If ATS is so popular, why not create two of them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Old APS parent here. Knowing what I know now, I absolutely would have applied to send my kids to ATS (we did not even lottery, though I did learn about it at kindergarten info night).

How I think of it is, ATS runs like schools ran when I was a kid. Traditional. Other APS schools are trying new models that generally are not proven and not as effective.

We switched to Catholic during Covid which also runs a more traditional model, but which you pay for out of pocket.

I do think we should add another ATS. The question is where to put it, because you have to take offline an existing ES, and that's a nightmare like all boundary stuff is.

But as an Arlington taxpayer, I would love to see all our schools swinging back toward a more traditional learning model.

I also completely agree on the importance of having one teacher who really gets to know your kid and be invested in them. I hated when our APS elem started rotating kids in 4th grade and all those connections got broken.

Just want to chime in as an ATS parent. What distinguishes ATS is the following:

- high expectations when it comes to academics
- high expectations when it comes to behavior
- direct interaction as opposed to inquiry based learning (this is the most important difference in my opinion)
- focus on phonics in the earlier grades
- curriculum has always been knowledge based even before the adoption of CKLA
- extremely diverse student body
- no standards based grading in the higher grades
-homework
- arts focus

This all sounds pretty generic, though I'm not familiar with "direct interaction" vs. "inquiry based learning." Again, the main issue I see with ATS, and why we didn't bother trying the lottery, is that they can't really identify what they're doing that is so special. Anyone at ATS who hasn't also been at another school (most of ATS) has only experienced ATS and been told it is extra special.

That’s because you don’t know the difference between inquiry based learning and direct instruction. They are completely different methods of teaching. The delivery is different. The teacher’s role is different. The students roles’ are different. The way students interact with each other are different. It’s a completely different way to run a classroom. The differences are vast. Just because the difference is too abstract for you to understand doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I suggest you learn about the different methods of instruction. You can start with Natalie Wexler.

Your entire response just repeats the assertion that "direct interaction" and "inquiry based learning" are different without explaining HOW they are different. I'll google Natalie Wexler and try to educate myself, but repeating a claim without backing it up doesn't make it more convincing. Also, even if this one thing is the true difference, why burry that with all the other generic stuff? No wonder so many of us are confused.

DP Direct instruction (not interaction) is a more traditional approach whereby the teacher provides instruction to the class as a whole, does worked examples, and lays out problems in a scaffolded manner so that students can build a base of knowledge before tackling the next level difficulty problem. Essentially, teachers take a direct role in teaching kids material. With inquiry or discovery learning, the teacher is more a facilitator and students often work together in small groups on material and attempt to figure problems out on their own. Students ask questions of the teacher when they hit an impasse. The teacher does not give them the answer directly but will ask students follow-up questions to guide their thinking toward the answer. Inquiry learning is meant to encourage productive struggle. Since inquiry learning is generally more time consuming than direct instruction, often less content is covered with an inquiry approach. Inquiry learning tends to put more emphasis on thinking process skills and less emphasis on the particular content itself.
Each approach has its advocates. However, inquiry learning is generally more successful when students have a base of knowledge to work with; as such, it may be better suited to experts rather than novices and may be better incorporated in small amounts rather than used exclusively.

NP Thank you for that explanation. I just don't understand why everything is either "this or that" and never something in the middle; or just improving the existing instead of throwing it out and replacing it with something entirely different. So illogical and frustrating.

Yes. It comes in waves and can differ depending on the subject. Nationally, ELA is moving back toward a more traditional, content-focused approach, while math is moving in the other direction, toward more of an inquiry approach with problem-based learning.

That’s interesting. I’m no expert but I believe that math needs direct instruction, and then a balance between conceptual and procedural learning. Do you know if the inquiry approach to math is evidence based? Is there a “science of math”?

Both sides believe their approach is evidence-based. However, cognitive science would argue for a more traditional approach of getting young students automatic in their math facts and procedures early on, thus freeing up more working memory for problem-solving later. The US Dept of Education's WWC practice guide for struggling math students effectively argues for direct instruction. https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/PracticeGuide/26

However, the traditional math view is not popular now. Math is where ELA was five or so years ago when everyone supported balanced literacy. There is a Science of Math but it has not received national notice, although that is beginning to change given the increasing attention given to the Science of Reading. https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-how-a-debate-over-the-science-of-math-could-reignite-the-math-wars/ However, the national math groups like NCTM are not supporters of the Science of Math and believe that moving more toward an inquiry learning approach is key to getting more students interested in math.

