Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

It is interesting that the younger voters who do not watch or get their news from the mainstream/corporate media sources (that are very pro Israel) do not support Israel.

You mean the younger voters who get their “news” from TikTok and celebrated bin Laden’s letter?

They wouldn’t know UN Resolution 181 if it waked up and kicked them in the a**.

If there’s one thing that this situation has conclusively demonstrated, it’s that the current crop of 18-24 year olds are complete f***ing morons.

The Bin Laden letter timing was really interesting because it seemed like a red herring from the pro Palestine stuff going on Tiktok. It’s like some entity wanted to connect Bin Laden to Hamas and failed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

History will not support this assertion because the assertion is wrong. Will the moronic attitudes of younger voters become the norm? Maybe, maybe not. But if they do, this country will have a heckuva lot more to worry about than just policy toward Israel.

I am and I know many older Jewish voters who feel antipathy toward Israel right now, and for the past several years. We know how we were indoctrinated as kids. So, no, it isn't about media, or Tik Tok or anything. But we aren't dumb enough to not vote for Biden.

I hope Biden moves aside for 2024. He is carrying a lot of baggage. And, yes, you make an excellent point about not being "dumb enough to not vote for Biden." The young Bernie supporters in 2016 who wouldn't vote for Hillary are in part responsible for Trump.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

It is interesting that the younger voters who do not watch or get their news from the mainstream/corporate media sources (that are very pro Israel) do not support Israel.

You mean the younger voters who get their “news” from TikTok and celebrated bin Laden’s letter?

They wouldn’t know UN Resolution 181 if it waked up and kicked them in the a**.

If there’s one thing that this situation has conclusively demonstrated, it’s that the current crop of 18-24 year olds are complete f***ing morons.

Yes, the minimum voting age needs to be raised.

Younger voters are very important to any successful candidate. That’s how Obama was able to beat Hillary because he was anti Iraq war and that attracted young voters. How selfish old people are. Young people are the ones who have to go to war and die if the elders keep messing up the world

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

History will not support this assertion because the assertion is wrong. Will the moronic attitudes of younger voters become the norm? Maybe, maybe not. But if they do, this country will have a heckuva lot more to worry about than just policy toward Israel.

I am and I know many older Jewish voters who feel antipathy toward Israel right now, and for the past several years. We know how we were indoctrinated as kids. So, no, it isn't about media, or Tik Tok or anything. But we aren't dumb enough to not vote for Biden.

I hope Biden moves aside for 2024. He is carrying a lot of baggage. And, yes, you make an excellent point about not being "dumb enough to not vote for Biden." The young Bernie supporters in 2016 who wouldn't vote for Hillary are in part responsible for Trump.

Biden has us closer to WW3 than any other President including Trump. Why are we facing off with Russia and now Iran and it’s obvious we are covering up scuffles and don’t want to fight both directly ? Our army is also getting smaller in terms of numbers and nobody’s talking about it. This is shallot when a big false flag attack happens . Younger people are noticing this and are saying heck no to being potentially drafted to WW3. These are the kids who don’t want to travel and fight let alone travel and eat . They will Uber Eats for food that’s a 2 block radius away

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you have 1 group, known terrorist group. Kills 1200. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Rapes women.

And you have another group, moralist army. Kills 25,000. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Shoots their own hostages and survivors sheltering in churches.

Pretty bad when the terrorists somehow sound more reasonable.

But of course they don’t. There’s a good side in this war and, sorry, Hamas ain’t it.

The "good side" is the one that killed 20x more people, including their own hostages, and used snipers to kill women and children hiding in churches?

There are no "good sides" in this war. There are terrorists and murderers. On both sides. There are war crimes/criminals. On both sides. That what the sides are here.

True believers will never be capable of seeing the truth in this. If Bibi and the ghosts of Begin and Meir arrived on their doorstep and signed a joint declaration outlining the countless atrocities committed by Zionists in the name of Israel over the past 75+ years, they would claim it was Arab trickery and shout down anyone trying to discuss it, and shove aside anyone trying to glance down and read it.

Yes, theyd really rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend everyone else is antisemitic and that palestinian children are worth less than dogs. Whatever they can so they can sleep at night while their "good side" is out on another blood thirsty rampage.

I cant believe I'm not seeing more people (anyone??) on the pro-israel side speaking out against the murder of their own hostages or the church sniper murdering innocent sheltering women. Like how brainwashed do you have to be to still be OK with "your side" killing these people and still supporting them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you have 1 group, known terrorist group. Kills 1200. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Rapes women.

And you have another group, moralist army. Kills 25,000. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Shoots their own hostages and survivors sheltering in churches.

