Tell High School Students to Stop Contacting Professors

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s kinda obnoxious for HS kids to think they should get a job doing research.

The professor has a slew of graduate students at his fingertips to help with research. Why would someone think he would ask a kid in HS to help with research?Tell me why. Let me real here.

Go get a job at the mall and leave this professor alone.

And I think you haven’t bothered to read the thread. The kids are being told they need to do research. They would probably be happier spending one their last free summers lifeguarding than do research.

Blame the HSs, the AOs, the consultants and the parents.

Don't blame the AO's. I speak to AO's all of the time (athletic recruiting). I have never been asked about a kids research even at the very top schools. They ask about a lot of stuff but research never comes up.

Athletic recruits are hooked. A 4.0, good test scores, and "standard strong" ECs are more than enough. Just because athletes do not benefit much from research does not mean no one does.

Also, have your talked to Caltech or MIT AOs?

I do blame the AOs. This is in their control. All their false concern for kids’ mental/emotional well-being is just cr@p.

DCUM generally thinks AOs are liars, but you're blaming them for something they have never told you is required?

Definitely smarter to go with people on the internet or consultants. The consultants who haven't worked in admissions, have irrelevant info because they retired years ago, or who were part-time readers doing data entry and first looks at essays and letters of rec. Seems like a great plan.

The AOs can clearly state on their webpages that research relationships with professors at the college level will not be given any more weight in admissions than a regular job.

They bear a great deal of responsibility for not controlling this.

So on top of stating what they want, they have to anticipate every bizarre strategy cooked up by the consultant industry?

This isn't on them. It's on gullible, wealthy people who think they need to do all this stuff. Normal people don't have access to this stuff and aren't doing it.

You're mistaken.

The colleges explicitly advocate for this behavior:

https://www.propublica.org/article/college-high-school-research-peer-review-publications

I beg you to work on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. FIVE Ivy League schools mentioned. Out of the thousands of colleges. The Stanford AO mentioned in the article worked there in the 1990s.

At Harvard, “evidence of substantial scholarship” can elevate an applicant, according to a university filing in a lawsuit challenging its use of affirmative action in admissions. The University of Pennsylvania’s admissions dean, Whitney Soule, boasted last year that nearly one-third of accepted students “engaged in academic research” in high school, including some who “co-authored publications included in leading journals.” A Penn spokesperson declined to identify the journals. Yale, Columbia and Brown, among others, encourage applicants to send research.

MIT acknowledges exactly what I said, that this stuff is being done by people of means.

“Research is one of these activities that we’re very aware they’re not offered equitably,” Stuart Schmill of MIT said.

There is a vast difference between a first authorship in Nature, and the vast quantities of co-authorships that kids produce in order to get into college these days. The real stuff is extremely rare and certainly not a requirement or else nobody would get admitted. As for the rest, there are equally impressive ways to spend ones time in high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nice suggestions, but

1) it's not the job, and likely not in the talent set, of university researchers to train high school students. Teaching well is incredibly difficult and suggesting that anyone who runs a lab will do a good job at training young/ uninformed kids is not fair to the researchers or to talented teachers, and

2) outreach requires a TON of resources, which are rather tight at the moment, given the MAGA movement.

The liability issues alone. Eek.

Colleges need to stop rewarding kids with connections who make this look like the newest bar to reach for admission.

[Anonymous]

There are free programs you could refer them to:

https://www.sci-mi.org/

https://www.usaeop.com/?s=high+school+summer+programs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are free programs you could refer them to:

https://www.sci-mi.org/

https://www.usaeop.com/?s=high+school+summer+programs

https://www.pathwaystoscience.org/programs.aspx?u=HighSchool_High%20School%20Students&r=&s=&sa=either&p=either&c=either&f=&dd=&ft=&submit=y&adv=adv

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s kinda obnoxious for HS kids to think they should get a job doing research.

The professor has a slew of graduate students at his fingertips to help with research. Why would someone think he would ask a kid in HS to help with research?Tell me why. Let me real here.

Go get a job at the mall and leave this professor alone.

And I think you haven’t bothered to read the thread. The kids are being told they need to do research. They would probably be happier spending one their last free summers lifeguarding than do research.