Interesting. So what side has APS’ math department taken in this debate? I know APS recently adopted a new math curriculum but I haven’t heard much about it. We are hearing so much about phonics and CKLA and how great these changes are but very little about math. For the record, I am an ATS parent. I’ve been really impressed with what ATS is doing with English but with math I don’t know. Like many parents, I make my kids do math problems at home with a focus on math facts. But I honestly don’t know much about math in general.

APS Math shares NCTM's views. There was a math resource adoption last year. The new textbooks & resources include sections with problem-based learning and tasks that encourage productive struggle as well as sections that have more typical content. Teachers can choose what sections of the new resources to use; traditional teachers might stick with the more typical materials whereas NCTM-oriented teachers might opt to incorporate some of the problem-based learning sections as well. Thus, experiences likely vary by class. The more typical materials largely align with Common Core which is similar to Virginia's own math standards. Common Core places a relatively heavy emphasis on conceptual understanding and problem solving which traditionalists feel can sometimes come at the expense of mastering facts and procedures in the early grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Old APS parent here. Knowing what I know now, I absolutely would have applied to send my kids to ATS (we did not even lottery, though I did learn about it at kindergarten info night).

How I think of it is, ATS runs like schools ran when I was a kid. Traditional. Other APS schools are trying new models that generally are not proven and not as effective.

We switched to Catholic during Covid which also runs a more traditional model, but which you pay for out of pocket.

I do think we should add another ATS. The question is where to put it, because you have to take offline an existing ES, and that's a nightmare like all boundary stuff is.

But as an Arlington taxpayer, I would love to see all our schools swinging back toward a more traditional learning model.

I also completely agree on the importance of having one teacher who really gets to know your kid and be invested in them. I hated when our APS elem started rotating kids in 4th grade and all those connections got broken.

Just want to chime in as an ATS parent. What distinguishes ATS is the following:

- high expectations when it comes to academics
- high expectations when it comes to behavior
- direct interaction as opposed to inquiry based learning (this is the most important difference in my opinion)
- focus on phonics in the earlier grades
- curriculum has always been knowledge based even before the adoption of CKLA
- extremely diverse student body
- no standards based grading in the higher grades
-homework
- arts focus

This all sounds pretty generic, though I'm not familiar with "direct interaction" vs. "inquiry based learning." Again, the main issue I see with ATS, and why we didn't bother trying the lottery, is that they can't really identify what they're doing that is so special. Anyone at ATS who hasn't also been at another school (most of ATS) has only experienced ATS and been told it is extra special.

That’s because you don’t know the difference between inquiry based learning and direct instruction. They are completely different methods of teaching. The delivery is different. The teacher’s role is different. The students roles’ are different. The way students interact with each other are different. It’s a completely different way to run a classroom. The differences are vast. Just because the difference is too abstract for you to understand doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I suggest you learn about the different methods of instruction. You can start with Natalie Wexler.

Your entire response just repeats the assertion that "direct interaction" and "inquiry based learning" are different without explaining HOW they are different. I'll google Natalie Wexler and try to educate myself, but repeating a claim without backing it up doesn't make it more convincing. Also, even if this one thing is the true difference, why burry that with all the other generic stuff? No wonder so many of us are confused.

DP Direct instruction (not interaction) is a more traditional approach whereby the teacher provides instruction to the class as a whole, does worked examples, and lays out problems in a scaffolded manner so that students can build a base of knowledge before tackling the next level difficulty problem. Essentially, teachers take a direct role in teaching kids material. With inquiry or discovery learning, the teacher is more a facilitator and students often work together in small groups on material and attempt to figure problems out on their own. Students ask questions of the teacher when they hit an impasse. The teacher does not give them the answer directly but will ask students follow-up questions to guide their thinking toward the answer. Inquiry learning is meant to encourage productive struggle. Since inquiry learning is generally more time consuming than direct instruction, often less content is covered with an inquiry approach. Inquiry learning tends to put more emphasis on thinking process skills and less emphasis on the particular content itself.
Each approach has its advocates. However, inquiry learning is generally more successful when students have a base of knowledge to work with; as such, it may be better suited to experts rather than novices and may be better incorporated in small amounts rather than used exclusively.

