Better odds for full pay applicants

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Listen to today’s YCBK. Full blown attack on Northeastern and the “shady” way they handle their satellite campuses and obvious consideration of need vs full pay.


They also talked about the massive gender gap in quality of applicants this year between male and female:

“ “You know, I see, I see, see usually boys have more selective options than somebody who's female with the same sort of stats. They're obviously not the same person ever, but I was really...

Now, I had a VP of Enrollment who's been in the profession for maybe 25 years, multiple schools. Tell me, we've never seen a gender gap like this. Like, I don't know what's going on out there.

And we were just grappling with each other, like, what was causing that? Was it COVID? How COVID impacted?

You know, we were just speculating together. But he was telling me that they've never seen this disparity in the strength of the girl pool versus the boy pool like to have this year. I don't know if you heard, you might not have heard because I just did it, this episode last Monday, where I went through like 15 different changes that I'm expecting because of all the financial pressure colleges are under.”

From Your College Bound Kid | Admission Tips, Admission Trends & Admission Interviews: An interview with Jim Bock, Dean and VP at Swarthmore College-3 of 3, Apr 23, 2025

Girl pool is stronger, but less impressive boys are being admitted to more and more selective schools.
I think the algo is working? This is precisely what they want - more boys admitted for that gender balance. It's just the girl "pool" is stronger.

I don't think the top girls are better than the top boys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without aid, grants, DEI and affirmative action, is it going to be the year of wealthy Caucasian applicants?

Full pay has always made a difference no matter what anyone claims. ED is essentially affirmative action for kids who can pay full price (and yes, I know some kids ED and get tons of aid, but they are a small %).

You really have no clue what percent of ED kids are full pay v. Financial aid.

But they do.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, looks like possibly no schools are truly need blind – only question is whether the blinders come off on the waitlist, or earlier through an algorithm that keeps the AO’s in the blind but uses census tract info to “shape” the class and exclude kids who might need aid. Do we know if these algorithms include applicant specific info such as the colleges the parents attended, their occupation or level of education? Could it include whether the kid applied for financial aid? That would be predictive of full pay and yield and the process could still be blind up to that point – the AO’s wouldn’t have to see this.

Remember, everyone reviewing the application can see that. For some schools (looking at you, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, and more), they ask where siblings go to college. They aren't being nosy. They use this in the EM algorithm.

And yes, parents' places of education are now more important than ever. For two equally qualified candidates to Vanderbilt, if one set of parents went to Stanford (together) and one set went to Michigan State, let me know if you think the algorithm will believe that they are "equal".

Most overlooked part of an application. And often very important. Ask any former AO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without aid, grants, DEI and affirmative action, is it going to be the year of wealthy Caucasian applicants?

Full pay has always made a difference no matter what anyone claims. ED is essentially affirmative action for kids who can pay full price (and yes, I know some kids ED and get tons of aid, but they are a small %).

You really have no clue what percent of ED kids are full pay v. Financial aid.

But they do.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

Seriously, is this how you go through life? Not at all capable of backing up your claims with data?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without aid, grants, DEI and affirmative action, is it going to be the year of wealthy Caucasian applicants?

Full pay has always made a difference no matter what anyone claims. ED is essentially affirmative action for kids who can pay full price (and yes, I know some kids ED and get tons of aid, but they are a small %).

You really have no clue what percent of ED kids are full pay v. Financial aid.

But they do.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

Seriously, is this how you go through life? Not at all capable of backing up your claims with data?

You two need to take this outside.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without aid, grants, DEI and affirmative action, is it going to be the year of wealthy Caucasian applicants?

Full pay has always made a difference no matter what anyone claims. ED is essentially affirmative action for kids who can pay full price (and yes, I know some kids ED and get tons of aid, but they are a small %).

You really have no clue what percent of ED kids are full pay v. Financial aid.

Omfg you are in denial. I am friends with AO. They need to make their financial targets, and they know damned well that many Ed applicants are full pay, and yes there are plenty of tells to help guide them. Don’t be naive.

Again, you have no data to support your argument. Anecdotes are not data.

NP. The question that asks if a student needs Financial Aid is probably what PP is referring to. That’s how AO’s know.

It is that and it is other things they ask. You and dh’s alma mater, your employment, where other dc go to school. Think for a minute. Seriously. Think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without aid, grants, DEI and affirmative action, is it going to be the year of wealthy Caucasian applicants?

Full pay has always made a difference no matter what anyone claims. ED is essentially affirmative action for kids who can pay full price (and yes, I know some kids ED and get tons of aid, but they are a small %).

