Middle class families - Are you willing to take on a ton of debt for a top college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

List proves nothing. The low tier colleges are probably all boomers and/or equal opportunity hires.

Wrong.

Please stalk the web profiles again, removing non-Caucasians and those over 50 years old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about let the kid go to UVA and help with the down payment? 100k+ in down payment can set them up nicely for life even in expensive areas. I do know 2 families who sent their kids to UMD (this was for engineering though) and later helped them with 150k in down payment, both kids have starter homes in McLean and work in Dulles tech corridor, these kids will be ready to move onto a "nicer" home in McLean in about 5yrs, it's not a bad life.

Eh if you go by these boards, it seems like most UMC families do both (pay for private college plus give kids a hefty down payment) plus pay for fancy weddings.

[Anonymous]

At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am really LOLing at all the VA boosters who think UVA is on par with Columbia.

Ask yourself this. If you had the money and the kid got into both schools, which would you recommend? Columbia is the kind of school that comes with a wealth of connections and opens doors to elite society in the Northeast.

UVA can't give you that except maybe in VA.

You have it backwards. People from elite backgrounds and a wealth of connections attend Columbia; they don't socialize with the kids on aid who have campus jobs and can't jet out to Killington every weekend or blow wads of money in NYC.

Well I disagree about but actually those weren't the connections I was referring to anyway. It's when you go to interview for an internship or entry level job and you get to talk to Columbia grads who would rather take a chance on you then on someone from another school. It's human nature.

You DO know that this same thing happens with grads from pretty much every school (when they encounter other alumni in the workforce), right? Obviously it's not in a similar realm academically, but my sister went to penn state and pretty much every career opportunity she's gotten there's been a penn state connection - penn state is a huge school with a proud, enthusiastic alumni base and they're kind of everywhere. Having that commonality is an easy discussion point. I'm not sure your argument makes any sense.

lol how many penn state grads are at The New Yorker? Maybe one? How many Columbia grads are at those kinds of magazines?

ok, so she gets that $35K/year job at The New Yorker, has a $1000 student loan payment to pay, NY rent to pay, etc. You don't see a problem with this?

Good point. Student loans actually need to be, you know, repaid. Exactly how is a student supposed to take a job in journalism, art, publishing, etc. in a high COL city if he or she has a high three or low four figure loan payment to make every month?

Think with your heads, people.

Think with yours. The OP said the PARENTS would be taking on the loans, not the student.

Well then the parents need to repay them. Will that hurt their ability to save for retirement? Will it mean retirement has to be delayed for a long time? My DH will be ready to retire when our youngest finishes college. Repaying loans does not work with that plan. Also, can they do the same for other kids in the family? Taking out exorbitant loans for one child's education and then not doing that for the rest of the kids is setting up for a lot of family problems.

We've told our kids we can cover the cost of in-state public universities. In reality, I'd probably be willing to stretch another $10K over that IF (big IF) a more expensive big brand name school would provide a real advantage for them pursuing a particular goal. But not $40K extra per year. This assume they have a particular passion that this one school can help them achieve. Otherwise, based on the many people I have worked with and been friends with over my life, I just don't see that the brand name schools offer some amazing advantage over state universities for undergrad. I do think it matters in a lot of fields for grad school so the calculus changes there, but, again, at that point the student should have a particular goal and know how that school will help them achieve it. I'm not going to delay our retirement for years just so my child can go to Columbia to explore and figure out her interests.

selfish

balanced

Many people (including me) believe we owe our kids a college education. Many such people (including me) also believe that "college education" does not mean, "the most expensive school DC can get into."

That's why you shoudl be saving ahead of time! The rule of thumb for middle class families is 1/3 savings, 1/3 cash flow, and 1/3 loans. Come on, anyone can do 1/3 savings for a 70k a year school. You have 18 years. You can't save up ~ 100k in that time?

You realize that 1/3 savings needs to include retirement too? And saving for emergencies, major purchases, etc. And childcare is an exorbitant expense? Most families I know didn't start seriously saving for college until after the daycare bill started.

