Where is your crucifix hung in your home? And other religious pieces?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, statues in catholic churches were a big issue during the reformation. They were seen as graven images then, at odds with true christianity, and I've heard modern-day protestants refer to them that way.

Just because "modern-day protestants" refer to something a certain way doesn't make it right. There are plenty of protestants that have a bizarre viewpoint. EVERYTHING was a big issue during the reformation. That was not exactly the golden age of tolerance for Christianity. If you are going to choose to take that one verse literally, be prepared to be challenged on why you are not taking the entire old testament literally.

What's this about not taking an admonition not to do something literally? Some of the other commandments are "do not steal," "do not commit adultery," "do not covet," etc. Are those not to be taken literally, too? Although the Bible teaches that you aren't saved by following the Ten Commandments, but rather through faith in Christ, the Ten Commandments are pretty straightforward reading. Some other passages use rhetorical devices to state a truth. The Bible is a long book, and it's meant to be studied. When Jesus says, "This is my body" while he's handing out unleavened bread, it's pretty clear he's not cutting chunks of flesh out of Himself, but it's also true that we're to wholly partake of Christ, the same way that food becomes a part of us. Christ called Himself the Bread of Life. That doesn't mean He's literally bread, and it's ridiculous to argue that He must mean that because earlier He said straight-up not to do something. But He IS saying He is as essential to us as food. And just because he used a metaphor to make that point, that doesn't mean we take a more straightforward command -- "Love your neighbor as yourself" -- metaphorically, also. We don't read other books and writings without an understanding of different rhetorical devices, so why would we read the Bible that way? If you read it with an open mind -- and especially an open heart -- it starts to get clearer what things are stated factually and what things are illustrating a point. But what's evident is that miracles are always stated factually. They're hard to believe, but that's the essence of a miracle, and it shows that God stands outside His creation and has control over it. Jesus used metaphors and similes. Why is that so hard to grasp? We all do that every day. It doesn't negate the things that the Bible records as fact, and it doesn't require us to have a wooden reading of the Bible so that it's all one way or all the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, statues in catholic churches were a big issue during the reformation. They were seen as graven images then, at odds with true christianity, and I've heard modern-day protestants refer to them that way.

Just because "modern-day protestants" refer to something a certain way doesn't make it right. There are plenty of protestants that have a bizarre viewpoint. EVERYTHING was a big issue during the reformation. That was not exactly the golden age of tolerance for Christianity. If you are going to choose to take that one verse literally, be prepared to be challenged on why you are not taking the entire old testament literally.

What's this about not taking an admonition not to do something literally? Some of the other commandments are "do not steal," "do not commit adultery," "do not covet," etc. Are those not to be taken literally, too? Although the Bible teaches that you aren't saved by following the Ten Commandments, but rather through faith in Christ, the Ten Commandments are pretty straightforward reading. Some other passages use rhetorical devices to state a truth. The Bible is a long book, and it's meant to be studied. When Jesus says, "This is my body" while he's handing out unleavened bread, it's pretty clear he's not cutting chunks of flesh out of Himself, but it's also true that we're to wholly partake of Christ, the same way that food becomes a part of us. Christ called Himself the Bread of Life. That doesn't mean He's literally bread, and it's ridiculous to argue that He must mean that because earlier He said straight-up not to do something. But He IS saying He is as essential to us as food. And just because he used a metaphor to make that point, that doesn't mean we take a more straightforward command -- "Love your neighbor as yourself" -- metaphorically, also. We don't read other books and writings without an understanding of different rhetorical devices, so why would we read the Bible that way? If you read it with an open mind -- and especially an open heart -- it starts to get clearer what things are stated factually and what things are illustrating a point. But what's evident is that miracles are always stated factually. They're hard to believe, but that's the essence of a miracle, and it shows that God stands outside His creation and has control over it. Jesus used metaphors and similes. Why is that so hard to grasp? We all do that every day. It doesn't negate the things that the Bible records as fact, and it doesn't require us to have a wooden reading of the Bible so that it's all one way or all the other.

