reach the most kids who would most benefit. In the case of immersion, I don't believe Williamsburg is that place. I do think the far East segment being redirected to WMS pretty much sucks, though.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please APS, can we just remove option schools that are luck based and use the lottery system and be done? If someone wants immersion, traditional learning, or outdoor learning, they can go homeschool or private.

So only rich folks get options. Got it.

Ridiculous to take away the option programs

They aren’t going to do that. However, they could stop generating such ill will toward option programs by not prioritizing them in this type of decision. The programs should move where there is space, not where it’s the most convenient for option parents.

Since when are the kids getting moved being prioritized? They could leave the program at Gunston and move other kids. That would cause a lot more disruptions for many more kids.

Rather than cascading boundary changes AGAIN, they could easy peasy move the program to the schools that have capacity now and in projections and aren’t located in a dense part of the county.

I see the logic in that approach...until the program has to move again because the school is crowded and there's space somewhere else. It isn't right to just keep moving programs around to fill in space. And since we seem to need to balance enrollment rather frequently, you can't count on not needing the space for more neighborhood seats again. Now, if you're fine with moving the program and then assigning any new neighborhood students to other neighborhood schools when the school is overcrowded, then you don't have to keep moving the programs around. But I don't think the people suggesting this would be willing to do that if it's their kid who doesn't get to go to the neighborhood school the kids down the block go to, are they?
These programs need just as much stability as neighborhood schools.

Here's the proposed boundaries to make immersion to Kenmore work. The purple lines are the old zones, the colors are the new zones. How is this better than just moving immersion to Williamsburg and having mostly the old boundaries instead? Note that Williamsburg continues to be approximately 5% FARMS, Kenmore loses some higher income units to Swanson, and more busses are required for the walk zones from Swanson and Hamm moved to Williamsburg and Kenmore to Swanson.

I explained that in my post you're responding to. It isn't about the "now." It's about repeatedly moving the option program around to wherever there's more room in order to avoid general boundary changes. And as your map shows, the changes aren't significantly impacting every school - just the northern schools most. There's going to be a disproportionate impact no matter where you move immersion to. If it didn't upset your apple cart, you wouldn't give two licks where they moved it to.

It significantly impacts the boundaries for 4/6 middle schools. 5/6 if you include the emptying of Gunston.

Are we expecting significant growth in the Williamsburg zone anytime soon? I would expect that to be the zone with the LEAST development so the program would be the most stable there.

Hamm and Swanson are the most dramatic. You can argue Williamsburg is if you want; but those changes are really only adding students and not taking students away from WMS, so I don't see that as a big deal. Gunston really doesn't change; TJ has minimal changes.
I don't disagree about the least growth being in the far north - although all the Nottingham people pushing back on that swing space plan seem to vehemently disagree. But it's also a matter of placing option programs where they have the potential to reach the most kids who would most benefit. In the case of immersion, I don't believe Williamsburg is that place. I do think the far East segment being redirected to WMS pretty much sucks, though.

Also Kenmore loses units and gains 8 busses. That’s pretty dramatic.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So the move from Gunston to Kenmore was one of the ideas that came out of the DLI meetings. I think its weird that APS didn't mention this, but whatever. One of the reasons for moving to Kenmore was because kids were having a bus ride of an hour to get to Gunston. Which I get that suck. However, there hasn't been any research done on bus trip length to Kenmore. IMO this seems like the easiest thing to figure out. Get a bus and drive the route. I would love to know if the move really improves the ride or if it just shortens for some and lengthens for others.

Of course this will happen. How could it logically not become shorter for some people and maybe longer for others? It obviously puts Gunston immersion walkers on a bus. It makes immersion students in the walk zone of Kenmore walkers. It's a shorter ride for the western Columbia Pike neighborhoods and probably about the same for other neighborhoods. It's also shorter for 22207 and other far NE neighborhoods....maybe a few more elementary kids from those neighborhoods will choose to continue at Kenmore, whereas they don't due to the distance to Gunston.