But, sure, lets say parents decide they want to cover a college that costs $70K at the time they start saving and they start saving when Jr. is a baby. Assuming college costs don't rise faster than the returns on their investments (not always a safe assumption), a basic college savings calculator says they'll need to put aside about $1300 per month for one child. The average family is 2 kids and you don't want to deprive either one so now you are saving $2600 per month or $31,200 per year. And you haven't saved yet for retirement. On a "middle class" income of $100-$150K you'd need to be saving more like half or more to save at that level for college plus a reasonable level of retirement. Must be nice to live in your little bubble where "anyone" has an extra $2600 to stash away each month.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I am really LOLing at all the VA boosters who think UVA is on par with Columbia.

Ask yourself this. If you had the money and the kid got into both schools, which would you recommend? Columbia is the kind of school that comes with a wealth of connections and opens doors to elite society in the Northeast.

UVA can't give you that except maybe in VA.

You have it backwards. People from elite backgrounds and a wealth of connections attend Columbia; they don't socialize with the kids on aid who have campus jobs and can't jet out to Killington every weekend or blow wads of money in NYC.

Well I disagree about but actually those weren't the connections I was referring to anyway. It's when you go to interview for an internship or entry level job and you get to talk to Columbia grads who would rather take a chance on you then on someone from another school. It's human nature.

You DO know that this same thing happens with grads from pretty much every school (when they encounter other alumni in the workforce), right? Obviously it's not in a similar realm academically, but my sister went to penn state and pretty much every career opportunity she's gotten there's been a penn state connection - penn state is a huge school with a proud, enthusiastic alumni base and they're kind of everywhere. Having that commonality is an easy discussion point. I'm not sure your argument makes any sense.

lol how many penn state grads are at The New Yorker? Maybe one? How many Columbia grads are at those kinds of magazines?

ok, so she gets that $35K/year job at The New Yorker, has a $1000 student loan payment to pay, NY rent to pay, etc. You don't see a problem with this?

Good point. Student loans actually need to be, you know, repaid. Exactly how is a student supposed to take a job in journalism, art, publishing, etc. in a high COL city if he or she has a high three or low four figure loan payment to make every month?

Think with your heads, people.

Think with yours. The OP said the PARENTS would be taking on the loans, not the student.

Well then the parents need to repay them. Will that hurt their ability to save for retirement? Will it mean retirement has to be delayed for a long time? My DH will be ready to retire when our youngest finishes college. Repaying loans does not work with that plan. Also, can they do the same for other kids in the family? Taking out exorbitant loans for one child's education and then not doing that for the rest of the kids is setting up for a lot of family problems.

We've told our kids we can cover the cost of in-state public universities. In reality, I'd probably be willing to stretch another $10K over that IF (big IF) a more expensive big brand name school would provide a real advantage for them pursuing a particular goal. But not $40K extra per year. This assume they have a particular passion that this one school can help them achieve. Otherwise, based on the many people I have worked with and been friends with over my life, I just don't see that the brand name schools offer some amazing advantage over state universities for undergrad. I do think it matters in a lot of fields for grad school so the calculus changes there, but, again, at that point the student should have a particular goal and know how that school will help them achieve it. I'm not going to delay our retirement for years just so my child can go to Columbia to explore and figure out her interests.

selfish

balanced

Many people (including me) believe we owe our kids a college education. Many such people (including me) also believe that "college education" does not mean, "the most expensive school DC can get into."

That's why you shoudl be saving ahead of time! The rule of thumb for middle class families is 1/3 savings, 1/3 cash flow, and 1/3 loans. Come on, anyone can do 1/3 savings for a 70k a year school. You have 18 years. You can't save up ~ 100k in that time?

You realize that 1/3 savings needs to include retirement too? And saving for emergencies, major purchases, etc. And childcare is an exorbitant expense? Most families I know didn't start seriously saving for college until after the daycare bill started.

But, sure, lets say parents decide they want to cover a college that costs $70K at the time they start saving and they start saving when Jr. is a baby. Assuming college costs don't rise faster than the returns on their investments (not always a safe assumption), a basic college savings calculator says they'll need to put aside about $1300 per month for one child. The average family is 2 kids and you don't want to deprive either one so now you are saving $2600 per month or $31,200 per year. And you haven't saved yet for retirement. On a "middle class" income of $100-$150K you'd need to be saving more like half or more to save at that level for college plus a reasonable level of retirement. Must be nice to live in your little bubble where "anyone" has an extra $2600 to stash away each month.

You're determined to be a debbie downer for no reason. People in the 100-150k category wouldn't be asked to pay full boat at a school like Columbia. They'd probably be tasked with paying half.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

1. I don't believe this. "Very successful" people come from all kinds of schools.

But, even if true..

