Supplementing math is becoming the norm now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Long story short, we found out many of the classmates have apparently been going to math class at some weekend Chinese place for years. I assume the teacher probably realizes that and teaches the class as more of a review than new material.

This assumption by teachers/schools is increasingly common locally, both at public and private schools.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

DP. The data says "many" (or possibly "most") but not "every". As with anything else, exceptions must exist here or there in any large country like the USA.

The NAEP math results and PISA math results each show that the US (nationally) is poor at teaching math. Of course, some schools in the US will be better, and some worse, but our national average results for math knowledge can only be called poor.

Really, it's mainly the Asian countries that score well on those tests. And it's cultural from what I understand. My husband is with State Dept and when doing bidding research, most schools internationally were either American curriculum which is based on common core and there was no apparent path to algebra 1 in MS (and still using Lucy Caulkins reader/writer workshop), or British curriculum which is a bit faster paced but doesn't correspond as easily.

It is true that Singapore and Taiwan do well on PIsA teats, but Finland and most other European countries also do very well. ALL of those countries do visibly better than the US.

We are way way down the PISA results list. If we were middle of the pack, that would be one thing, but we aren't even scoring there. We really are towards the bottom.

NAEP is a US-only test, but it also shows poor math scores all across the nation. Common Core curriculum was watered down from prior curricula by the participating states and the education lobby so that all students could pass.

You can’t compare US with other countries- different cultures and attitudes around education, rule following, and parental support. But you can compare the US with itself- and education is undeniable worse than it has been in several decades

You can compare the US to Canada and Canada is doing much better overall. These are the top performers in 2024 in overall education.

1. China
2 South Korea
3 Finland
4 Hong Kong
5 Singapore
6 Canada
7 New Zealand
8 Japan
9 Australia
10. Netherlands
https://intelpoint.co/blogs/world-education-rankings-list-by-country/


The 2022 PISA results ranked the U.S. 9th in reading, 16th in science, and 34th in mathematics among 81 education systems, showing top-tier reading ability but struggling with math, often falling behind Asian and European nations.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=1

Canada’s math scores have dropped in the last few years like many countries but they still do much better than the US

[Anonymous]

Again, those comparisons are based on scores from kids who have moved into tracked education. The kids in China, Singapore, Japan, South Korea and the like who do not score high enough in 6th grade to move into college prep MS are not included in those scores. And plenty of kids in those countries do not move into the college prep MS and HSs. They track into votech programs.

The US scores include all the students.

Yes, math scores could improve in the US but the top 10/top 20 countries are not as far ahead as you think that they are. We keep making a false comparison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP. Our DD is in 6th grade AAP in fairfax county.

We have to supplement as they move too fast in math. They cram for 2 weeks and take a block test, then move on to another topic.

We took our kid to mathnasium and they said she barely understands 4th grade material. They said the school just skips over material too fast, retests and just keeps going forward. It doesn't really matter if they understand the material, a lot of teachers have to prep the kids for the tests.

We feel like we need to supplement just to understand the basics the school skipped over.

Honestly, this just sounds like your DD should not have pushed into AAP. My son belongs there and if anything thinks the math curriculum moves too slow. We don’t supplement other than take a general interest in math and how it applies to the world, do math gets integrated into lots of discussions at home. This is how it should be for a gifted kid. We are so happy our son can push into Algebra I in 6th grade next year. He needs that.

If your kid is struggling in AAP, move them down. Don’t stress her out like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Again, those comparisons are based on scores from kids who have moved into tracked education. The kids in China, Singapore, Japan, South Korea and the like who do not score high enough in 6th grade to move into college prep MS are not included in those scores. And plenty of kids in those countries do not move into the college prep MS and HSs. They track into votech programs.

The US scores include all the students.

Yes, math scores could improve in the US but the top 10/top 20 countries are not as far ahead as you think that they are. We keep making a false comparison.

Look at Canada specifically. Why are they up there with the Asian schools you mentioned. They are similar to the US but have consistently scored higher than American students.

I watched an interesting video of a man interviewing young women in London who were from all different countries. Just lighthearted cute stuff. One thing he did was ask some of them to quickly identify different countries flags. 20 flags in 30 seconds. Obscure flags like Bahrain, Luxembourg, Tonga. One girl killed it, she got every flag. After she finished she added “I’m Canadian, not American.” That was no surprise to any American watching.

