Why do donut hole families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

THAT WAS ME!!

And I have heard privileged douches my whole life make assumptions about someone's incorrect assumptions about people's intelligence when they find out where they went to college. My neighborhood is filled with these legacy Ivy types that thumb their noses at the state school kids.

I worked full=time every summer and had a part-time job all through high school and undergrad. My full financial needs=based friends didn't' have to work.

It was me too. And my problem with the so-called donut hole family is that you are all upholding the same myth that the best job applicants come from the best schools. That cultural assumption needs to change.

How heavily does your employer recruit at Salisbury State and Frostburg State vs. higher ranked schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because it just feels unfair to people that if they were richer or poorer, their kids might have more options. It isn't necessarily unfair, or maybe it is, but this is how people feel. I also think that many donut hole families have parents who attended top private universities at a time when they were more affordable and it is a shock that their kids can't do the same, even though they have been saving for years. We are not a donut hole family, so this is just my guess as to how people feel.

Yes. It's if we were just a little bit poorer we could have gone to pretty much any school with financial aid and not have the very huge loans required to go to those private, selective LAC or ivy type colleges.

But you realize that narrative is a lie right? That you have fallen for a lie.

The vast majority of schools in this country don't guarantee to meet full need. Of the schools that do meet full need, most of them are going by a figure that requires loans, and those loans would be much harder for a lower income family to pay off than they would be for you.

I don't know any lower income kids who didn't work during college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

THAT WAS ME!!

And I have heard privileged douches my whole life make assumptions about someone's incorrect assumptions about people's intelligence when they find out where they went to college. My neighborhood is filled with these legacy Ivy types that thumb their noses at the state school kids.

I worked full=time every summer and had a part-time job all through high school and undergrad. My full financial needs=based friends didn't' have to work.

It was me too. And my problem with the so-called donut hole family is that you are all upholding the same myth that the best job applicants come from the best schools. That cultural assumption needs to change.

Until it does, people will be angry and resentful that they aren't rich or poor enough to afford something. Every other luxury good is priced in a way that it's clearly a luxury. Education relies on assumptions about how much a family can afford that results in some families being expected to pay half of their income and some none.

Actually housing is also that way in many places. Oh well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

THAT WAS ME!!

And I have heard privileged douches my whole life make assumptions about someone's incorrect assumptions about people's intelligence when they find out where they went to college. My neighborhood is filled with these legacy Ivy types that thumb their noses at the state school kids.

I worked full=time every summer and had a part-time job all through high school and undergrad. My full financial needs=based friends didn't' have to work.

+1

How many times have we heard elite colleges admissions used as a proxy for achievement on this board?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

But that's the problem, college expenses have become exploitative for most family budgets. As PP suggests, your entire adult life you're now supposed to be either saving for college or paying off your loans. It's basically become a third layer of taxation in addition to state and federal.

College costs are INDEFENSIBLE here in the US. No other country in the world has such expensive university education, and yet many have excellent institutions. It IS exploitative.

It's like the cost of healthcare in this country. It does not need to be that high! Other wealthy nations do it for much less.

But here capitalism rules, the federal government has very little regulatory control compared to other countries... and we are left with this. Very little upward mobility in an erstwhile upwardly mobile country.

So you're all right where universities want you, suckers: bickering amongst yourselves, and forgetting that you are all being exploited BY THEM.

+1

Only in the US would people compare a university education with a luxury car.

Because only in the US do people feel entitled to the tippy top ranked universities for their kids, no matter what.
Most of Europe is not attending Cambridge or Oxford for undergrad. They are attending a nearby local university. Their kid was "tracked for college" sometime around 12/13 yo and if they do well on the testing that day, they may not be eligible for a STEM major 5 years later. Nobody is saying you can't get an education. We literally have hundreds of great choices, many offering merit. There are ways to attend college for minimal costs, you just wont attend a Top tier university. Just like much of Europe does not attend a Top tier university for their undergrad.

Wait a sec here. Most of the UK doesn't go to Oxbridge because they can't get in, not because they can't pay! We are talking about getting in to schools you can't pay for. In France for example, if you get into Polytechnique (the top engineering school), your tuition bill can be covered by military service following your studies, or in most cases, your first employer pays off your bill as part of the job offer. You rarely hear about someone in France qualifying for one of these schools and not going because they can't afford it.

The bolded is true in the US too. That's what ROTC is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

THAT WAS ME!!

And I have heard privileged douches my whole life make assumptions about someone's incorrect assumptions about people's intelligence when they find out where they went to college. My neighborhood is filled with these legacy Ivy types that thumb their noses at the state school kids.

I worked full=time every summer and had a part-time job all through high school and undergrad. My full financial needs=based friends didn't' have to work.

It was me too. And my problem with the so-called donut hole family is that you are all upholding the same myth that the best job applicants come from the best schools. That cultural assumption needs to change.

How heavily does your employer recruit at Salisbury State and Frostburg State vs. higher ranked schools?

