Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

It is interesting that the younger voters who do not watch or get their news from the mainstream/corporate media sources (that are very pro Israel) do not support Israel.

You mean the younger voters who get their “news” from TikTok and celebrated bin Laden’s letter?

They wouldn’t know UN Resolution 181 if it waked up and kicked them in the a**.

If there’s one thing that this situation has conclusively demonstrated, it’s that the current crop of 18-24 year olds are complete f***ing morons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

It is interesting that the younger voters who do not watch or get their news from the mainstream/corporate media sources (that are very pro Israel) do not support Israel.

You mean the younger voters who get their “news” from TikTok and celebrated bin Laden’s letter?

They wouldn’t know UN Resolution 181 if it waked up and kicked them in the a**.

If there’s one thing that this situation has conclusively demonstrated, it’s that the current crop of 18-24 year olds are complete f***ing morons.

Yes, the minimum voting age needs to be raised.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

History will not support this assertion because the assertion is wrong. Will the moronic attitudes of younger voters become the norm? Maybe, maybe not. But if they do, this country will have a heckuva lot more to worry about than just policy toward Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you have 1 group, known terrorist group. Kills 1200. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Rapes women.

And you have another group, moralist army. Kills 25,000. Commits war crimes. Kills babies. Shoots their own hostages and survivors sheltering in churches.

Pretty bad when the terrorists somehow sound more reasonable.

To be fair, Hamas and its associates probably killed about 600 people. About half of those killed on 10/7 appear to have died by "friendly" fire. Many Israelis are reporting this. Also, Hamas probably did not kill any babies. Certainly, it did not behead 40 babies or hang dead babies on a clothesline, as some propagandists lied. Sadly, Hamas members and/or the attackers that accompanied them probably did rape women, even when you take into account that Israel lies routinely and cannot be trusted. It is unclear why Israel does not allow the Red Cross to conduct an independent investigation into the alleged rapes. I suspect that there were rapes but that the extent of the rapes has been exaggerated.

Good grief. To still be taking this position at this point….

Seems a reasonable position to me. Hamas killed several hundred people. Nobody disputes that Israel killed many of its own people on 10/7, possibly as a result of the Hannibal Directive. The "40 beheaded babies" story was a flat-out lie. This is also not disputed. Rapes almost certainly happened. Israel lies a lot, so it would be naive to take every accusation it makes at face value, but the rape claims appear to be true.

Nope. Unreasonable. Minimizes Hamas’ massacre.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

You don't think Israel's military and intelligence is enough to stand up to 100 terrorists who breach a wall?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

Aw, “feelings” person who thinks the U.S. will never, ever reevaluate its relationship with Israel!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

Aw, “feelings” person who thinks the U.S. will never, ever reevaluate its relationship with Israel!

DP.

I’d LOVE for someone to explain why it’s in our national interest to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.

I see no upside at all.

We’d lose intelligence, the region’s most effective military (and only one with nuclear capability), and a counterbalance to Iran.

Not only would we lose these advantages, but Israel would undoubtedly respond by seeking a new patron—either Russia or China.

Bad for us all around.

And for what advantage? No material gain with ME govts (they DGAF), no new allies, no new intelligence, and an unconstrained Iran.

I don’t see any argument that another course is better for the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

Aw, “feelings” person who thinks the U.S. will never, ever reevaluate its relationship with Israel!

DP.

I’d LOVE for someone to explain why it’s in our national interest to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.

I see no upside at all.

We’d lose intelligence, the region’s most effective military (and only one with nuclear capability), and a counterbalance to Iran.

Not only would we lose these advantages, but Israel would undoubtedly respond by seeking a new patron—either Russia or China.

Bad for us all around.

And for what advantage? No material gain with ME govts (they DGAF), no new allies, no new intelligence, and an unconstrained Iran.

I don’t see any argument that another course is better for the US.

I can think of several, but I won’t pretend that you have an objective mind in the matter.

You’re personally invested in the status quo. Hardly someone worth engaging in what should be honest debate of the merits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

Aw, “feelings” person who thinks the U.S. will never, ever reevaluate its relationship with Israel!

DP.

I’d LOVE for someone to explain why it’s in our national interest to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.

I see no upside at all.

We’d lose intelligence, the region’s most effective military (and only one with nuclear capability), and a counterbalance to Iran.

Not only would we lose these advantages, but Israel would undoubtedly respond by seeking a new patron—either Russia or China.

Bad for us all around.

And for what advantage? No material gain with ME govts (they DGAF), no new allies, no new intelligence, and an unconstrained Iran.

I don’t see any argument that another course is better for the US.

I can think of several, but I won’t pretend that you have an objective mind in the matter.

You’re personally invested in the status quo. Hardly someone worth engaging in what should be honest debate of the merits.

Personally invested?

In no way, shape, or form.

(FYI, DP means "different poster")

How 'bout a substantive response?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

It is interesting that the younger voters who do not watch or get their news from the mainstream/corporate media sources (that are very pro Israel) do not support Israel.