Right but I meant could it now be 45 Mims ride of those in the gunston walk zone. It van easily take me 25 mins to drive to kenmore without being on the bus. Just curious if now kids close to Gunston will have very long rides. I think it's fair to ask for bus ride lengths if that is one of the considerations. Especially since it is easy enough to figure out

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the move from Gunston to Kenmore was one of the ideas that came out of the DLI meetings. I think its weird that APS didn't mention this, but whatever. One of the reasons for moving to Kenmore was because kids were having a bus ride of an hour to get to Gunston. Which I get that suck. However, there hasn't been any research done on bus trip length to Kenmore. IMO this seems like the easiest thing to figure out. Get a bus and drive the route. I would love to know if the move really improves the ride or if it just shortens for some and lengthens for others.

Of course this will happen. How could it logically not become shorter for some people and maybe longer for others? It obviously puts Gunston immersion walkers on a bus. It makes immersion students in the walk zone of Kenmore walkers. It's a shorter ride for the western Columbia Pike neighborhoods and probably about the same for other neighborhoods. It's also shorter for 22207 and other far NE neighborhoods....maybe a few more elementary kids from those neighborhoods will choose to continue at Kenmore, whereas they don't due to the distance to Gunston.

Right but I meant could it now be 45 Mims ride of those in the gunston walk zone. It van easily take me 25 mins to drive to kenmore without being on the bus. Just curious if now kids close to Gunston will have very long rides. I think it's fair to ask for bus ride lengths if that is one of the considerations. Especially since it is easy enough to figure out

Unfortunately there’s never a guarantee with how long it is going to take to get to an option school. If the 20 to 45 minutes is too long, go back to your neighborhood school.

- a family that will be affected by immersion moving and will have a longer drive for pick up.

[Anonymous]

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Is this good or bad for Kenmore (for the non-immersion crowd)?


I think it’s a non-issue as long as it doesn’t mean they take a lot of the higher SES planning units out of the Kenmore boundary to make room for the program. I think they shouldn’t redo the Kenmore boundary by much, unless and until the new location proves itself as more desirable, necessitating more seats. I remember when they talked about moving immersion previously, and they didn’t think it required a simultaneous boundary tweak. Kenmore is still below capacity, so seems like they shouldn’t need to move many or any PUs at this time, especially since we have no idea how this will affect people’s plans for immersion in MS.

Whelp buried on page 154 of the Pre-CIP report they have a draft map and they are in fact moving about 2/3rds of the planning units north of Rt. 50 to Swanson. So basically moving most of the higher SES units out. And splitting Arlington Forest. Probably doesn't bode well for the non-immersion kids.

https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/sites/57/2023/06/Pre-CIP-Report-2024-2033-Finalv2.pdf

This is freaking terrible. They’re splitting up a bunch of neighborhoods and even taking the walk zone to move the program in? Or is it to “fill” the N MS more? Damn it, Kenmore has to take it on the chin for others with all those extra buses and making their disadvantaged population even more so? F*** this! Leave the current Kenmore boundary alone and move Immersion to one of the schools with space.

Would it really kill the program to move it to WMS? That seems like the obvious solution. Move Montessori there too while they are at it.

I don’t see why it would. And maybe there’d be a smidge more diversity, too. It’s an option, not a right. If people will travel to Gunston, I don’t see why they wouldn’t travel to WMS. And it would stop some of these large cascading boundary changes, or make them less drastic. But it’s too easy a solution. Same as why Immersion or ATS wasn’t just moved rather instead of sending all McKinley to Cardinal.

Good point on adding more diversity to WMS, that school is lily white and could use it. Also, if Kenmore couldn't handle more buses traffic back when they considered it for a HS site, how could it take the added traffic that the immersion program will bring.

Put immersion and montessori and WMS, and that may take care of the numbers altogether, or at least it will minimize the balancing/rezoning needed.

NP, not Immersion. But I do understand how a program gets severely harmed if you move it too far from its population. In immersion's case, they need to keep half the population Spanish native and those folks don't live near WMS and can't get there easily. Also, I know from a transportation viewpoint they like to keep options as centrallly located in county because in the end it really doesn't help cap the costs and need for busses.
Finally I have to say, someone here snarked about when will APS stop favoring options over neighborhood schools, or something like that. It's a risible comment and blatantly far from the truth - options are the red headed stepchildren in APS planning. The system will build an entirely unneeded new Neighborhood ES (Cardinal) but move the Arlington Community HS program around a half-dozen times or shove Montessori into maybe the most dilipated structure (Henry), which was so bad APS built a new ES for that community (Fleet). Immersion has a right to equal treatment under APS, because there is demand for it, and it should not get something lesser because local neighborhoods want to sacrifice it for their parochial interests.

