Can we stop referring to households making $200 or 300K a year as "middle class"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the PP asking about my cite re: affordable housing. The answer is Fairfax County.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/rha/rentalhousingprograms/fcrp.htm

Check out the second column. A household of 4 with an income of $85,850 is considered to be earning 80% of the area's median income and qualifies for affordable rental units.

I think this is the problem with trying to put a dollar number on middle class. A single person making 85k is much better off than a family of 4 living off 85k. To me, the idea of middle class is being able to afford at least a 3 bedroom SFH in a decent school district with a less than 30-45 min commute. The ability to save for college, take a vacation every other year or so, have some savings, go out to eat for special occasions, etc. The problem is that the "middle class lifestyle" no longer matches up with the actual "middle class income." Watch the documentary "Inequality for All." Very eye opening.

Or TH, doesn't necessarily have to be SFH. But in general, the image most of us picture as "middle class" is becoming attainable only for those who fall into the upper tiers of earning. The very wealthy want us to bicker about the fact that someone making 300k is doing so much better than us, but really it isn't the 300k households that are the problem. These families are doing better than us, but they aren't rich. If anything, these households are spending $$ on nannies, restaurants, travel, etc. that keep a lot of people employed. And many are one job loss away from losing a lot of what they have.

It's the very affluent who invest their money overseas that are hurting us all. Even the richest man on earth only buys so much furniture, can eat out so many times, etc. When they very rich end up with more than they can ever spend, it skews the middle class downward. We need more consumer spending and for people with actual middle class incomes to have the purchasing power that those in the upper middle class have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The very wealthy want us to bicker about the fact that someone making 300k is doing so much better than us, but really it isn't the 300k households that are the problem. These families are doing better than us, but they aren't rich. If anything, these households are spending $$ on nannies, restaurants, travel, etc. that keep a lot of people employed. And many are one job loss away from losing a lot of what they have.

Maybe not, but they sure do make it easy when they complain about after the mortgage payments in Chevy Chase, Mercedes lease payments, cost of a live-in nanny and cost of private school tuition, "300,000 a year doesn't get you very far."

[Anonymous]

DC is a very expensive city. Your paycheck does not go as far here. There are people making 200,000 that live all over this country and have a much better quality of life and would not refer to themselves as middle class but they would agree that the cost of college is outrageous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The very wealthy want us to bicker about the fact that someone making 300k is doing so much better than us, but really it isn't the 300k households that are the problem. These families are doing better than us, but they aren't rich. If anything, these households are spending $$ on nannies, restaurants, travel, etc. that keep a lot of people employed. And many are one job loss away from losing a lot of what they have.

Maybe not, but they sure do make it easy when they complain about after the mortgage payments in Chevy Chase, Mercedes lease payments, cost of a live-in nanny and cost of private school tuition, "300,000 a year doesn't get you very far."

I agree I find some of those posters annoying. But I have a HHI of 180k soon to be 200k and feel very middle class (lifestyle wise even though I know we have an above avg HHI) with student loans and daycare costs. I think a 300k HHI would provide a lot more breathing room and would be more of an upper middle class lifestyle than middle class. I can understand how some people feel that 300k just doesn't go as far in this area as you might dream 300k would go. Granted I do wish they'd stop complaining on here, it's aggravating to hear someone with much more than you complain about how little they have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The very wealthy want us to bicker about the fact that someone making 300k is doing so much better than us, but really it isn't the 300k households that are the problem. These families are doing better than us, but they aren't rich. If anything, these households are spending $$ on nannies, restaurants, travel, etc. that keep a lot of people employed. And many are one job loss away from losing a lot of what they have.

Maybe not, but they sure do make it easy when they complain about after the mortgage payments in Chevy Chase, Mercedes lease payments, cost of a live-in nanny and cost of private school tuition, "300,000 a year doesn't get you very far."

I agree I find some of those posters annoying. But I have a HHI of 180k soon to be 200k and feel very middle class (lifestyle wise even though I know we have an above avg HHI) with student loans and daycare costs. I think a 300k HHI would provide a lot more breathing room and would be more of an upper middle class lifestyle than middle class. I can understand how some people feel that 300k just doesn't go as far in this area as you might dream 300k would go. Granted I do wish they'd stop complaining on here, it's aggravating to hear someone with much more than you complain about how little they have.

This. This is it.

[Anonymous]

Lord, another one of these threads. Yawn. Yall have too much time on your hands to keep arguing over this. Live your life! How DCUMers classify your income doesn't matter, they have no seat at the table.