Yes. Younger voters also generally don't have the knee-jerk paternalism toward people who are "not quite white," like Palestinians. They are quick to identify and reject racism, oppression, and colonialism. With the Holocaust now 78+ years in the past and most of their Jewish friends living relatively safe and privileged lives in the U.S., they also don't have the reflexive sympathy toward Zionism that their elders had. Young Jewish people are often among Israel's biggest critics.

Young people are also much less formally religious than their elders, so they don't buy into the fundamentalist Christian idea that we're all going to be raptured when all the Jews are in Israel or that God promised the Holy Land to the Jews. Forty percent of millennials are "nones," and of those that aren't, many of them are more academic and philosophical about religion than conventional or traditional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

Aw, “feelings” person who thinks the U.S. will never, ever reevaluate its relationship with Israel!

DP.

I’d LOVE for someone to explain why it’s in our national interest to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.

I see no upside at all.

We’d lose intelligence, the region’s most effective military (and only one with nuclear capability), and a counterbalance to Iran.

Not only would we lose these advantages, but Israel would undoubtedly respond by seeking a new patron—either Russia or China.

Bad for us all around.

And for what advantage? No material gain with ME govts (they DGAF), no new allies, no new intelligence, and an unconstrained Iran.

I don’t see any argument that another course is better for the US.

But don't you think that if the US stopped blindly sponsoring Israel, our relationship with other ME states would be much less adversarial and more collaborative? Perhaps we would stop radicalizing them, and they'd be more inclined to meet us halfway. Israel's view of the US is purely transactional. We're the dumb stooge that provides military muscle and the big bucks, and we're "easily manipulated." Netanyahu has said as much in so many words. No wonder the Middle East doesn't trust us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

Aw, “feelings” person who thinks the U.S. will never, ever reevaluate its relationship with Israel!

DP.

I’d LOVE for someone to explain why it’s in our national interest to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.

I see no upside at all.

We’d lose intelligence, the region’s most effective military (and only one with nuclear capability), and a counterbalance to Iran.

Not only would we lose these advantages, but Israel would undoubtedly respond by seeking a new patron—either Russia or China.

Bad for us all around.

And for what advantage? No material gain with ME govts (they DGAF), no new allies, no new intelligence, and an unconstrained Iran.

I don’t see any argument that another course is better for the US.

The U.S. has a military industrial complex problem. Israel is a big part of that problem, on multiple levels.

Israel also provides intelligence that is, at best, unreliable; and at worst, fundamentally self-serving and essentially worthless. They don’t permit the U.S. to use their airspace, they intentionally attacked a U.S. naval vessel and murdered American sailors, and they persistently attempt to bind the U.S. to their geopolitical conflicts. They also repeatedly spy on our elected officials, and they don’t honor extradition requests.

As for the IDF, they are hardly effective, even with the vast advantage of U.S. training and weaponry. Without it, they are a bunch of awkward misfits with strabismus who are scared of their own shadow without the cover of the massive U.S. military advantage. Trigger-happy goons who couldn’t shoot straight to save their own lives.

Counterbalance to Iran? Like Syria and most other supposed hostile actors in the region, the U.S.’s relationship with Israel is THE sole reason a supposed counterbalance is even a credible excuse. Without U.S. foreign policy failures associated with blind, unconditional support of Israel, though, the hostilities have no further fuel. And no, nobody is buying the “they hate our way of life!” nonsense any longer, so don’t bother.

Cold War and Sinophobia boogeyman don’t carry water, either. The U.S. shouldn’t be cowed into supporting a foreign nation state on the unfounded basis that its own security is jeopardized if it doesn’t - that’s irrational and disgusting, frankly. It’s how mob protection works. Pay me or maybe lightning strikes and the fire burns down your business.

You wouldn’t want that, Uncle Sam, would you?

Lastly, you want to know the advantage? How about just knowing that we stand essentially alone on the global stage by blindly supporting Israel without condition? This happens over and over and over again, but we saw it again just last week: 100+ countries voted in favor of a ceasefire resolution, and the U.S. stubbornly drew the ire of all of them by once again doing the blocking and tackling on Israel’s behalf. Maybe just the advantage of improved cooperation with 100+ other countries is enough of an advantage on its own.

I think so. I’m sure plenty of other people think so, too.

The U.S. relationship with Israel isn’t etched in stone. I know those who purport to be American but only care about Israel will insist otherwise, but the tide may eventually turn at some point. If it does, that pendulum swings really fast - just ask Iran.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

Oh they could do-exist is Israel was a secular country. Israel must drop the Jew state.

That’s absurd. Palestinians want an Islamic state, so you dear, are a hypocrite.

So? Gulf monarchies are Islamic states, and Israel is chomping at the bit to normalize relations with them. I guess the right to have an Islamic state is just like the right of self defense - available only to the right people?

Dude. That's what normalizing relations means. It means now I trust you to stop trying to kill me all the time, so we can live peacefully and have trade that benefits us both. It means both sides give up something - trying to kill you, encouraging others not to have normalized relations with you - because that way we both get something.