2. This seems to assume that everyone should want to be the kind of "very successful" to which an Ivy league school supposedly provides some magic gate. I'm sure it is shocking to the "Ivy league or bust" folks but success looks different to different people. I know "very successful" teachers, nurses, sales people etc. They love their work, are very good at it, and can support themselves. To me that is what 'very successful' looks like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

1. I don't believe this. "Very successful" people come from all kinds of schools.

But, even if true..

2. This seems to assume that everyone should want to be the kind of "very successful" to which an Ivy league school supposedly provides some magic gate. I'm sure it is shocking to the "Ivy league or bust" folks but success looks different to different people. I know "very successful" teachers, nurses, sales people etc. They love their work, are very good at it, and can support themselves. To me that is what 'very successful' looks like.

I'm sorry but being a nurse is a tough, thankless, poorly paid job. Its not successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

1. I don't believe this. "Very successful" people come from all kinds of schools.

But, even if true..

2. This seems to assume that everyone should want to be the kind of "very successful" to which an Ivy league school supposedly provides some magic gate. I'm sure it is shocking to the "Ivy league or bust" folks but success looks different to different people. I know "very successful" teachers, nurses, sales people etc. They love their work, are very good at it, and can support themselves. To me that is what 'very successful' looks like.

I'm sorry but being a nurse is a tough, thankless, poorly paid job. Its not successful.

Wow. So, by your definition, nurses are "failures"?

Success for you is apparently all about money and status. You can't take it with you. A humble nurse can look back at her (or his) life and know that she did honest work that directly helped countless people. That's something she has over an IB bro or biglaw bigshot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

1. I don't believe this. "Very successful" people come from all kinds of schools.

But, even if true..

2. This seems to assume that everyone should want to be the kind of "very successful" to which an Ivy league school supposedly provides some magic gate. I'm sure it is shocking to the "Ivy league or bust" folks but success looks different to different people. I know "very successful" teachers, nurses, sales people etc. They love their work, are very good at it, and can support themselves. To me that is what 'very successful' looks like.

I'm sorry but being a nurse is a tough, thankless, poorly paid job. Its not successful.

Wow. We'll have to agree to disagree on what makes a person successful at life. I think the NICU nurses who helped us survive those first few weeks are 'successful'. I think my sister who manages nurse training for a hospital is 'successful'.

[Anonymous]

People value their own experience above all else. If parents went to private undergrad, it is likely they wish, if at all possible, to provide the same for their children. Likewise for public undergrad. We do not value the private undergrad experience in the same way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I am really LOLing at all the VA boosters who think UVA is on par with Columbia.

Ask yourself this. If you had the money and the kid got into both schools, which would you recommend? Columbia is the kind of school that comes with a wealth of connections and opens doors to elite society in the Northeast.

UVA can't give you that except maybe in VA.

You have it backwards. People from elite backgrounds and a wealth of connections attend Columbia; they don't socialize with the kids on aid who have campus jobs and can't jet out to Killington every weekend or blow wads of money in NYC.

Well I disagree about but actually those weren't the connections I was referring to anyway. It's when you go to interview for an internship or entry level job and you get to talk to Columbia grads who would rather take a chance on you then on someone from another school. It's human nature.

You DO know that this same thing happens with grads from pretty much every school (when they encounter other alumni in the workforce), right? Obviously it's not in a similar realm academically, but my sister went to penn state and pretty much every career opportunity she's gotten there's been a penn state connection - penn state is a huge school with a proud, enthusiastic alumni base and they're kind of everywhere. Having that commonality is an easy discussion point. I'm not sure your argument makes any sense.

lol how many penn state grads are at The New Yorker? Maybe one? How many Columbia grads are at those kinds of magazines?

ok, so she gets that $35K/year job at The New Yorker, has a $1000 student loan payment to pay, NY rent to pay, etc. You don't see a problem with this?

Good point. Student loans actually need to be, you know, repaid. Exactly how is a student supposed to take a job in journalism, art, publishing, etc. in a high COL city if he or she has a high three or low four figure loan payment to make every month?

Think with your heads, people.

Think with yours. The OP said the PARENTS would be taking on the loans, not the student.

