CMI vs YY for PK3?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After all this I think OP has probably fully embraced CMI.

Doubt it, she sounds like the sort of parent who wants YY for the warm and diverse community, safe environment etc. A little cultural "exposure" and Mandarin is peachy, too. Why worry that the benefits of immersion study for kids don't kick in unless it's dual immersion and lasts at least 10 years? The research is out there.

Maybe a 1/4 of the YY families are willing and able to put out, and pay up, for decent conversational Mandarin. These are the families that will have Chinese-speaking 20-somethings.

It is what it is and won't change unless the school hires a native speaking principal (like any serious Chinese immersion program anywhere!).

I've heard a lot of things about YY from families there, and "warm community" is not one of them.

I am an actual YY parent, and I find the other parents to be very friendly and the kids are great. With 500+ kids, I'm sure there are lots of different experiences.

Another YY parent with a kid going into 4th grade and we love it here. The community is great with a sense of community and very diverse. No one is forced to stay, you know. The retention rate speaks for itself and the lottery waitlist a mile long.

Personally, we could care less about getting a "native speaking principal" - We like Maquita, our principal, just fine.

So face it. Yu Ying isn't going to cater to the peanut gallery even if they are native speakers.

So you like the principal. The Chinese teachers, not so much. They make snide remarks about her in their dialects within earshot of school community members. They use choice nicknames for her and the other admins. They point out that the diversity doesn't help the kids speak Chinese, and poke fun at wimpy US ES education, then smile and say the opposite to parents in English. The Cantonese speakers seek out Cantonese-speaking parents (all three of them) to ask many awkward questions, mostly about US education.

This is the different experience you have at YY when the dialect subtext is clear. My main take-away from YY was an appreciation for straight up communication and community openness at both our JKLM and heritage school. Good luck to the YY families.

Oh, my God. You sound like a crazy person who is obsessed with a school that your children don't even attend. Let it go.

[Anonymous]

I hate now insight evokes name-calling on DCUM.

YY teachers form competing factions, often Sinitic language based (e.g. Hokkien speakers vs. Yue). The camps compete to challenge admins. Current admins can't do much to crack down, other than push teachers out (still happens a lot).

If anybody at YY wants to learn more about relationships between Chinese dialects/toposelect regional speech, and where the "court Mandarin" YY teaches fits into the picture, there's a lot of user friendly info on www.quora.com . It's sort of a Q & A Wikipedia, mostly used outside the US.

[Anonymous]

What 8:58 posts is accurate from my observations. But the fact is that tensions and workplace tribalism exists everywhere unless you actively create a culture to dismantle it. I love YY for my kids, but there is a lot of work to be done to take down the problems. It has been going on since the school opened and until there is a leader who can understand and address this it will continue, as will the revolving door.

[Anonymous]

Completely agree. Parents who love the principal don't get that not having native speaking leadership creates big headaches in managing a team of Mainland teachers. It's not that she's a bad principal--she's a very good one by DC charter standards--it's that the Chinese teachers don't respect her leadership. They gang up on her because she doesn't know what they're saying when they don't speak English, and doesn't know the culture well (never having lived, worked or traveled extensively in China, Taiwan or HK). She also doesn't seem to understand, or particularly care, that many of the kids can't really communicate in Mandarin, even by the upper grades, presumably because she speaks Chinese so poorly.

For DCI to work well for the Mandarin track families, they're going to need a strong, decisive ABC admin, but without one at YY, I can't imagine DCI hiring one. Too bad because there are many strong candidates out there, particularly in NYC, CA, Toronto and Vancouver.

[Anonymous]

This is something that has always needed to be fixed. Perhaps as the principal develops more confidence she will one day hire someone who is capable of reigning in the problems that exist. Perhaps she will also get rid of the one lead Chinese employee who foments the the negative feelings that exist in the Chinese staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'd enroll at CMI without looking back. YY WL is very unlikely to move four spots and the school isn't all it's cracked up to be. The kids Chinese conversational skills are weak, unless families host aupairs. Few parents know it. Most of the kids speak a strange robotic formal sounding Mandarin with flat tones. You can't discuss YY pros and cons here without being told to shut up and go away because you are a "heritage parent" or "troll." I'm a white Mandarin speaker. We are not returning to YY, moving on to WIS.

I have no need to call you any names. I do however have an entirely different experience of native Mandarin-speakers' reactions to my rising 3rd grade child's Chinese. Over and over again I hear how well she speaks and how good her tones are. A few people I know better than just passing by and have asked them to be brutally honest. They say they mean what they say, for the amount of time my child has been at YY (only 4 yrs so far, 1 immersion year and 3 50/50) she's doing exceptionally well.