You really have no clue what percent of ED kids are full pay v. Financial aid.

Omfg you are in denial. I am friends with AO. They need to make their financial targets, and they know damned well that many Ed applicants are full pay, and yes there are plenty of tells to help guide them. Don’t be naive.

Again, you have no data to support your argument. Anecdotes are not data.

NP. The question that asks if a student needs Financial Aid is probably what PP is referring to. That’s how AO’s know.

It is that and it is other things they ask. You and dh’s alma mater, your employment, where other dc go to school. Think for a minute. Seriously. Think.

But at need aware schools, don't the AOs have financial information of applicants who apply for FA and file the FAFSA/CSS? So they don't have to rely on the "tells"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without aid, grants, DEI and affirmative action, is it going to be the year of wealthy Caucasian applicants?

Full pay has always made a difference no matter what anyone claims. ED is essentially affirmative action for kids who can pay full price (and yes, I know some kids ED and get tons of aid, but they are a small %).

You really have no clue what percent of ED kids are full pay v. Financial aid.

Omfg you are in denial. I am friends with AO. They need to make their financial targets, and they know damned well that many Ed applicants are full pay, and yes there are plenty of tells to help guide them. Don’t be naive.

Again, you have no data to support your argument. Anecdotes are not data.

NP. The question that asks if a student needs Financial Aid is probably what PP is referring to. That’s how AO’s know.

It is that and it is other things they ask. You and dh’s alma mater, your employment, where other dc go to school. Think for a minute. Seriously. Think.

But at need aware schools, don't the AOs have financial information of applicants who apply for FA and file the FAFSA/CSS? So they don't have to rely on the "tells"?

Yes at need aware.

But it need blind schools they do not. They can’t even see if you’ve applied for aid.

But somehow they still figure everything out….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, looks like possibly no schools are truly need blind – only question is whether the blinders come off on the waitlist, or earlier through an algorithm that keeps the AO’s in the blind but uses census tract info to “shape” the class and exclude kids who might need aid. Do we know if these algorithms include applicant specific info such as the colleges the parents attended, their occupation or level of education? Could it include whether the kid applied for financial aid? That would be predictive of full pay and yield and the process could still be blind up to that point – the AO’s wouldn’t have to see this.

Remember, everyone reviewing the application can see that. For some schools (looking at you, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, and more), they ask where siblings go to college. They aren't being nosy. They use this in the EM algorithm.

And yes, parents' places of education are now more important than ever. For two equally qualified candidates to Vanderbilt, if one set of parents went to Stanford (together) and one set went to Michigan State, let me know if you think the algorithm will believe that they are "equal".

Most overlooked part of an application. And often very important. Ask any former AO.

We have seen that parents with “big jobs and titles” and pedigreed/ multiple degrees tend to have children who get into multiple selective schools - even when they’re not the top of our private school class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[

It’s those last minute apps. Rarely does someone get in RD without some interaction unless very top of class.
This should be a warning to juniors.
My kid got into several high reaches (T20), without the very highest or best stats. A ton of engagement with the schools admitted to….
Regrets about not engaging with a few other reaches.
It mattered.

How exactly did yours engage with colleges? What does that even mean?
(If you spend so much time engaging with different colleges, how do you maintain GPA/EC/job/etc....not to mention sleep/meals/chores/family/health.... then they wonder why we have a mental health epidemic)

How do they know if you browsed their site on a different computer? The whole idea of tracking kid's browsing is just creepy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[

It’s those last minute apps. Rarely does someone get in RD without some interaction unless very top of class.
This should be a warning to juniors.
My kid got into several high reaches (T20), without the very highest or best stats. A ton of engagement with the schools admitted to….
Regrets about not engaging with a few other reaches.
It mattered.

How exactly did yours engage with colleges? What does that even mean?
(If you spend so much time engaging with different colleges, how do you maintain GPA/EC/job/etc....not to mention sleep/meals/chores/family/health.... then they wonder why we have a mental health epidemic)

How do they know if you browsed their site on a different computer? The whole idea of tracking kid's browsing is just creepy.

I’m not sure, but imagine it’s attending campus tours/events, AO interviews on campus when available (WashU, Wake, Rice), online webinars, and then any in-person fall events (including sitting in on fall classes, which many T25 schools now allow and some encourage).

Our school’s College counselor has also said that submitting last-minute applications without planning it out in advance tends not to work out well (other than for certain Ivies which don’t care about this stuff) because certain peers will be much more actively engaged with that same college all year long.

I think it’s all an argument for starting to make your college list much earlier in the process.