This is the commandment:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

It is clear that this commandment is about WORSHIPPING IDOLS. However, if you are going to read the initial clause (you shall not make for yourself a carved image- any LIKENESS of anything...) as controlling, than stained glass windows (which are likenesses) would also be forbidden. Basically any Christian art of the last 2000 years, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, would be forbidden.

[Anonymous]

Fine by me of the Protestants eschew statues as graven images. But give me Michelangelo's Pieta any day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fine by me of the Protestants eschew statues as graven images. But give me Michelangelo's Pieta any day.

+1. Signed, a Protestant. Also, I'm glad the beautiful mosaics (various Saints' faces) in Hagia Sophia have been uncovered.

Not all of us eschew graven images. We don't do stations of the cross (or at least not the Protestant denominations I know). Many Protestant churches do have crucifixes at the front.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, statues in catholic churches were a big issue during the reformation. They were seen as graven images then, at odds with true christianity, and I've heard modern-day protestants refer to them that way.

Just because "modern-day protestants" refer to something a certain way doesn't make it right. There are plenty of protestants that have a bizarre viewpoint. EVERYTHING was a big issue during the reformation. That was not exactly the golden age of tolerance for Christianity. If you are going to choose to take that one verse literally, be prepared to be challenged on why you are not taking the entire old testament literally.

What's this about not taking an admonition not to do something literally? Some of the other commandments are "do not steal," "do not commit adultery," "do not covet," etc. Are those not to be taken literally, too? Although the Bible teaches that you aren't saved by following the Ten Commandments, but rather through faith in Christ, the Ten Commandments are pretty straightforward reading. Some other passages use rhetorical devices to state a truth. The Bible is a long book, and it's meant to be studied. When Jesus says, "This is my body" while he's handing out unleavened bread, it's pretty clear he's not cutting chunks of flesh out of Himself, but it's also true that we're to wholly partake of Christ, the same way that food becomes a part of us. Christ called Himself the Bread of Life. That doesn't mean He's literally bread, and it's ridiculous to argue that He must mean that because earlier He said straight-up not to do something. But He IS saying He is as essential to us as food. And just because he used a metaphor to make that point, that doesn't mean we take a more straightforward command -- "Love your neighbor as yourself" -- metaphorically, also. We don't read other books and writings without an understanding of different rhetorical devices, so why would we read the Bible that way? If you read it with an open mind -- and especially an open heart -- it starts to get clearer what things are stated factually and what things are illustrating a point. But what's evident is that miracles are always stated factually. They're hard to believe, but that's the essence of a miracle, and it shows that God stands outside His creation and has control over it. Jesus used metaphors and similes. Why is that so hard to grasp? We all do that every day. It doesn't negate the things that the Bible records as fact, and it doesn't require us to have a wooden reading of the Bible so that it's all one way or all the other.

This is the commandment:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

It is clear that this commandment is about WORSHIPPING IDOLS. However, if you are going to read the initial clause (you shall not make for yourself a carved image- any LIKENESS of anything...) as controlling, than stained glass windows (which are likenesses) would also be forbidden. Basically any Christian art of the last 2000 years, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, would be forbidden.

I do understand your point, but I think that any image that we craft to which we attach religious significance has the potential to take our attention away from Christ and put our trust elsewhere. There are many aspects of worshipping God, and it doesn't just mean to bow to Him. Obeying God and praying to God is also worship; it's a recognition of His holiness and his greatness beyond ourselves. So I do think that a statue of Mary or a saint is problematic, because as far as I understand from every Catholic I've talked with about this, Catholics say they don't "worship" them but they do address them in prayer to intercede for them. But the Bible says there is "one mediator between God and man," and that is Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). So therein is the problem. Paul wrote that if food is offered to an idol, does that make the idol anything? No, he says. But the idol is not God, and the source of idols is demonic. So that food (or time, money, prayers, anything else) offered to idols is offered to demons (1 Corinthians 8). I'm not saying saints are demons. But I am saying that the reason God commanded the Israelites not to make graven images is because He knew that their attention would be drawn to them and away from Himself. God's commandments are not onerous. They are to protect us and help us love Him. God is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). We do not need images of God to worship Him, and we definitely don't need images of dead humans to help us ask them to intercede for us. Will you go to Hell if you do so? Not if you trust Christ as your savior and not your own efforts. Every Christian still sins, though he doest want to. But statuary and addressing saints is unnecessary at best and possibly a sin. And at worst, they can take the place of God and the sufficiency of Christ, and then, yes, you're in peril.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, statues in catholic churches were a big issue during the reformation. They were seen as graven images then, at odds with true christianity, and I've heard modern-day protestants refer to them that way.