Blame the HSs, the AOs, the consultants and the parents.

Don't blame the AO's. I speak to AO's all of the time (athletic recruiting). I have never been asked about a kids research even at the very top schools. They ask about a lot of stuff but research never comes up.

Athletic recruits are hooked. A 4.0, good test scores, and "standard strong" ECs are more than enough. Just because athletes do not benefit much from research does not mean no one does.

Also, have your talked to Caltech or MIT AOs?

I do blame the AOs. This is in their control. All their false concern for kids’ mental/emotional well-being is just cr@p.

DCUM generally thinks AOs are liars, but you're blaming them for something they have never told you is required?

Definitely smarter to go with people on the internet or consultants. The consultants who haven't worked in admissions, have irrelevant info because they retired years ago, or who were part-time readers doing data entry and first looks at essays and letters of rec. Seems like a great plan.

The AOs can clearly state on their webpages that research relationships with professors at the college level will not be given any more weight in admissions than a regular job.

They bear a great deal of responsibility for not controlling this.

So on top of stating what they want, they have to anticipate every bizarre strategy cooked up by the consultant industry?

This isn't on them. It's on gullible, wealthy people who think they need to do all this stuff. Normal people don't have access to this stuff and aren't doing it.

You're mistaken.

The colleges explicitly advocate for this behavior:

https://www.propublica.org/article/college-high-school-research-peer-review-publications

I beg you to work on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. FIVE Ivy League schools mentioned. Out of the thousands of colleges. The Stanford AO mentioned in the article worked there in the 1990s.

At Harvard, “evidence of substantial scholarship” can elevate an applicant, according to a university filing in a lawsuit challenging its use of affirmative action in admissions. The University of Pennsylvania’s admissions dean, Whitney Soule, boasted last year that nearly one-third of accepted students “engaged in academic research” in high school, including some who “co-authored publications included in leading journals.” A Penn spokesperson declined to identify the journals. Yale, Columbia and Brown, among others, encourage applicants to send research.

MIT acknowledges exactly what I said, that this stuff is being done by people of means.

“Research is one of these activities that we’re very aware they’re not offered equitably,” Stuart Schmill of MIT said.

Google "motte and bailey", pal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s kinda obnoxious for HS kids to think they should get a job doing research.

The professor has a slew of graduate students at his fingertips to help with research. Why would someone think he would ask a kid in HS to help with research?Tell me why. Let me real here.

Go get a job at the mall and leave this professor alone.

And I think you haven’t bothered to read the thread. The kids are being told they need to do research. They would probably be happier spending one their last free summers lifeguarding than do research.

Blame the HSs, the AOs, the consultants and the parents.

Don't blame the AO's. I speak to AO's all of the time (athletic recruiting). I have never been asked about a kids research even at the very top schools. They ask about a lot of stuff but research never comes up.

Athletic recruits are hooked. A 4.0, good test scores, and "standard strong" ECs are more than enough. Just because athletes do not benefit much from research does not mean no one does.

Also, have your talked to Caltech or MIT AOs?

I do blame the AOs. This is in their control. All their false concern for kids’ mental/emotional well-being is just cr@p.

DCUM generally thinks AOs are liars, but you're blaming them for something they have never told you is required?

Definitely smarter to go with people on the internet or consultants. The consultants who haven't worked in admissions, have irrelevant info because they retired years ago, or who were part-time readers doing data entry and first looks at essays and letters of rec. Seems like a great plan.

The AOs can clearly state on their webpages that research relationships with professors at the college level will not be given any more weight in admissions than a regular job.

They bear a great deal of responsibility for not controlling this.

So on top of stating what they want, they have to anticipate every bizarre strategy cooked up by the consultant industry?

This isn't on them. It's on gullible, wealthy people who think they need to do all this stuff. Normal people don't have access to this stuff and aren't doing it.

You're mistaken.

The colleges explicitly advocate for this behavior:

https://www.propublica.org/article/college-high-school-research-peer-review-publications

I beg you to work on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. FIVE Ivy League schools mentioned. Out of the thousands of colleges. The Stanford AO mentioned in the article worked there in the 1990s.