Pretty bad when the terrorists somehow sound more reasonable.

But of course they don’t. There’s a good side in this war and, sorry, Hamas ain’t it.

The "good side" is the one that killed 20x more people, including their own hostages, and used snipers to kill women and children hiding in churches?

There are no "good sides" in this war. There are terrorists and murderers. On both sides. There are war crimes/criminals. On both sides. That what the sides are here.

It's so very sad. You are right -- there are always horrible atrocities during war, and people do things they would not dream of doing under normal circumstances. There are harrowing stories coming out of Gaze of deliberate mass executions by the IDF. For example:
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/israeli-forces-execute-15-palestinians-in-gaza-city-home--so?fbclid=IwAR2knmh4oScHx8J-fkNi0DBgYD7UjuhJIPuZrxSndh9olFtqtoUixFaM_oM
I heard this same story about the Annan family from a Palestinian friend who is outside Gaza but gets information via phone calls with family members inside the Gaza Strip (communications are often down, so this isn't easy). He heard that the IDF handcuffed and blindfolded all the men in the Annan family and then executed them in front of the women and children. There are reports that this is becoming a trend. I truly hope this is untrue or at least exaggerated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

You don't think Israel's military and intelligence is enough to stand up to 100 terrorists who breach a wall?

If it were any other weekend, yea but that weekend was a Jewish holiday and the settlers go to the West Bank en masse for some three day pilgrimage so the IDF was largely assigned there for a few days (Oct 4-7) to protect the settlers from themselves . Things got out of hand on Day 1 of the pilgrimage on Oct 4th so more IDF had to come .

Whoever planned it in Hamas had to know lots about the West Bank and this holiday and that the IDF would would be lighter on the Gaza border during that weekend because of settler security duty would be done but they probably didn’t predict that so much IDF would be sent to West Bank. They lucked out because the settlers went extra hard with the squabbles this year

[Anonymous]

The Egyptian government claims they have a mole in Hamas and that they told Israel to watch out for that weekend in particular. I believe them but clearly Israel didn’t think they were serious

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you have 1 group, known terrorist group. Kills 1200. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Rapes women.

And you have another group, moralist army. Kills 25,000. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Shoots their own hostages and survivors sheltering in churches.

Pretty bad when the terrorists somehow sound more reasonable.

But of course they don’t. There’s a good side in this war and, sorry, Hamas ain’t it.

The "good side" is the one that killed 20x more people, including their own hostages, and used snipers to kill women and children hiding in churches?

There are no "good sides" in this war. There are terrorists and murderers. On both sides. There are war crimes/criminals. On both sides. That what the sides are here.

It's so very sad. You are right -- there are always horrible atrocities during war, and people do things they would not dream of doing under normal circumstances. There are harrowing stories coming out of Gaze of deliberate mass executions by the IDF. For example:
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/israeli-forces-execute-15-palestinians-in-gaza-city-home--so?fbclid=IwAR2knmh4oScHx8J-fkNi0DBgYD7UjuhJIPuZrxSndh9olFtqtoUixFaM_oM
I heard this same story about the Annan family from a Palestinian friend who is outside Gaza but gets information via phone calls with family members inside the Gaza Strip (communications are often down, so this isn't easy). He heard that the IDF handcuffed and blindfolded all the men in the Annan family and then executed them in front of the women and children. There are reports that this is becoming a trend. I truly hope this is untrue or at least exaggerated.

Oh my gosh that is horrific. I hope your friend and their family are coping ok

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

It is interesting that the younger voters who do not watch or get their news from the mainstream/corporate media sources (that are very pro Israel) do not support Israel.

You mean the younger voters who get their “news” from TikTok and celebrated bin Laden’s letter?

They wouldn’t know UN Resolution 181 if it waked up and kicked them in the a**.

If there’s one thing that this situation has conclusively demonstrated, it’s that the current crop of 18-24 year olds are complete f***ing morons.

Yes, the minimum voting age needs to be raised.

Younger voters are very important to any successful candidate. That’s how Obama was able to beat Hillary because he was anti Iraq war and that attracted young voters. How selfish old people are. Young people are the ones who have to go to war and die if the elders keep messing up the world

There's no draft. If you're going to war, it's because you've chosen to go to war.

And no Americans are going to war in Gaza, in any case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

You don't think Israel's military and intelligence is enough to stand up to 100 terrorists who breach a wall?

If it were any other weekend, yea but that weekend was a Jewish holiday and the settlers go to the West Bank en masse for some three day pilgrimage so the IDF was largely assigned there for a few days (Oct 4-7) to protect the settlers from themselves . Things got out of hand on Day 1 of the pilgrimage on Oct 4th so more IDF had to come .