Just because "modern-day protestants" refer to something a certain way doesn't make it right. There are plenty of protestants that have a bizarre viewpoint. EVERYTHING was a big issue during the reformation. That was not exactly the golden age of tolerance for Christianity. If you are going to choose to take that one verse literally, be prepared to be challenged on why you are not taking the entire old testament literally.

What's this about not taking an admonition not to do something literally? Some of the other commandments are "do not steal," "do not commit adultery," "do not covet," etc. Are those not to be taken literally, too? Although the Bible teaches that you aren't saved by following the Ten Commandments, but rather through faith in Christ, the Ten Commandments are pretty straightforward reading. Some other passages use rhetorical devices to state a truth. The Bible is a long book, and it's meant to be studied. When Jesus says, "This is my body" while he's handing out unleavened bread, it's pretty clear he's not cutting chunks of flesh out of Himself, but it's also true that we're to wholly partake of Christ, the same way that food becomes a part of us. Christ called Himself the Bread of Life. That doesn't mean He's literally bread, and it's ridiculous to argue that He must mean that because earlier He said straight-up not to do something. But He IS saying He is as essential to us as food. And just because he used a metaphor to make that point, that doesn't mean we take a more straightforward command -- "Love your neighbor as yourself" -- metaphorically, also. We don't read other books and writings without an understanding of different rhetorical devices, so why would we read the Bible that way? If you read it with an open mind -- and especially an open heart -- it starts to get clearer what things are stated factually and what things are illustrating a point. But what's evident is that miracles are always stated factually. They're hard to believe, but that's the essence of a miracle, and it shows that God stands outside His creation and has control over it. Jesus used metaphors and similes. Why is that so hard to grasp? We all do that every day. It doesn't negate the things that the Bible records as fact, and it doesn't require us to have a wooden reading of the Bible so that it's all one way or all the other.

This is the commandment:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

It is clear that this commandment is about WORSHIPPING IDOLS. However, if you are going to read the initial clause (you shall not make for yourself a carved image- any LIKENESS of anything...) as controlling, than stained glass windows (which are likenesses) would also be forbidden. Basically any Christian art of the last 2000 years, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, would be forbidden.

I do understand your point, but I think that any image that we craft to which we attach religious significance has the potential to take our attention away from Christ and put our trust elsewhere. There are many aspects of worshipping God, and it doesn't just mean to bow to Him. Obeying God and praying to God is also worship; it's a recognition of His holiness and his greatness beyond ourselves. So I do think that a statue of Mary or a saint is problematic, because as far as I understand from every Catholic I've talked with about this, Catholics say they don't "worship" them but they do address them in prayer to intercede for them. But the Bible says there is "one mediator between God and man," and that is Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). So therein is the problem. Paul wrote that if food is offered to an idol, does that make the idol anything? No, he says. But the idol is not God, and the source of idols is demonic. So that food (or time, money, prayers, anything else) offered to idols is offered to demons (1 Corinthians 8). I'm not saying saints are demons. But I am saying that the reason God commanded the Israelites not to make graven images is because He knew that their attention would be drawn to them and away from Himself. God's commandments are not onerous. They are to protect us and help us love Him. God is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). We do not need images of God to worship Him, and we definitely don't need images of dead humans to help us ask them to intercede for us. Will you go to Hell if you do so? Not if you trust Christ as your savior and not your own efforts. Every Christian still sins, though he doest want to. But statuary and addressing saints is unnecessary at best and possibly a sin. And at worst, they can take the place of God and the sufficiency of Christ, and then, yes, you're in peril.