NP Thank you for that explanation. I just don't understand why everything is either "this or that" and never something in the middle; or just improving the existing instead of throwing it out and replacing it with something entirely different. So illogical and frustrating.

Yes. It comes in waves and can differ depending on the subject. Nationally, ELA is moving back toward a more traditional, content-focused approach, while math is moving in the other direction, toward more of an inquiry approach with problem-based learning.

That’s interesting. I’m no expert but I believe that math needs direct instruction, and then a balance between conceptual and procedural learning. Do you know if the inquiry approach to math is evidence based? Is there a “science of math”?

Both sides believe their approach is evidence-based. However, cognitive science would argue for a more traditional approach of getting young students automatic in their math facts and procedures early on, thus freeing up more working memory for problem-solving later. The US Dept of Education's WWC practice guide for struggling math students effectively argues for direct instruction. https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/PracticeGuide/26

However, the traditional math view is not popular now. Math is where ELA was five or so years ago when everyone supported balanced literacy. There is a Science of Math but it has not received national notice, although that is beginning to change given the increasing attention given to the Science of Reading. https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-how-a-debate-over-the-science-of-math-could-reignite-the-math-wars/ However, the national math groups like NCTM are not supporters of the Science of Math and believe that moving more toward an inquiry learning approach is key to getting more students interested in math.

Interesting. So what side has APS’ math department taken in this debate? I know APS recently adopted a new math curriculum but I haven’t heard much about it. We are hearing so much about phonics and CKLA and how great these changes are but very little about math. For the record, I am an ATS parent. I’ve been really impressed with what ATS is doing with English but with math I don’t know. Like many parents, I make my kids do math problems at home with a focus on math facts. But I honestly don’t know much about math in general.

APS Math shares NCTM's views. There was a math resource adoption last year. The new textbooks & resources include sections with problem-based learning and tasks that encourage productive struggle as well as sections that have more typical content. Teachers can choose what sections of the new resources to use; traditional teachers might stick with the more typical materials whereas NCTM-oriented teachers might opt to incorporate some of the problem-based learning sections as well. Thus, experiences likely vary by class. The more typical materials largely align with Common Core which is similar to Virginia's own math standards. Common Core places a relatively heavy emphasis on conceptual understanding and problem solving which traditionalists feel can sometimes come at the expense of mastering facts and procedures in the early grades.

What about the parent math advisory group?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ATS also only has 7.65% students with disabilities, the county average is 14.37%. That also helps juice the test scores.

Yet if you look at the SOL scores for those students, they outperform SN kids at other schools. Also, and this will surprise you, ATS provides interventions early and often thereby remediating some early differences so they don't become "SN" kids. It's amazing.

This. So many schools “wait and see”
With kids which is really just waiting to fail. But a lot of specific Learning disabilities can be addressed with early intervention. We know now that structured literacy benefits all kids but is really necessary for those who struggle to read. So it makes sense that a school that stresses that from day one simply ends up testing fewer Kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just want to state my personal desire to not turn APS into a lottery of ATS, specialized school options. Neighborhood schools have tremendous value and having your children be able to wander the streets with their friends and knowing the families in each house is worth a lot more to me than these specialized options and knowing that MY school is the BEST scoring elementary school in Arlington is so stupid to me I can’t even tell you.

You do realize that some neighborhoods are split up and not everyone is assigned to a school full of SFHs where the kids can just wander the streets, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to state my personal desire to not turn APS into a lottery of ATS, specialized school options. Neighborhood schools have tremendous value and having your children be able to wander the streets with their friends and knowing the families in each house is worth a lot more to me than these specialized options and knowing that MY school is the BEST scoring elementary school in Arlington is so stupid to me I can’t even tell you.

You do realize that some neighborhoods are split up and not everyone is assigned to a school full of SFHs where the kids can just wander the streets, right?