At Harvard, “evidence of substantial scholarship” can elevate an applicant, according to a university filing in a lawsuit challenging its use of affirmative action in admissions. The University of Pennsylvania’s admissions dean, Whitney Soule, boasted last year that nearly one-third of accepted students “engaged in academic research” in high school, including some who “co-authored publications included in leading journals.” A Penn spokesperson declined to identify the journals. Yale, Columbia and Brown, among others, encourage applicants to send research.

MIT acknowledges exactly what I said, that this stuff is being done by people of means.

“Research is one of these activities that we’re very aware they’re not offered equitably,” Stuart Schmill of MIT said.

Google "motte and bailey", pal

Please explain how that applies. PP said the Propublica article proves that the colleges "explicitly advocate" for college-level research. The article cited five schools out of the thousands out there. Five out of 4000 does not prove the PP's point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are admission services that target kids for elite schools that suggest kids write a professor at a school they want to attend and express interest in their field or work and ask for some literature to read or to assist with research.

The idea is that the admissions officer ultimately works for professors, and professors at elite schools ultimately want smart kids who are excited about their field and its possibilities. Of course, that may be true, but I’d be pis*ed if 20-30 kids contacted me every year for this brown nose effort.

But they don't. Professors report to Dean/Provost. Admissions reports to a VP/VC of Enrollment Management.

Enrollment Management makes sure there are enough FULL paying students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get it- my husband is a professor and his time is spread thin. But at the same time, our D26 cold emailed the research dept in her area of interest at our local state university, and is in the process of job shadowing- which will hopefully turn into a research spot. You can't fault kids for trying to learn about their potential careers/majors before their parents dump $$$ into a college education in a specific field. I'd rather know up front if it's not a good fit going into her freshman year of college.

Your child probably got that because of your husband. The person either knew your husband/ wants something/recognized the last name.

Nothing bothers me more than faculty who don't recognize their privilege!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am horrified by this and would never allow it as a parent. But you are a business professor: they want something from you.

On the other hand, sometimes professors in severely undersubscribed areas are really the ones who should be wanting something from the student. After all, some humanities departments are dying on the vine.

For that reason, I did allow/encourage DC to write two very brief emails: one to a professor in a niche humanities major at a top 10 SLAC, and one to a professor in the same field at a very large but prestigious oos state flagship.

To my great surprise, the large school professor answered; he was lovely and informative. The SLAC professor did not.

Guess where kid did not apply?

Same poster. Should have made clear kid was not asking for anything, other than some insight/brief advice on what it's like to study there (to inform DC's decision whether they wanted to apply early).

Most faculty do not have time to reply to random emails. They are paid to teach and do research. Many get hundreds of emails a day. The fact you think your child deserved a response is really thoughtless. It was nice the professor responded, but think about if every single high school kid did that? Already they get emails from graduate applicants which usually require a response.

Asking for insight/brief advice is asking for something and to act like it isn't, is not thinking of the other person. I think if the professor replies, great, if they don't that is fine also. Many assistants go through emails and might delete it or the professor is too busy/ might be teaching multiple courses and writing a book that semester.

Some universities have programs for high school students, so if your kid wants experience I would recommend looking into those programs and contacting those faculty who actually want to work with high school students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are admission services that target kids for elite schools that suggest kids write a professor at a school they want to attend and express interest in their field or work and ask for some literature to read or to assist with research.

The idea is that the admissions officer ultimately works for professors, and professors at elite schools ultimately want smart kids who are excited about their field and its possibilities. Of course, that may be true, but I’d be pis*ed if 20-30 kids contacted me every year for this brown nose effort.

But they don't. Professors report to Dean/Provost. Admissions reports to a VP/VC of Enrollment Management.

Enrollment Management makes sure there are enough FULL paying students.

I don't think you have the full information. Financial Aid comes under EM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am horrified by this and would never allow it as a parent. But you are a business professor: they want something from you.

On the other hand, sometimes professors in severely undersubscribed areas are really the ones who should be wanting something from the student. After all, some humanities departments are dying on the vine.

For that reason, I did allow/encourage DC to write two very brief emails: one to a professor in a niche humanities major at a top 10 SLAC, and one to a professor in the same field at a very large but prestigious oos state flagship.

To my great surprise, the large school professor answered; he was lovely and informative. The SLAC professor did not.