Hmm...you may not be immersion but you sound like Montessori. Fleet wasn't built because Henry was dilapidated. They built Fleet because Oakridge and Henry and Abingdon were overcrowded and projections were making Oakridge ludicrously over-overcrowded. Montessori WANTED out of Drew and the DREW kids NEEDED Montessori out. Montessori wanted that new school to be built for them and they still want a new school built for them.

Secondly and similarly, Cardinal was needed for capacity. Tuckahoe and McKinley had their days of severe overcrowding and McKinley got an addition. The new school was supposed to relocate an option program but (1) the neighborhood insisted it be neighborhood, of course and no surprise; and (2) Reid Goldstein stupidly - and without authority - promised them it would be.

I would hardly call option programs red-headed (or any other hair color) step-children. If they were, they'd all be shoved into the least-favored or suited locations and would be on the budget chopping block every year. If ATS is an ill-treated stepchild, put me in that family - please!

Totally agree Montessori would probably love a new school building, but like ATS, Immersion and everyone but HB they will never get one. Would any of the options not love a new school building? You're helping me prove my point that options are seen as second-class schools within the school system, only to receive leftovers from the neighborhoods, and never a new. They are seen as chess pieces to help solve "real" issues like seat capacity - but they are rarely valued on their own merit. Take your example of Drew - it took a desire by both sides to make the change. Also, someone else's here is asking aloud if this is the end of Immersion...nobody ever asks that of neighborhoods, so you can imagine how decades of having to defend your existence while watching other schools get built unnecessarily makes everyone in options assume the worst. I know this because I was on IPP task force years ago. It was eye opening.

Actually, Montessori finally moved out - not because both sides finally agreed - because south Arlington was facing a huge crowding problem (particularly Oakridge) and APS needed to build a new school (Fleet) to handle neighborhood program kids.

All the option programs probably won't get brand new buildings, no. But very few neighborhoods get new buildings, either. Only a few when population growth necessitating an additional school. Many neighborhood schools would love a new building, too, or at least a renovation to update it and bring it into modern times. Just like option schools. And there are far more neighborhood schools than option schools. No stepchildren here; equal wants and equally limited resources.

Montessori will be getting a new building (or essentially a new building) with the complete refurbishing and renovation and fitting-to-Montessori-specifications of the Career Center building.

ATS was supposed to get the new building that became Cardinal. That wasn't APS' fault - it was Reid Goldstein's.

If an option program is in the building with the worst conditions, it will get its proper place in the queue. But your option school (1) if it's Montessori, is already accounted for in a redevelopment plan; or (2) just might not be the most urgent facility in need of a re-do. If that's not satisfactory enough, take solace that Nottingham neighborhood is being "asked" to end. Note, APS is not proposing to close down an option program for swing space.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Please APS, can we just remove option schools that are luck based and use the lottery system and be done? If someone wants immersion, traditional learning, or outdoor learning, they can go homeschool or private.

So only rich folks get options. Got it.

Ridiculous to take away the option programs

They aren’t going to do that. However, they could stop generating such ill will toward option programs by not prioritizing them in this type of decision. The programs should move where there is space, not where it’s the most convenient for option parents.

Since when are the kids getting moved being prioritized? They could leave the program at Gunston and move other kids. That would cause a lot more disruptions for many more kids.

Rather than cascading boundary changes AGAIN, they could easy peasy move the program to the schools that have capacity now and in projections and aren’t located in a dense part of the county.

I see the logic in that approach...until the program has to move again because the school is crowded and there's space somewhere else. It isn't right to just keep moving programs around to fill in space. And since we seem to need to balance enrollment rather frequently, you can't count on not needing the space for more neighborhood seats again. Now, if you're fine with moving the program and then assigning any new neighborhood students to other neighborhood schools when the school is overcrowded, then you don't have to keep moving the programs around. But I don't think the people suggesting this would be willing to do that if it's their kid who doesn't get to go to the neighborhood school the kids down the block go to, are they?
These programs need just as much stability as neighborhood schools.