+1 UMC Arlington families think they live in Mayberry because they typically do. But immigrants are flocking to the “BEST scoring elementary school”. It’s a privilege to not worry about achievement for disadvantaged kids at most of our neighborhood schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to state my personal desire to not turn APS into a lottery of ATS, specialized school options. Neighborhood schools have tremendous value and having your children be able to wander the streets with their friends and knowing the families in each house is worth a lot more to me than these specialized options and knowing that MY school is the BEST scoring elementary school in Arlington is so stupid to me I can’t even tell you.

You do realize that some neighborhoods are split up and not everyone is assigned to a school full of SFHs where the kids can just wander the streets, right?

I don’t obviously. Logically, we should tear apart neighborhood schools as a result. And it was wrong of me to suggest they have value. Sigh.

I value play over scores and I value my child’s independence over the “top elementary environment.” But, my values are less important in APS/public school where testing gods reign and we should all have access to the best of everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to state my personal desire to not turn APS into a lottery of ATS, specialized school options. Neighborhood schools have tremendous value and having your children be able to wander the streets with their friends and knowing the families in each house is worth a lot more to me than these specialized options and knowing that MY school is the BEST scoring elementary school in Arlington is so stupid to me I can’t even tell you.

You do realize that some neighborhoods are split up and not everyone is assigned to a school full of SFHs where the kids can just wander the streets, right?

And there are ways to connect with your neighborhood community so your kids still know the other kids and "wander the streets" with them. Does your neighborhood have community events like holiday parades, block parties, community service in the park days, babysitting co-op, parent group? Or you get to know your neighbors, host pot-lucks in the front or back yard, take walks with your kids and talk to the others out in their yards, etc? Just because your kid goes to an option school doesn't mean they can't also have friends and know the people in the neighborhood. My neighborhood is full of kids going to several different schools (every option school you can list as well as different private schools); yet we and our kids still know those kids and their parents - or at least several of them....we don't know everyone in the neighborhood and now that we're in high school, we're learning about others we didn't even know lived in our neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As much as this forum talks about ATS, you know they are doing something right. Ha!

Knowing what we know now, I wish instead of the Spanish immersion program, we would have at least tried for the lottery at ATS. C'est la vie!

Same. I wouldn’t do immersion again and we won’t do it for middle school even though that is where it’s supposedly starts to come together for kids . APS needs to be more upfront about that.

Then I hope you don't care if your kids learns Spanish, because regular high school Spanish instruction in APS is horrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to state my personal desire to not turn APS into a lottery of ATS, specialized school options. Neighborhood schools have tremendous value and having your children be able to wander the streets with their friends and knowing the families in each house is worth a lot more to me than these specialized options and knowing that MY school is the BEST scoring elementary school in Arlington is so stupid to me I can’t even tell you.

You do realize that some neighborhoods are split up and not everyone is assigned to a school full of SFHs where the kids can just wander the streets, right?

I don’t obviously. Logically, we should tear apart neighborhood schools as a result. And it was wrong of me to suggest they have value. Sigh.

I value play over scores and I value my child’s independence over the “top elementary environment.” But, my values are less important in APS/public school where testing gods reign and we should all have access to the best of everything.

You realize it’s not an either/or proposition right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to state my personal desire to not turn APS into a lottery of ATS, specialized school options. Neighborhood schools have tremendous value and having your children be able to wander the streets with their friends and knowing the families in each house is worth a lot more to me than these specialized options and knowing that MY school is the BEST scoring elementary school in Arlington is so stupid to me I can’t even tell you.

You do realize that some neighborhoods are split up and not everyone is assigned to a school full of SFHs where the kids can just wander the streets, right?

I don’t obviously. Logically, we should tear apart neighborhood schools as a result. And it was wrong of me to suggest they have value. Sigh.

I value play over scores and I value my child’s independence over the “top elementary environment.” But, my values are less important in APS/public school where testing gods reign and we should all have access to the best of everything.

I’d say your values are perfectly aligned with the dominant view in APS and Arlington. The problem is that is leaving so many disadvantaged kids worse off than their peers who figure out by late elementary and middle school that their kids need tutoring. Maybe give all kids a good foundation.