Whoever planned it in Hamas had to know lots about the West Bank and this holiday and that the IDF would would be lighter on the Gaza border during that weekend because of settler security duty would be done but they probably didn’t predict that so much IDF would be sent to West Bank. They lucked out because the settlers went extra hard with the squabbles this year

Ok, so beef up security on the Gaza border. Problem solved, and it doesn't even require killing 20,000 people.

[Anonymous]

Disgusting people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you have 1 group, known terrorist group. Kills 1200. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Rapes women.

And you have another group, moralist army. Kills 25,000. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Shoots their own hostages and survivors sheltering in churches.

Pretty bad when the terrorists somehow sound more reasonable.

But of course they don’t. There’s a good side in this war and, sorry, Hamas ain’t it.

The "good side" is the one that killed 20x more people, including their own hostages, and used snipers to kill women and children hiding in churches?

There are no "good sides" in this war. There are terrorists and murderers. On both sides. There are war crimes/criminals. On both sides. That what the sides are here.

True believers will never be capable of seeing the truth in this. If Bibi and the ghosts of Begin and Meir arrived on their doorstep and signed a joint declaration outlining the countless atrocities committed by Zionists in the name of Israel over the past 75+ years, they would claim it was Arab trickery and shout down anyone trying to discuss it, and shove aside anyone trying to glance down and read it.

Yes, theyd really rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend everyone else is antisemitic and that palestinian children are worth less than dogs. Whatever they can so they can sleep at night while their "good side" is out on another blood thirsty rampage.

I cant believe I'm not seeing more people (anyone??) on the pro-israel side speaking out against the murder of their own hostages or the church sniper murdering innocent sheltering women. Like how brainwashed do you have to be to still be OK with "your side" killing these people and still supporting them?

+1

The silence from Israel supporters about the IDF killing Israelis is deafening. They complain that womens groups from other countries don't make a bigger deal about rapes by Hamas (why should they?), but they say nothing about the IDF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

Aw, “feelings” person who thinks the U.S. will never, ever reevaluate its relationship with Israel!

DP.

I’d LOVE for someone to explain why it’s in our national interest to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.

I see no upside at all.

We’d lose intelligence, the region’s most effective military (and only one with nuclear capability), and a counterbalance to Iran.

Not only would we lose these advantages, but Israel would undoubtedly respond by seeking a new patron—either Russia or China.

Bad for us all around.

And for what advantage? No material gain with ME govts (they DGAF), no new allies, no new intelligence, and an unconstrained Iran.

I don’t see any argument that another course is better for the US.

I think that bolded part is true and important. The Israel of today is a lot more pro-Russia than the Israel of our childhood. I wouldn't doubt for a second this government's willingness to "switch sides". That would be an absolute catastrophe for the US because they have all of our top technology.

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Anonymous wrote:So you have 1 group, known terrorist group. Kills 1200. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Rapes women.

And you have another group, moralist army. Kills 25,000. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Shoots their own hostages and survivors sheltering in churches.

Pretty bad when the terrorists somehow sound more reasonable.

But of course they don’t. There’s a good side in this war and, sorry, Hamas ain’t it.

The "good side" is the one that killed 20x more people, including their own hostages, and used snipers to kill women and children hiding in churches?

There are no "good sides" in this war. There are terrorists and murderers. On both sides. There are war crimes/criminals. On both sides. That what the sides are here.

True believers will never be capable of seeing the truth in this. If Bibi and the ghosts of Begin and Meir arrived on their doorstep and signed a joint declaration outlining the countless atrocities committed by Zionists in the name of Israel over the past 75+ years, they would claim it was Arab trickery and shout down anyone trying to discuss it, and shove aside anyone trying to glance down and read it.

Yes, theyd really rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend everyone else is antisemitic and that palestinian children are worth less than dogs. Whatever they can so they can sleep at night while their "good side" is out on another blood thirsty rampage.

I cant believe I'm not seeing more people (anyone??) on the pro-israel side speaking out against the murder of their own hostages or the church sniper murdering innocent sheltering women. Like how brainwashed do you have to be to still be OK with "your side" killing these people and still supporting them?

+1

The silence from Israel supporters about the IDF killing Israelis is deafening. They complain that womens groups from other countries don't make a bigger deal about rapes by Hamas (why should they?), but they say nothing about the IDF.

It isn't just the killing of the hostages they were meant to be saving. They intentionally shot and killed shirtless people waving white flags. That's really really bad.