[Anonymous]

We do Beast Academy. We actually enjoy helping our 1st grader with some of the challenge puzzles. She loves the comics and Richard Rusczyk's videos - she'll watch them even when she knows the math. I've never found anything better, and it's a nice bonding time when she gets stumped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other kids in the class understand the concepts moving at that speed. The problem is they but kids into AAP who are not ready for advanced math.

No doubt some do without help, but the most likely scenario is that many kids in that AAP class already are supplementing math outside school. That might be parents who purchased workbooks, at a math center, or a tutor.

And by "supplementing" I merely mean the student gets enough outside practice to really learn the methods. I do not necessarily mean pushing ahead, though no doubt some also do that.

The car stickers at Kumon, Mathnasium, RSM, or similar tell the story. Car stickers are both from good public schools and also from good private schools.

There is a whole thread in DCUM on math supplementing. Those businesses would not be there if there were only a few students supplementing math.

Kumon, Mathnasiasm and RSM are just more of the same stuff they get in school. AoPS (and BA) is so much more rigorous and goes deeper, so it makes sense to do it as supplement because unlike the other programs, it’s not redundant of school math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, those comparisons are based on scores from kids who have moved into tracked education. The kids in China, Singapore, Japan, South Korea and the like who do not score high enough in 6th grade to move into college prep MS are not included in those scores. And plenty of kids in those countries do not move into the college prep MS and HSs. They track into votech programs.

The US scores include all the students.

Yes, math scores could improve in the US but the top 10/top 20 countries are not as far ahead as you think that they are. We keep making a false comparison.

Look at Canada specifically. Why are they up there with the Asian schools you mentioned. They are similar to the US but have consistently scored higher than American students.

I watched an interesting video of a man interviewing young women in London who were from all different countries. Just lighthearted cute stuff. One thing he did was ask some of them to quickly identify different countries flags. 20 flags in 30 seconds. Obscure flags like Bahrain, Luxembourg, Tonga. One girl killed it, she got every flag. After she finished she added “I’m Canadian, not American.” That was no surprise to any American watching.

Ok but let's be realistic. Every once in a while, you find a person with an obscure interest and they can answer every question perfectly. I've been that person before in other domains.

I had a flag toy as a child with about 50 pop-up flags to identify. I used to know them cold. But I have no idea what the 3 flags mentioned look like. I'd still probably do pretty well on a global flag test.

It must help to be from a country that has many nearby contiguous countries. How many Europeans are going to know the "Keystone State" from the "Show Me State"? Americans might because of license plates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s so sad to see this as the norm now.

It’s more sad that we pay a lot of money in taxes for schools that are essentially a big waste of time.

I don't think schools are a big waste of time. I think math curriculums got messed with the same as reading curriculums did (Lucy Calkins style) and need to go back to basics.

And I think schools are actually trying to do too much. Packing too many objectives into the day. So not enough time is spent on basics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other kids in the class understand the concepts moving at that speed. The problem is they but kids into AAP who are not ready for advanced math.

No doubt some do without help, but the most likely scenario is that many kids in that AAP class already are supplementing math outside school. That might be parents who purchased workbooks, at a math center, or a tutor.

And by "supplementing" I merely mean the student gets enough outside practice to really learn the methods. I do not necessarily mean pushing ahead, though no doubt some also do that.

The car stickers at Kumon, Mathnasium, RSM, or similar tell the story. Car stickers are both from good public schools and also from good private schools.

There is a whole thread in DCUM on math supplementing. Those businesses would not be there if there were only a few students supplementing math.

Kumon, Mathnasiasm and RSM are just more of the same stuff they get in school. AoPS (and BA) is so much more rigorous and goes deeper, so it makes sense to do it as supplement because unlike the other programs, it’s not redundant of school math.

RSM Honors is not close to what kids are doing in school, it is all expansions and deeper dives. RSM Math Competition is very similar to AoPS. My kid did both programs. AoPS had kids in the class who could not handle the work. The teacher had to work with them after class, he didn’t have that issue at RSM, probably because the classes are leveled so that kids are working at a level that is appropriate, AoPS has kids in it whose parents seem to think they are stronger at math then they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s so sad to see this as the norm now.

It’s more sad that we pay a lot of money in taxes for schools that are essentially a big waste of time.

I don't think schools are a big waste of time. I think math curriculums got messed with the same as reading curriculums did (Lucy Calkins style) and need to go back to basics.

And I think schools are actually trying to do too much. Packing too many objectives into the day. So not enough time is spent on basics.