They don’t hire new grads but obviously they hired me, from Ho Hum State.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because it just feels unfair to people that if they were richer or poorer, their kids might have more options. It isn't necessarily unfair, or maybe it is, but this is how people feel. I also think that many donut hole families have parents who attended top private universities at a time when they were more affordable and it is a shock that their kids can't do the same, even though they have been saving for years. We are not a donut hole family, so this is just my guess as to how people feel.

Yes. It's if we were just a little bit poorer we could have gone to pretty much any school with financial aid and not have the very huge loans required to go to those private, selective LAC or ivy type colleges.

But you realize that narrative is a lie right? That you have fallen for a lie.

The vast majority of schools in this country don't guarantee to meet full need. Of the schools that do meet full need, most of them are going by a figure that requires loans, and those loans would be much harder for a lower income family to pay off than they would be for you.

I don't know any lower income kids who didn't work during college.

We are talking about the most elite colleges, which ARE meet need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because it just feels unfair to people that if they were richer or poorer, their kids might have more options. It isn't necessarily unfair, or maybe it is, but this is how people feel. I also think that many donut hole families have parents who attended top private universities at a time when they were more affordable and it is a shock that their kids can't do the same, even though they have been saving for years. We are not a donut hole family, so this is just my guess as to how people feel.

Yes. It's if we were just a little bit poorer we could have gone to pretty much any school with financial aid and not have the very huge loans required to go to those private, selective LAC or ivy type colleges.

But you realize that narrative is a lie right? That you have fallen for a lie.

The vast majority of schools in this country don't guarantee to meet full need. Of the schools that do meet full need, most of them are going by a figure that requires loans, and those loans would be much harder for a lower income family to pay off than they would be for you.

I don't know any lower income kids who didn't work during college.

You just explained why there is so much pressure to get into full need met without loans schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

THAT WAS ME!!

And I have heard privileged douches my whole life make assumptions about someone's incorrect assumptions about people's intelligence when they find out where they went to college. My neighborhood is filled with these legacy Ivy types that thumb their noses at the state school kids.

I worked full=time every summer and had a part-time job all through high school and undergrad. My full financial needs=based friends didn't' have to work.

It was me too. And my problem with the so-called donut hole family is that you are all upholding the same myth that the best job applicants come from the best schools. That cultural assumption needs to change.

Until it does, people will be angry and resentful that they aren't rich or poor enough to afford something. Every other luxury good is priced in a way that it's clearly a luxury. Education relies on assumptions about how much a family can afford that results in some families being expected to pay half of their income and some none.

Actually housing is also that way in many places. Oh well.

Where can I purchase the nicest luxury house in a neighborhood for one price if I'm rich and receive the same house for free if I'm poor, because that's Ivy league pricing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

But that's the problem, college expenses have become exploitative for most family budgets. As PP suggests, your entire adult life you're now supposed to be either saving for college or paying off your loans. It's basically become a third layer of taxation in addition to state and federal.

College costs are INDEFENSIBLE here in the US. No other country in the world has such expensive university education, and yet many have excellent institutions. It IS exploitative.

It's like the cost of healthcare in this country. It does not need to be that high! Other wealthy nations do it for much less.

But here capitalism rules, the federal government has very little regulatory control compared to other countries... and we are left with this. Very little upward mobility in an erstwhile upwardly mobile country.

So you're all right where universities want you, suckers: bickering amongst yourselves, and forgetting that you are all being exploited BY THEM.

+1

Only in the US would people compare a university education with a luxury car.

Because only in the US do people feel entitled to the tippy top ranked universities for their kids, no matter what.
Most of Europe is not attending Cambridge or Oxford for undergrad. They are attending a nearby local university. Their kid was "tracked for college" sometime around 12/13 yo and if they do well on the testing that day, they may not be eligible for a STEM major 5 years later. Nobody is saying you can't get an education. We literally have hundreds of great choices, many offering merit. There are ways to attend college for minimal costs, you just wont attend a Top tier university. Just like much of Europe does not attend a Top tier university for their undergrad.

Wait a sec here. Most of the UK doesn't go to Oxbridge because they can't get in, not because they can't pay! We are talking about getting in to schools you can't pay for. In France for example, if you get into Polytechnique (the top engineering school), your tuition bill can be covered by military service following your studies, or in most cases, your first employer pays off your bill as part of the job offer. You rarely hear about someone in France qualifying for one of these schools and not going because they can't afford it.

The bolded is true in the US too. That's what ROTC is.

It's not the same at all. I don't have time to go into the details now, but if you read up on it, you will understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because it just feels unfair to people that if they were richer or poorer, their kids might have more options. It isn't necessarily unfair, or maybe it is, but this is how people feel. I also think that many donut hole families have parents who attended top private universities at a time when they were more affordable and it is a shock that their kids can't do the same, even though they have been saving for years. We are not a donut hole family, so this is just my guess as to how people feel.

Yes. It's if we were just a little bit poorer we could have gone to pretty much any school with financial aid and not have the very huge loans required to go to those private, selective LAC or ivy type colleges.

But you realize that narrative is a lie right? That you have fallen for a lie.