Here's the proposed boundaries to make immersion to Kenmore work. The purple lines are the old zones, the colors are the new zones. How is this better than just moving immersion to Williamsburg and having mostly the old boundaries instead? Note that Williamsburg continues to be approximately 5% FARMS, Kenmore loses some higher income units to Swanson, and more busses are required for the walk zones from Swanson and Hamm moved to Williamsburg and Kenmore to Swanson.

I explained that in my post you're responding to. It isn't about the "now." It's about repeatedly moving the option program around to wherever there's more room in order to avoid general boundary changes. And as your map shows, the changes aren't significantly impacting every school - just the northern schools most. There's going to be a disproportionate impact no matter where you move immersion to. If it didn't upset your apple cart, you wouldn't give two licks where they moved it to.

It significantly impacts the boundaries for 4/6 middle schools. 5/6 if you include the emptying of Gunston.

Are we expecting significant growth in the Williamsburg zone anytime soon? I would expect that to be the zone with the LEAST development so the program would be the most stable there.

Hamm and Swanson are the most dramatic. You can argue Williamsburg is if you want; but those changes are really only adding students and not taking students away from WMS, so I don't see that as a big deal. Gunston really doesn't change; TJ has minimal changes.
I don't disagree about the least growth being in the far north - although all the Nottingham people pushing back on that swing space plan seem to vehemently disagree. But it's also a matter of placing option programs where they have the potential to reach the most kids who would most benefit. In the case of immersion, I don't believe Williamsburg is that place. I do think the far East segment being redirected to WMS pretty much sucks, though.

Also Kenmore loses units and gains 8 busses. That’s pretty dramatic.

The buses are for the option program. You were complaining about boundaries.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Please APS, can we just remove option schools that are luck based and use the lottery system and be done? If someone wants immersion, traditional learning, or outdoor learning, they can go homeschool or private.

So only rich folks get options. Got it.

Ridiculous to take away the option programs

They aren’t going to do that. However, they could stop generating such ill will toward option programs by not prioritizing them in this type of decision. The programs should move where there is space, not where it’s the most convenient for option parents.

Since when are the kids getting moved being prioritized? They could leave the program at Gunston and move other kids. That would cause a lot more disruptions for many more kids.

Rather than cascading boundary changes AGAIN, they could easy peasy move the program to the schools that have capacity now and in projections and aren’t located in a dense part of the county.

I see the logic in that approach...until the program has to move again because the school is crowded and there's space somewhere else. It isn't right to just keep moving programs around to fill in space. And since we seem to need to balance enrollment rather frequently, you can't count on not needing the space for more neighborhood seats again. Now, if you're fine with moving the program and then assigning any new neighborhood students to other neighborhood schools when the school is overcrowded, then you don't have to keep moving the programs around. But I don't think the people suggesting this would be willing to do that if it's their kid who doesn't get to go to the neighborhood school the kids down the block go to, are they?
These programs need just as much stability as neighborhood schools.

Here's the proposed boundaries to make immersion to Kenmore work. The purple lines are the old zones, the colors are the new zones. How is this better than just moving immersion to Williamsburg and having mostly the old boundaries instead? Note that Williamsburg continues to be approximately 5% FARMS, Kenmore loses some higher income units to Swanson, and more busses are required for the walk zones from Swanson and Hamm moved to Williamsburg and Kenmore to Swanson.

I explained that in my post you're responding to. It isn't about the "now." It's about repeatedly moving the option program around to wherever there's more room in order to avoid general boundary changes. And as your map shows, the changes aren't significantly impacting every school - just the northern schools most. There's going to be a disproportionate impact no matter where you move immersion to. If it didn't upset your apple cart, you wouldn't give two licks where they moved it to.

It significantly impacts the boundaries for 4/6 middle schools. 5/6 if you include the emptying of Gunston.

Are we expecting significant growth in the Williamsburg zone anytime soon? I would expect that to be the zone with the LEAST development so the program would be the most stable there.