Do you expect Hamas to enjoy normalized relations with the people they just slaughtered en masse?

You people are just such dumb idiots when it comes to understanding how compromise and negotiation works. Ceasefire, you screech, so we can kill you! You're so BAD for not letting us just kill you some more!

I am one who never says "you people", but the individuals who think along these lines think they are so clever and that their words have power. They call for ceasefire beacuse of "the children", and they really think that the rest of us do not know and understand that the violence will continue after a ceasefile.

Aw, “feelings” person who thinks the U.S. will never, ever reevaluate its relationship with Israel!

DP.

I’d LOVE for someone to explain why it’s in our national interest to reevaluate our relationship with Israel.

I see no upside at all.

We’d lose intelligence, the region’s most effective military (and only one with nuclear capability), and a counterbalance to Iran.

Not only would we lose these advantages, but Israel would undoubtedly respond by seeking a new patron—either Russia or China.

Bad for us all around.

And for what advantage? No material gain with ME govts (they DGAF), no new allies, no new intelligence, and an unconstrained Iran.

I don’t see any argument that another course is better for the US.

But don't you think that if the US stopped blindly sponsoring Israel, our relationship with other ME states would be much less adversarial and more collaborative? Perhaps we would stop radicalizing them, and they'd be more inclined to meet us halfway. Israel's view of the US is purely transactional. We're the dumb stooge that provides military muscle and the big bucks, and we're "easily manipulated." Netanyahu has said as much in so many words. No wonder the Middle East doesn't trust us.

PP here.

I suppose it's possible, but (1) am not sure that the Palestinian issue is really the primary obstacle to better relations (see Iran, for example), and (2) even if it was, don't see that the potential benefit of advantage to the US outweighs the cost.

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Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

You've extended my analogy with Nazi Germany to post-Nazi Germany. The real question is whether pre-1948 Palestine should cease to exist, as you seem to imply it should. Zionists ethnically cleansed the area of Palestinians and, in some cases, massacred them (e.g., the Tantura massacre). Only Russia did some of that to Germany after it lost WW2. In what is now Israel, Palestinians had lived for generations on land that was later acquired by rich settlers from the U.S. So we should really be looking at whether lands conquered by the Nazis should remain under German control after WW2. IMO, Poland should no more have remained part of the Reich than Israel should remain part of Palestine.

You are ignoring the many native Israelis in Israel and their ancestral ties to the land. And you are glossing over the mass sale of land from Palestinians to Jewish people in the 1800 and 1900s- those Palestinians essentially sold their birthright. What is obvious to me is that there are two native peoples inhabiting the same land and the practical solution to the dispute would be a two state solution, since they largely cannot peacefully co-exist.

I'm very skeptical about the "ancestral ties" claim. Yes, the Romans drove out the Jews a couple of millennia ago, but the indigenous people who remained have lived there for thousands of years, while many of the Jews who left mingled with Europeans, North Africans, and people in the Iberian peninsula. I am, in large part, an Ashkenazi Jew, and I have blue eyes, fair skin, and red-blond hair, as do my children. This comes from our central European ancestry. I could probably find a way to claim some land in what is now Israel, but I find that idea immoral. My "ancestral ties" to Europe are at least as strong as they are to what is now Israel, and after thousands of years of my family's absence, I have no claim on that land. I could just as well demand a piece of Poland! The same is true for many of those who have settled in Israel.

The other "ancestral tie" is based on God's supposed promise to Abraham. However, you can follow any of the three major monotheistic religions and nevertheless believe that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses never existed and were literary creations that reflect human efforts to understand the divine. A literal interpretation of ancient scriptures is an all-around losing proposition for everyone. It says more about the thought processes of ancient and primitive people than it does about any God or gods. Modern theological movements generally move toward the abstract and pro-social and away from the literal and tribal.

The real reasons for Jewish claims of land in "Israel" are extremely selfish. The thug who said of stealing a Palestinian home, "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it," was right. These people absolutely are stealing. He was a New Yorker! What "ancestral tie" did he have that the person whose home he stole did not? These people have no morals, and their only allegiance is to feathering their own nests. They operate from narcissism and sociopathy, and that is why Israel has developed into a state that has no problem committing genocide. The U.S. should not be subsidizing this evil.



.

Well, your skepticism is irrelevant. That said, your assertions were reasonable-seeming enough until your last paragraph.

My skepticism will become relevant when/if it is widely shared by the voting public. Attitudes toward Israel are changing very quickly from the old default of support to general disgust.

As to the reasonableness of my last paragraph, I think history will support my assertion that Israel is committing genocide. It will be interesting to revisit this topic 20 years from now.

History will not support this assertion because the assertion is wrong. Will the moronic attitudes of younger voters become the norm? Maybe, maybe not. But if they do, this country will have a heckuva lot more to worry about than just policy toward Israel.

I don't think that's fair at all to younger voters. I think they are smart, well-educated, and think more independently than older voters.