You are entitled to your opinion, but clearly my actual experience means more to me in terms of judging my child's progress than your post on an anonymous message board (and you're free to feel the same way about my post).

For anyone really interested, go to the school yourself. If you don't speak Mandarin yourself, find a way to get feedback from a native Mandarin-speaker that you trust on what they hear when they go to a YY open house or presentation.

Lastly, I only know a few parents who have Chinese au pairs or tutors. Most so far do not, and of the parents whose kids have moved on to DCI, few of them used tutors or au pairs in the later grades. Also something to ask YY parents who might attend open houses or stand at the YY table at EdFest. (OP I know that doesn't apply to you since you need to make a decision fast. But you can definitely go to the school more though and ask questions.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hate now insight evokes name-calling on DCUM.

YY teachers form competing factions, often Sinitic language based (e.g. Hokkien speakers vs. Yue). The camps compete to challenge admins. Current admins can't do much to crack down, other than push teachers out (still happens a lot).

If anybody at YY wants to learn more about relationships between Chinese dialects/toposelect regional speech, and where the "court Mandarin" YY teaches fits into the picture, there's a lot of user friendly info on www.quora.com . It's sort of a Q & A Wikipedia, mostly used outside the US.

You are spewing a lot of made up stuff - where is your evidence that teachers are pushed out or that there is even any major amount of teacher turnover? As a real parent there, other than teachers having babies or moving to other cities I've hardly seen any teachers leave for any reason.

It's highly irresponsible to spread negative things like that that a) aren't true and b) you have offered no back up for. Where is your evidence of teachers leaving in any significant numbers or that they're pushed out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Completely agree. Parents who love the principal don't get that not having native speaking leadership creates big headaches in managing a team of Mainland teachers. It's not that she's a bad principal--she's a very good one by DC charter standards--it's that the Chinese teachers don't respect her leadership. They gang up on her because she doesn't know what they're saying when they don't speak English, and doesn't know the culture well (never having lived, worked or traveled extensively in China, Taiwan or HK). She also doesn't seem to understand, or particularly care, that many of the kids can't really communicate in Mandarin, even by the upper grades, presumably because she speaks Chinese so poorly.

For DCI to work well for the Mandarin track families, they're going to need a strong, decisive ABC admin, but without one at YY, I can't imagine DCI hiring one. Too bad because there are many strong candidates out there, particularly in NYC, CA, Toronto and Vancouver.

And yet you cannot and have not illustrated how all of this supposed disrespect and disconnect leads to negative outcomes for kids. The teachers aren't leaving in any major numbers, and the kids are getting a good education. So even though I've seen no evidence of the disconnect you speak of, unless you are going to point out concrete ways it allegedly has a negative impact on learning and the whole school experience for students, to be honest, who really cares? If the teachers aren't a revolving door and the education and school environment is really good, who cares about what you're talking about?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want it to change, but don't see this happening. The small bilingual professional community won't take on the YY parents, DCPC or DCPS. We don't want the hard work of educating DC parents, ed reformers and pols about the benefits of dual-immersion, an awkward conversation in a politically loaded environment. Nobody wants the stress or the name calling, not when most of us have access to high-performing DCPS schools. The Chinatown community won't help either - they're just trying to get through the day, with kids at struggling Thompson ES.

Chinese Americans have used their heritage schools to ensure that their kids know their culture and language for generations (e.g. the NYC Chinese Benevolent Society, a giant historic building in Chinatown which served as my dirt cheap summer camp). Chinese do this wherever there are ethnic urban communities, and have only started looking to Mandarin immersion ES programs for help in the last decade.

The vibe get at the school when you visit YY and speak Chinese to your kids (not to show off, but because you don't speak English to them) is the unfair competition vibe. It's very different when you meet friendly YY families who are serious about their kids learning Chinese outside the school. You start sharing notes on software programs, web sites, summer camps and so forth. It's all good.

By and large, YY parents (at least those already in!) would love to see preference for native speakers. It's the general community of middle-class DC parents who DON'T want it to change -- because that would lead to fewer spots for their kids.

You are wrong. Within the school, there are significant numbers of parents on both sides of this discussion. There are a lot of educators whose kids attend YY who understand WHY the rules about no language preference are what they are. We ALL would like more native speaking kids in all grades, but some of us see the benefit of a truly random lottery as greater than the benefit from offering language preference. It is not at all a majority who wants preference, though if there was a way to get both equity and more native speakers, that would be awesome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Heritage parents" is a DCUM thing, not a YY thing. I'm a YY parent and I've never heard the term used there. There was someone posting on here and another poster termed that person "Heritage mom". Just like other DCUM traditions like calling a kid "Larla." It doesn't really go beyond DCUM.