Well then the parents need to repay them. Will that hurt their ability to save for retirement? Will it mean retirement has to be delayed for a long time? My DH will be ready to retire when our youngest finishes college. Repaying loans does not work with that plan. Also, can they do the same for other kids in the family? Taking out exorbitant loans for one child's education and then not doing that for the rest of the kids is setting up for a lot of family problems.

We've told our kids we can cover the cost of in-state public universities. In reality, I'd probably be willing to stretch another $10K over that IF (big IF) a more expensive big brand name school would provide a real advantage for them pursuing a particular goal. But not $40K extra per year. This assume they have a particular passion that this one school can help them achieve. Otherwise, based on the many people I have worked with and been friends with over my life, I just don't see that the brand name schools offer some amazing advantage over state universities for undergrad. I do think it matters in a lot of fields for grad school so the calculus changes there, but, again, at that point the student should have a particular goal and know how that school will help them achieve it. I'm not going to delay our retirement for years just so my child can go to Columbia to explore and figure out her interests.

selfish

balanced

Many people (including me) believe we owe our kids a college education. Many such people (including me) also believe that "college education" does not mean, "the most expensive school DC can get into."

That's why you shoudl be saving ahead of time! The rule of thumb for middle class families is 1/3 savings, 1/3 cash flow, and 1/3 loans. Come on, anyone can do 1/3 savings for a 70k a year school. You have 18 years. You can't save up ~ 100k in that time?

You realize that 1/3 savings needs to include retirement too? And saving for emergencies, major purchases, etc. And childcare is an exorbitant expense? Most families I know didn't start seriously saving for college until after the daycare bill started.

But, sure, lets say parents decide they want to cover a college that costs $70K at the time they start saving and they start saving when Jr. is a baby. Assuming college costs don't rise faster than the returns on their investments (not always a safe assumption), a basic college savings calculator says they'll need to put aside about $1300 per month for one child. The average family is 2 kids and you don't want to deprive either one so now you are saving $2600 per month or $31,200 per year. And you haven't saved yet for retirement. On a "middle class" income of $100-$150K you'd need to be saving more like half or more to save at that level for college plus a reasonable level of retirement. Must be nice to live in your little bubble where "anyone" has an extra $2600 to stash away each month.

You're determined to be a debbie downer for no reason. People in the 100-150k category wouldn't be asked to pay full boat at a school like Columbia. They'd probably be tasked with paying half.

OP here. Actually, I'm pretty sure my friend's family makes less than $200,00 and they were not offered any aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People value their own experience above all else. If parents went to private undergrad, it is likely they wish, if at all possible, to provide the same for their children. Likewise for public undergrad. We do not value the private undergrad experience in the same way.

This. Plus, those who either sacrificed themselves to pay huge loans or saw their parents sacrifice to do it for them, desperately need to believe that it was worth it. That they could not possibly get where they are now with out that brand name.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

1. I don't believe this. "Very successful" people come from all kinds of schools.

But, even if true..

2. This seems to assume that everyone should want to be the kind of "very successful" to which an Ivy league school supposedly provides some magic gate. I'm sure it is shocking to the "Ivy league or bust" folks but success looks different to different people. I know "very successful" teachers, nurses, sales people etc. They love their work, are very good at it, and can support themselves. To me that is what 'very successful' looks like.

I'm sorry but being a nurse is a tough, thankless, poorly paid job. Its not successful.

Some seriously messed up people post here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

That's all well and good but OPs kid won't be hanging out with them; as already mentioned, she'll be busy with work-study, and wont have the cash to prowl the very expensive city like her UMC and upper class classmates. The networking value will be very limited; the Ivy league does not work that way, the rich hang with the rich, and the poor with the poor. Only people who really crossed those boundaries were very attractive women (going from poor to rich).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Columbia you're going to become friends with peers who will become very successful. At UVA you're going to meet a bunch of future SAHM, nurses, teachers, salesman, lawyers. Different levels.

That's all well and good but OPs kid won't be hanging out with them; as already mentioned, she'll be busy with work-study, and wont have the cash to prowl the very expensive city like her UMC and upper class classmates. The networking value will be very limited; the Ivy league does not work that way, the rich hang with the rich, and the poor with the poor. Only people who really crossed those boundaries were very attractive women (going from poor to rich).

This is an important, and often overlooked point when people start shaming middle class parents for not spending $200k+ to send junior to Elite U, when they can go to a school one tier below almost for free.