The vast majority of schools in this country don't guarantee to meet full need. Of the schools that do meet full need, most of them are going by a figure that requires loans, and those loans would be much harder for a lower income family to pay off than they would be for you.

I don't know any lower income kids who didn't work during college.

Low income kids working has shown that they miss out on internships/clubs. Now FA includes spending money do they don’t have to work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

That's not true. College costs have increased so much families can't hope to deny themselves every luxury to meet that cost. We're fortunate that we can afford any college, but most people can't, even if they tighten their belt.

Please don't be so ignorant and smug.

But they can afford MOST colleges. So instead of complaining they can't afford the most expensive ones, they should focus on the hundreds of great colleges they can afford and recognized how privileged that is.

I can't afford a $100K car, so I don't complain about it, I don't buy it, I find a Honda/Toyota for $25-30K that is a great car and buy it.

Which is why kids are going to SEC schools

there are many options besides SEC schools. But yes, choose whatever you like best that you can afford. There are many options out there for good students. You may need to step down just "1 tier" but your smart kid will still get an amazing education. It's what they do while at college that matters.

What are those options?

Going to Salisbury you mean?

NP. Correct. Or Towson or UMBC.

Exactly so what donut hole families are complaining about is if one of us just quit our job we could send our kid to a T50 school with FA, or go to Towson/UMBC/Salisbury/

It literally made more sense for me to quit my job for 4 years. Isn't that silly.

thanks COVID for being laid off, it worked out. So we now had a salary of $120 and we got FA.

That's why many never go off welfare because working doesn't make sense.

They could also go to a small private college that offers merit aid (such as Goucher) or CC -> 4-year. If they have a lot of AP credits they could plan to graduate a year early from college.

or go to a SEC school or get a sports scholarship, easier than merit. My kid was never getting merit aid because he only had a 3.8. My kids are dyslexic so yea no Excelleration.

or quit your job for 4 years and get aid at a top school

Sure got to CC... becuase you make too much money... that's insane.

I know kids with GPA's under 3.0 who get substantial merit aid. Many private colleges in this country offer merit aid to close to 100% of their students. A kid with a 3.8 isn't going to have any problem.

On the other hand, they won't get into the handful of schools that meet need without loans, which are the only schools where kids who are better off financially might be able to argue that that makes them worse off as far as college costs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

THAT WAS ME!!

And I have heard privileged douches my whole life make assumptions about someone's incorrect assumptions about people's intelligence when they find out where they went to college. My neighborhood is filled with these legacy Ivy types that thumb their noses at the state school kids.

I worked full=time every summer and had a part-time job all through high school and undergrad. My full financial needs=based friends didn't' have to work.

It was me too. And my problem with the so-called donut hole family is that you are all upholding the same myth that the best job applicants come from the best schools. That cultural assumption needs to change.

Until it does, people will be angry and resentful that they aren't rich or poor enough to afford something. Every other luxury good is priced in a way that it's clearly a luxury. Education relies on assumptions about how much a family can afford that results in some families being expected to pay half of their income and some none.

Actually housing is also that way in many places. Oh well.

Where can I purchase the nicest luxury house in a neighborhood for one price if I'm rich and receive the same house for free if I'm poor, because that's Ivy league pricing

This, but you have to take loans for that house if you're not rich or poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

THAT WAS ME!!

And I have heard privileged douches my whole life make assumptions about someone's incorrect assumptions about people's intelligence when they find out where they went to college. My neighborhood is filled with these legacy Ivy types that thumb their noses at the state school kids.

I worked full=time every summer and had a part-time job all through high school and undergrad. My full financial needs=based friends didn't' have to work.

It was me too. And my problem with the so-called donut hole family is that you are all upholding the same myth that the best job applicants come from the best schools. That cultural assumption needs to change.

How heavily does your employer recruit at Salisbury State and Frostburg State vs. higher ranked schools?

They don’t hire new grads but obviously they hired me, from Ho Hum State.

Where did u go? 3rd tier state school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because it just feels unfair to people that if they were richer or poorer, their kids might have more options. It isn't necessarily unfair, or maybe it is, but this is how people feel. I also think that many donut hole families have parents who attended top private universities at a time when they were more affordable and it is a shock that their kids can't do the same, even though they have been saving for years. We are not a donut hole family, so this is just my guess as to how people feel.

Yes. It's if we were just a little bit poorer we could have gone to pretty much any school with financial aid and not have the very huge loans required to go to those private, selective LAC or ivy type colleges.

But you realize that narrative is a lie right? That you have fallen for a lie.

The vast majority of schools in this country don't guarantee to meet full need. Of the schools that do meet full need, most of them are going by a figure that requires loans, and those loans would be much harder for a lower income family to pay off than they would be for you.

I don't know any lower income kids who didn't work during college.

Low income kids working has shown that they miss out on internships/clubs. Now FA includes spending money do they don’t have to work.

What schools do that? I'm a high school teacher, so I talk to lots of college students coming to visit during break. How many low income kids do you know who get FA and don't have PT jobs in college?