Arlington loves to virtue signal about equity. Advancing it is the the rub.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As much as this forum talks about ATS, you know they are doing something right. Ha!

Knowing what we know now, I wish instead of the Spanish immersion program, we would have at least tried for the lottery at ATS. C'est la vie!

Same. I wouldn’t do immersion again and we won’t do it for middle school even though that is where it’s supposedly starts to come together for kids . APS needs to be more upfront about that.

Then I hope you don't care if your kids learns Spanish, because regular high school Spanish instruction in APS is horrible.

Lots of ways to proficiency In foreign languages. Not just immersion. Seems like a great opportunity for those it works out for. But a lot leave it at the higher levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As much as this forum talks about ATS, you know they are doing something right. Ha!

Knowing what we know now, I wish instead of the Spanish immersion program, we would have at least tried for the lottery at ATS. C'est la vie!

Same. I wouldn’t do immersion again and we won’t do it for middle school even though that is where it’s supposedly starts to come together for kids . APS needs to be more upfront about that.

Then I hope you don't care if your kids learns Spanish, because regular high school Spanish instruction in APS is horrible.

Lots of ways to proficiency In foreign languages. Not just immersion. Seems like a great opportunity for those it works out for. But a lot leave it at the higher levels.

In other foreign languages in APS? Yep. In Spanish in other school districts? Yep. In Spanish in APS? Don't count on it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As much as this forum talks about ATS, you know they are doing something right. Ha!

Knowing what we know now, I wish instead of the Spanish immersion program, we would have at least tried for the lottery at ATS. C'est la vie!

Same. I wouldn’t do immersion again and we won’t do it for middle school even though that is where it’s supposedly starts to come together for kids . APS needs to be more upfront about that.

Then I hope you don't care if your kids learns Spanish, because regular high school Spanish instruction in APS is horrible.

Lots of ways to proficiency In foreign languages. Not just immersion. Seems like a great opportunity for those it works out for. But a lot leave it at the higher levels.

In other foreign languages in APS? Yep. In Spanish in other school districts? Yep. In Spanish in APS? Don't count on it.

We'll take our chances that our kid can become proficient, perhaps even fluent, in a foreign language without continuing in immersion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to state my personal desire to not turn APS into a lottery of ATS, specialized school options. Neighborhood schools have tremendous value and having your children be able to wander the streets with their friends and knowing the families in each house is worth a lot more to me than these specialized options and knowing that MY school is the BEST scoring elementary school in Arlington is so stupid to me I can’t even tell you.

You do realize that some neighborhoods are split up and not everyone is assigned to a school full of SFHs where the kids can just wander the streets, right?

And there are ways to connect with your neighborhood community so your kids still know the other kids and "wander the streets" with them. Does your neighborhood have community events like holiday parades, block parties, community service in the park days, babysitting co-op, parent group? Or you get to know your neighbors, host pot-lucks in the front or back yard, take walks with your kids and talk to the others out in their yards, etc? Just because your kid goes to an option school doesn't mean they can't also have friends and know the people in the neighborhood. My neighborhood is full of kids going to several different schools (every option school you can list as well as different private schools); yet we and our kids still know those kids and their parents - or at least several of them....we don't know everyone in the neighborhood and now that we're in high school, we're learning about others we didn't even know lived in our neighborhood.

That flew right over your head. Many kids are assigned to schools with multi family housing or in busy areas where they can’t wander the streets. As a PP said, not every neighborhood in Arlington is Mayberry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As much as this forum talks about ATS, you know they are doing something right. Ha!

Knowing what we know now, I wish instead of the Spanish immersion program, we would have at least tried for the lottery at ATS. C'est la vie!

Same. I wouldn’t do immersion again and we won’t do it for middle school even though that is where it’s supposedly starts to come together for kids . APS needs to be more upfront about that.

Then I hope you don't care if your kids learns Spanish, because regular high school Spanish instruction in APS is horrible.

Why so nasty about other families saying immersion wasn't for them? I don't see anyone attacking immersion. They'd just make a different choice now. It sounds like all the option schools have their pros and cons and are not for every kid. Some people want their kids to speak spanish, some want their kid to play more and worry about achievement less, some want more structure and traditional teaching. It's great APS offers these things to people.