Guess where kid did not apply?

Same poster. Should have made clear kid was not asking for anything, other than some insight/brief advice on what it's like to study there (to inform DC's decision whether they wanted to apply early).

Most faculty do not have time to reply to random emails. They are paid to teach and do research. Many get hundreds of emails a day. The fact you think your child deserved a response is really thoughtless. It was nice the professor responded, but think about if every single high school kid did that? Already they get emails from graduate applicants which usually require a response.

Asking for insight/brief advice is asking for something and to act like it isn't, is not thinking of the other person. I think if the professor replies, great, if they don't that is fine also. Many assistants go through emails and might delete it or the professor is too busy/ might be teaching multiple courses and writing a book that semester.

Some universities have programs for high school students, so if your kid wants experience I would recommend looking into those programs and contacting those faculty who actually want to work with high school students.

It is thoughtless that these so-called "professors" presume to know what being a SLAC humanities professor at a field "dying on the vine" -- did you not know they have no grad students? -- is like. Asked and answered but, no, these emails are few and far between for such professors. Nor was anything written about "desert." But I will say something about it now: students "deserve" professors who can read closely and write -- in any field. This thread only demonstrates how deficient most professors are in this regard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s kinda obnoxious for HS kids to think they should get a job doing research.

The professor has a slew of graduate students at his fingertips to help with research. Why would someone think he would ask a kid in HS to help with research?Tell me why. Let me real here.

Go get a job at the mall and leave this professor alone.

+1

It’s insulting. No 17 year old can be helpful to them without a lot of work and handholding. Why does anyone feel entitled to their time?

These are probably the same people who moan about faculty kid acceptances. It’s right in line with the complete disrespect they have for the profession.

So professors shouldn't have an interest in growing their fields and developing talent? Yes, teaching others new skills is work. Professors of course do not have unlimited bandwidth. But it's just depressing that this many academia aren't motivated or creative enough to figure out ways to support younger students at all, and only want help to be a one-way street. BTW, my dad was a professor and dean for decades and made time for his students. But I've also observed plenty of prima donna academics over the years who barely interact with students at all. Seems to be getting worse.

They develop talent. It is called teaching graduate student!

There are universities who have programs for high school students or even undergrads wanting to go to elite grad schools. Contact those professors!

[Anonymous]

Cold calling, cold emailing - these are the only way that unhooked and not networked students can get internships. However, once you internalize it, you do not feel like a failure if someone like OP acts prissy. It is a numbers game and students should keep sending applications.

OP's privilege is showing. As well as his self-importance as a mediocre White man!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are admission services that target kids for elite schools that suggest kids write a professor at a school they want to attend and express interest in their field or work and ask for some literature to read or to assist with research.

The idea is that the admissions officer ultimately works for professors, and professors at elite schools ultimately want smart kids who are excited about their field and its possibilities. Of course, that may be true, but I’d be pis*ed if 20-30 kids contacted me every year for this brown nose effort.

But they don't. Professors report to Dean/Provost. Admissions reports to a VP/VC of Enrollment Management.

Enrollment Management makes sure there are enough FULL paying students.

I don't think you have the full information. Financial Aid comes under EM.

Considering I have family and friends who work in Admissions/ EM I think I do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As business professor, I get tons of annoying emails from students wanting "research internships" or "mentorship". Some are graduate students, some are undergrads, and some are in high school. Some are in my county, some are in my state. Some are in India or Bangladesh.

"Dear Professor X, I am a junior at XYZ high school and am greatly impressed by your paper "" [published before this kid was born]. I would like to study under you."

One elementary school girl from across the country asked for a free sweatshirt. Obviously her teacher told her to do this. One private high school student bragged that he founded and ran a charitable investment fund. The assets under management were less than one year of tuition. Some college counselors must be telling them to get lines on their resumes. One stranger sent his resume and asked for a letter of recommendation.

This is all an annoying waste of time. I mostly teach graduate students, never lower-level undergrads. High schools don't even offer courses in my subject. Who is telling students to do this?

And you should not mostly be teaching grad students. I would fire you if you did not have tenure.

You clearly have little knowledge of academia.

Agree with this. Certain aspects of research require more experience due to the complexity of implementation.