I hear the term used around YY. Maybe it's entered into common parlance with DCUM as the springboard.

Really? I'm not the PP you're responding to but I've been there for 5 years and never ever heard the term used, anywhere. Not in classrooms, in hallways, on the playground, at pick up, or at birthday parties/social events. Never.

[Anonymous]

Any of you fellow native speakers raising fully bilingual children? Let me guess, you're not, but no matter. You know just how wonderful your kids' Chinese is, despite the so-so one-way immersion instruction they receive. Your claims that Chinese teachers don't leave or form factions don't hold up.

By my standards, maybe 10% of the YY kids speak well by 3rd grade. That's it. The strongest speakers have been leaving before DCI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any of you fellow native speakers raising fully bilingual children? Let me guess, you're not, but no matter. You know just how wonderful your kids' Chinese is, despite the so-so one-way immersion instruction they receive. Your claims that Chinese teachers don't leave or form factions don't hold up.

By my standards, maybe 10% of the YY kids speak well by 3rd grade. That's it. The strongest speakers have been leaving before DCI.

You sound bitter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want it to change, but don't see this happening. The small bilingual professional community won't take on the YY parents, DCPC or DCPS. We don't want the hard work of educating DC parents, ed reformers and pols about the benefits of dual-immersion, an awkward conversation in a politically loaded environment. Nobody wants the stress or the name calling, not when most of us have access to high-performing DCPS schools. The Chinatown community won't help either - they're just trying to get through the day, with kids at struggling Thompson ES.

Chinese Americans have used their heritage schools to ensure that their kids know their culture and language for generations (e.g. the NYC Chinese Benevolent Society, a giant historic building in Chinatown which served as my dirt cheap summer camp). Chinese do this wherever there are ethnic urban communities, and have only started looking to Mandarin immersion ES programs for help in the last decade.

The vibe get at the school when you visit YY and speak Chinese to your kids (not to show off, but because you don't speak English to them) is the unfair competition vibe. It's very different when you meet friendly YY families who are serious about their kids learning Chinese outside the school. You start sharing notes on software programs, web sites, summer camps and so forth. It's all good.

By and large, YY parents (at least those already in!) would love to see preference for native speakers. It's the general community of middle-class DC parents who DON'T want it to change -- because that would lead to fewer spots for their kids.

You are wrong. Within the school, there are significant numbers of parents on both sides of this discussion. There are a lot of educators whose kids attend YY who understand WHY the rules about no language preference are what they are. We ALL would like more native speaking kids in all grades, but some of us see the benefit of a truly random lottery as greater than the benefit from offering language preference. It is not at all a majority who wants preference, though if there was a way to get both equity and more native speakers, that would be awesome.

Fantastic. So, what, exactly, is a native-speaking kid to YY, and how many do you have now? I asked several pages ago and nobody answered, because nobody can. The school community has never tried to define what a native-speaking kid is. Even so, ALL the parents want them in "all grades." Gosh.

The school doesn't know what to do with bilingual Chinese-speaking kids; it isn't set up to educate them. You want that to change under the current administration, or you want something else?

[Anonymous]

TLDR.

Lucky for you if you get the choice. I would pick Yu Ying, but your choices look good either way.

[Anonymous]

By and large, YY parents (at least those already in!) would love to see preference for native speakers. It's the general community of middle-class DC parents who DON'T want it to change -- because that would lead to fewer spots for their kids.

You are wrong. Within the school, there are significant numbers of parents on both sides of this discussion. There are a lot of educators whose kids attend YY who understand WHY the rules about no language preference are what they are. We ALL would like more native speaking kids in all grades, but some of us see the benefit of a truly random lottery as greater than the benefit from offering language preference. It is not at all a majority who wants preference, though if there was a way to get both equity and more native speakers, that would be awesome.

Right, both sides of this discussion. Problem is, the views of parents on admissions policies are irrelevant in DCPC. Parents have no say on preference for native speakers at immersion charters. YY parents could lobby for that to change, but haven't (understandably, who wants to make oneself unpopular, or beat one's head against a wall). YY parents will be able to influence the choice of the next principal, but that's it.

As things stand at YY, you either fork out to host Chinese au pairs for years, you're a native speaker who consistently speaks Chinese to your children (and requires them to answer in it), you have a fantastically verbal child who picks the language up well even if you don't supplement, or your YY student doesn't speak very good Chinese. The trick is not to mind.