DOn't worry about how this will affect other people -- many of them do not hold the same beliefs as you do and they are doing just fine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I do understand your point, but I think that any image that we craft to which we attach religious significance has the potential to take our attention away from Christ and put our trust elsewhere. There are many aspects of worshipping God, and it doesn't just mean to bow to Him. Obeying God and praying to God is also worship; it's a recognition of His holiness and his greatness beyond ourselves. So I do think that a statue of Mary or a saint is problematic, because as far as I understand from every Catholic I've talked with about this, Catholics say they don't "worship" them but they do address them in prayer to intercede for them. But the Bible says there is "one mediator between God and man," and that is Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). So therein is the problem. Paul wrote that if food is offered to an idol, does that make the idol anything? No, he says. But the idol is not God, and the source of idols is demonic. So that food (or time, money, prayers, anything else) offered to idols is offered to demons (1 Corinthians 8). I'm not saying saints are demons. But I am saying that the reason God commanded the Israelites not to make graven images is because He knew that their attention would be drawn to them and away from Himself. God's commandments are not onerous. They are to protect us and help us love Him. God is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). We do not need images of God to worship Him, and we definitely don't need images of dead humans to help us ask them to intercede for us. Will you go to Hell if you do so? Not if you trust Christ as your savior and not your own efforts. Every Christian still sins, though he doest want to. But statuary and addressing saints is unnecessary at best and possibly a sin. And at worst, they can take the place of God and the sufficiency of Christ, and then, yes, you're in peril.

Your problem is not with statues or other art but with intercession of saints. I am not sure what the connection is between that and religious art. I am not Catholic so I do not have an authoritative understanding of the Catholic concept of saints. I am Eastern Orthodox and I can't quote the semantics or the "official" theology in the Orthodox church off the top of my head, but my understanding is that asking for intercession from a saint is similar to asking a friend "will you pray for me?" I really don't think about it any more deeply than that. I don't think about the Christian iconography in my home very deeply either. It is similar to me to the pictures of my children in my home, that is, a reminder of the people I love, and beautiful art to boot. Again, I am not authoritative about Catholic teachings but I don't think Catholics are committing idolatry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I do understand your point, but I think that any image that we craft to which we attach religious significance has the potential to take our attention away from Christ and put our trust elsewhere. There are many aspects of worshipping God, and it doesn't just mean to bow to Him. Obeying God and praying to God is also worship; it's a recognition of His holiness and his greatness beyond ourselves. So I do think that a statue of Mary or a saint is problematic, because as far as I understand from every Catholic I've talked with about this, Catholics say they don't "worship" them but they do address them in prayer to intercede for them. But the Bible says there is "one mediator between God and man," and that is Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). So therein is the problem. Paul wrote that if food is offered to an idol, does that make the idol anything? No, he says. But the idol is not God, and the source of idols is demonic. So that food (or time, money, prayers, anything else) offered to idols is offered to demons (1 Corinthians 8). I'm not saying saints are demons. But I am saying that the reason God commanded the Israelites not to make graven images is because He knew that their attention would be drawn to them and away from Himself. God's commandments are not onerous. They are to protect us and help us love Him. God is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). We do not need images of God to worship Him, and we definitely don't need images of dead humans to help us ask them to intercede for us. Will you go to Hell if you do so? Not if you trust Christ as your savior and not your own efforts. Every Christian still sins, though he doest want to. But statuary and addressing saints is unnecessary at best and possibly a sin. And at worst, they can take the place of God and the sufficiency of Christ, and then, yes, you're in peril.

Your problem is not with statues or other art but with intercession of saints. I am not sure what the connection is between that and religious art. I am not Catholic so I do not have an authoritative understanding of the Catholic concept of saints. I am Eastern Orthodox and I can't quote the semantics or the "official" theology in the Orthodox church off the top of my head, but my understanding is that asking for intercession from a saint is similar to asking a friend "will you pray for me?" I really don't think about it any more deeply than that. I don't think about the Christian iconography in my home very deeply either. It is similar to me to the pictures of my children in my home, that is, a reminder of the people I love, and beautiful art to boot. Again, I am not authoritative about Catholic teachings but I don't think Catholics are committing idolatry.

This! The images in our house are a reminder. Certainly nobody is bowing down before them.