Agree, but I don’t think it’s from activities. Schools have now become a catch all to provide numerous social services, and medical/mental health services. It isn’t just academics anymore.

[Anonymous]

On PISA tests, it is widely understood in many parts of the world that China games the system. So their results simply are not believable.

However, S Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Canada, and most other countries are NOT gaming the system with their PISA results. Math as a actually taught in SG has lots of repetition and a spiral curriculum. They will go back periodically and reinforce math lessons from months ago. The US math curricula largely eliminated repetition (because it "bores students") and is sequential (not spiral) -- meaning that only rarely is there reinforcement now for lessons originally given months ago.

Also, in several higher ranked countries, even the elementary math teachers have actual BS Mathematics degrees (NOT "education" degrees and NOT "math education" degrees) -- and also are paid a bit more. This means they actually know the material cold and can explain it more clearly than most US elementary math teachers. Teachers unions here object to paying math teachers with BS Mathematics degrees a bit more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other kids in the class understand the concepts moving at that speed. The problem is they but kids into AAP who are not ready for advanced math.

No doubt some do without help, but the most likely scenario is that many kids in that AAP class already are supplementing math outside school. That might be parents who purchased workbooks, at a math center, or a tutor.

And by "supplementing" I merely mean the student gets enough outside practice to really learn the methods. I do not necessarily mean pushing ahead, though no doubt some also do that.

The car stickers at Kumon, Mathnasium, RSM, or similar tell the story. Car stickers are both from good public schools and also from good private schools.

There is a whole thread in DCUM on math supplementing. Those businesses would not be there if there were only a few students supplementing math.

Kumon, Mathnasiasm and RSM are just more of the same stuff they get in school. AoPS (and BA) is so much more rigorous and goes deeper, so it makes sense to do it as supplement because unlike the other programs, it’s not redundant of school math.

RSM Honors is not close to what kids are doing in school, it is all expansions and deeper dives. RSM Math Competition is very similar to AoPS. My kid did both programs. AoPS had kids in the class who could not handle the work. The teacher had to work with them after class, he didn’t have that issue at RSM, probably because the classes are leveled so that kids are working at a level that is appropriate, AoPS has kids in it whose parents seem to think they are stronger at math then they are.

I can see that. We do AoPS at home - we read the comic books and do the online assignments, and it's really easy to tell exactly what your kid understands because you get parent reports. If they don't get a 3-star on an assignment, you can choose to have them redo the assignment until they do. I quite enjoy doing BA with my youngest, so I don't see any value in wasting time commuting to a center. We might enroll her in one of their online classes if she starts getting hung up at a higher level, but so far it's been easy to just use their system. Once they graduate from BA and move on to Alcumus, you get a more adaptive learning approach. But so far, there hasn't been anything in BA that I see value in skipping. If a particular lesson is easy, and a couple have been, then she can just fly through that lesson in a couple of minutes and move on. But it all builds such a deep foundation in math, and it doesn't rush kids ahead so they are totally bored in school.

[Anonymous]

I send my kids to KUMON. PP said it is “redundant” because it just teaches stuff from school. That is true in a way— the curriculum is very similar. However, the homework repetition is totally different. School homework has ten problems and KUMON homework has 50-100 (nightly!). I don’t think kids can memorize math facts with the homework provided from school. With more advanced skills (let’s say three digit vertical subtraction for elementary school), the KUMON homework has scaffolding that just isn’t present in the school homework because there just aren’t enough problems to see mastery of different sub skills (I.e. 493-72 is using less advanced skills than 441-72, which is easier than 401-72)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I send my kids to KUMON. PP said it is “redundant” because it just teaches stuff from school. That is true in a way— the curriculum is very similar. However, the homework repetition is totally different. School homework has ten problems and KUMON homework has 50-100 (nightly!). I don’t think kids can memorize math facts with the homework provided from school. With more advanced skills (let’s say three digit vertical subtraction for elementary school), the KUMON homework has scaffolding that just isn’t present in the school homework because there just aren’t enough problems to see mastery of different sub skills (I.e. 493-72 is using less advanced skills than 441-72, which is easier than 401-72)

I think it's fair to say that different programs work for different kids. One of my kids needed a lot of support in memorizing math facts. Flashcards, games, etc. It was a multiyear process practicing every night. My youngest doesn't need any repetition of math facts, so her time is better spent on problem-solving and competition-style math.