Hamm and Swanson are the most dramatic. You can argue Williamsburg is if you want; but those changes are really only adding students and not taking students away from WMS, so I don't see that as a big deal. Gunston really doesn't change; TJ has minimal changes.
I don't disagree about the least growth being in the far north - although all the Nottingham people pushing back on that swing space plan seem to vehemently disagree. But it's also a matter of placing option programs where they have the potential to reach the most kids who would most benefit. In the case of immersion, I don't believe Williamsburg is that place. I do think the far East segment being redirected to WMS pretty much sucks, though.

Also Kenmore loses units and gains 8 busses. That’s pretty dramatic.

The buses are for the option program. You were complaining about boundaries.

DP, but I don’t think it matters who the buses are for, just that the school and the road, with two other schools with the same start time, probably can’t handle that many more buses.

[Anonymous]

Kenmore does not have extra space. It already has nearly a thousand students. Not sure how it will be able to maintain its arts and technology focus AND house immersion. My guess is no more transfers in which will be a shame for kids wanting the arts/tech focus. So glad my two are already through Kenmore. The boundary and program changes are really gettin ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please APS, can we just remove option schools that are luck based and use the lottery system and be done? If someone wants immersion, traditional learning, or outdoor learning, they can go homeschool or private.

So only rich folks get options. Got it.

Ridiculous to take away the option programs

They aren’t going to do that. However, they could stop generating such ill will toward option programs by not prioritizing them in this type of decision. The programs should move where there is space, not where it’s the most convenient for option parents.

That is actually exactly what they did with HB. HB didn’t want to move but it was moved to the tiny Rosalyn parcel that no one else wanted. But then the HB-option haters complained that HB got a new building. That HB never even wanted.

There’s no pleasing the haters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the move from Gunston to Kenmore was one of the ideas that came out of the DLI meetings. I think its weird that APS didn't mention this, but whatever. One of the reasons for moving to Kenmore was because kids were having a bus ride of an hour to get to Gunston. Which I get that suck. However, there hasn't been any research done on bus trip length to Kenmore. IMO this seems like the easiest thing to figure out. Get a bus and drive the route. I would love to know if the move really improves the ride or if it just shortens for some and lengthens for others.

Of course this will happen. How could it logically not become shorter for some people and maybe longer for others? It obviously puts Gunston immersion walkers on a bus. It makes immersion students in the walk zone of Kenmore walkers. It's a shorter ride for the western Columbia Pike neighborhoods and probably about the same for other neighborhoods. It's also shorter for 22207 and other far NE neighborhoods....maybe a few more elementary kids from those neighborhoods will choose to continue at Kenmore, whereas they don't due to the distance to Gunston.

Right but I meant could it now be 45 Mims ride of those in the gunston walk zone. It van easily take me 25 mins to drive to kenmore without being on the bus. Just curious if now kids close to Gunston will have very long rides. I think it's fair to ask for bus ride lengths if that is one of the considerations. Especially since it is easy enough to figure out

Unfortunately there’s never a guarantee with how long it is going to take to get to an option school. If the 20 to 45 minutes is too long, go back to your neighborhood school.

- a family that will be affected by immersion moving and will have a longer drive for pick up.

I mean yes I know and agree but the reasons coming out of the DLI workgroup for moving to kenmore is to reduce the 1 hour bus ride for kids from Key to go to Gunston. So if now the families that were at Claremont have a similarly long bus ride it does not solve the problem they are trying to fix.

(note we are also an immersion family who can bike to Gunston, and will follow the program wherever).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:my family left immersion after last year and I wish we would have done it sooner. I hope they figure out the plan for things soon because the program is suffering.

I'm the IPP poster. Part of the issue is only a few of the options have a genuine pedagogy attached, e.g., HB and Montessori. With those you can point to key parameters, identify pathways, distinguish individual progress, and adhere to them. Other options like ATS or Immersion have been more of a concept that were kind of thrown up on the chalkboard to see what sticks in a time of need of moving seats around. With Immersion, a key parameter became a demographic balance that is out of the control of a school system - that's tough and means the program is always expending energy on it. There are other challenges, like finding dual language certified teachers in subjects, for instance, where APS does not really get help from outside world. By contrast in Montessori, at least there's a whole ecosystem of training and certifying educators.