[Anonymous]

Even if we take into account the cost of living, I think it's fair to say that $200,000+ is an upper middle class income in this area. You're still earning more than about 85% of the area. $150,000 is UMC in much of the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nothing ordinary about making north of $200K, which puts one in the top 5% of the country. How is that "middle"? And please don't say "250K doesn't get you very far in NW DC, Chevy Chase and Bethesda" - living in an expensive area is a choice. When I lived in NYC, I remember wealthy professionals in Manhattan saying these incomes are "barely getting by" - as if choosing to live in Manhattan isn't itself a luxury.

http://mic.com/articles/64095/what-we-get-wrong-when-we-define-the-middle-class

Sorry OP, unlike you, I would rather live in an expensive area with a short commute so that I can spend time with my family than live in a big cheap house in Haymarket and have to be in the car for four hours a day. I have a friend who gets home and half the time the nanny has already put her kid to bed. I'd rather feel middle class where I live now than feel rich but not ever see my kid. So there you go!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing ordinary about making north of $200K, which puts one in the top 5% of the country. How is that "middle"? And please don't say "250K doesn't get you very far in NW DC, Chevy Chase and Bethesda" - living in an expensive area is a choice. When I lived in NYC, I remember wealthy professionals in Manhattan saying these incomes are "barely getting by" - as if choosing to live in Manhattan isn't itself a luxury.

http://mic.com/articles/64095/what-we-get-wrong-when-we-define-the-middle-class

Sorry OP, unlike you, I would rather live in an expensive area with a short commute so that I can spend time with my family than live in a big cheap house in Haymarket and have to be in the car for four hours a day. I have a friend who gets home and half the time the nanny has already put her kid to bed. I'd rather feel middle class where I live now than feel rich but not ever see my kid. So there you go!

That's not the point. The point is that you are affluent (more than middle or upper middle class, but less than rich) so you have that choice. The true middle class does not have the option of buying a home in an area of town where the tear-down properties start at $600K and real houses start at $800K and up.

No one is saying that you haven't made a good choice. What we're saying is that those who have that choice to make are NOT middle class. You live like the middle class because you have chosen to spend a significant amount of your income on housing in a premium area, but you are paying the premium leaving you less for other areas of disposable income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, in NW DC it is middle class. That's reality.

You're deluded.

Not really. I'm in a small apt in NW DC, no debt, family of 3 living on $160 and we can't even afford a car. $40k wouldn't hurl us into the upper class.

I call bullshit. I owned a home and a car with a family of three in NW DC making about $140K. AND we had student loan debt. AND we have fully funded 401Ks. AND we took a vacation every year. Get a financial advisor...you obviously can't manage money.

NP here, you either had no childcare costs or did this in 1995.

Wrong. I paid for daycare and this was very, very recent. Like, up until a year and a half ago when I moved. The difference is thought we bought a house in a neighborhood that 95% of DCUM would think was beneath them, without central air or a finished basement. For our one year of public preschool we relied on the lottery. Had we stayed we would have continued to do so. We bought what we could afford because we were - and still are - middle class. It can be done but requires tough choices. The question is whether these are choices you are willing to make and if not, what are you going to do about it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry OP, unlike you, I would rather live in an expensive area with a short commute so that I can spend time with my family than live in a big cheap house in Haymarket and have to be in the car for four hours a day. I have a friend who gets home and half the time the nanny has already put her kid to bed. I'd rather feel middle class where I live now than feel rich but not ever see my kid. So there you go!

Exactly. You have the choice to live in a fancy area, which the true middle class can't afford to live in. How many schoolteachers, nurses and paralegals (i.e. actual middle class people) live in Chevy Chase or Bethesda? Not many.

[Anonymous]

Check out this article from huffing ton post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/26/1-percent-in-each-state-map_n_6548222.html

To be one percent in dc you need hhi of $555k

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Check out this article from huffing ton post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/26/1-percent-in-each-state-map_n_6548222.html

To be one percent in dc you need hhi of $555k

Are there percentile or COL definitions for LMC, MC, UMC, etc.? We can all argue till the cows come home about how we "feel" but willing to bet few on this board are actual economists. But surely someone out there has tackled this problem. Obviously there is no one-size-fits-all solution for the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry OP, unlike you, I would rather live in an expensive area with a short commute so that I can spend time with my family than live in a big cheap house in Haymarket and have to be in the car for four hours a day. I have a friend who gets home and half the time the nanny has already put her kid to bed. I'd rather feel middle class where I live now than feel rich but not ever see my kid. So there you go!

Exactly. You have the choice to live in a fancy area, which the true middle class can't afford to live in. How many schoolteachers, nurses and paralegals (i.e. actual middle class people) live in Chevy Chase or Bethesda? Not many.

Agreed. Chevy Chase (or Bethesda, McLean) would've be an awesome location for us commute-wise, but spending over 40% of our income on housing was just not financially feasible. We selected the closest in location we could afford (Silver Spring). No fancy house, 1940s boring brick thing. Middle class folks aren't "choosing" between Chevy Chase and McMansions in exurbs, they are much more limited in where they can buy.

[Anonymous]

One person mentioned anything in Prince William County. Everyone else is focusing on DC or Montgomery County for the most part.

Guess what people, there are commuting options from PWC and south. VRE goes to Crystal City and DC, for example.

PWC is cheaper than Fairfax County, and now with the toll lanes on 95 outside the beltway (and barely inside the beltway), one could slug or join a carpool, and not pay a dime on those lanes and get home much quicker.

How in the world do some people "claim to work from home all the time" is beyond me. I would be curious what kind of jobs y'all have that allow for this.