Income based fines for traffic camera tickets in DC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were 40 traffic deaths in DC in 2021. Here’s the breakdown of causes per the police:

10 — driver drunk or stoned
12 — driver speeding
3 — driver error
6 — pedestrian error
1 — bicycle error
1 — scooter/motorcycle/ATV error
5 — hit and run/unknown
2 — medical emergencies

Cameras have zero impact on most of these deaths so don’t expect putting even more up to have much effect

Traffic cameras are not about safety. Theyre about plugging revenue shortfalls in the government’s budget caused by people abandoning downtown. You’re going to have to cover what used to be charged to people who owned office buildings.

They’re shifting the tax burden from wealthy office building owners to average drivers including poor people and using this goofy unworkable idea of charging on a sliding scale to try to hide that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were 40 traffic deaths in DC in 2021. Here’s the breakdown of causes per the police:

10 — driver drunk or stoned
12 — driver speeding
3 — driver error
6 — pedestrian error
1 — bicycle error
1 — scooter/motorcycle/ATV error
5 — hit and run/unknown
2 — medical emergencies

Cameras have zero impact on most of these deaths so don’t expect putting even more up to have much effect

Traffic cameras are not about safety. Theyre about plugging revenue shortfalls in the government’s budget caused by people abandoning downtown. You’re going to have to cover what used to be charged to people who owned office buildings.

No, they're about safety. Don't want a ticket? Obey the speed limit, stop at stop signs, stop at red lights - or don't drive.

Love these people who say we have to reduce penalties on violent criminals because deterrence doesn’t work but, with drivers, we have to increase penalties because deterrence works.

Bottom line: whole point of having a progressive fine based on income is to redistribute more wealth from one group to another. The DC government is all about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were 40 traffic deaths in DC in 2021. Here’s the breakdown of causes per the police:

10 — driver drunk or stoned
12 — driver speeding
3 — driver error
6 — pedestrian error
1 — bicycle error
1 — scooter/motorcycle/ATV error
5 — hit and run/unknown
2 — medical emergencies

Cameras have zero impact on most of these deaths so don’t expect putting even more up to have much effect

Traffic cameras are not about safety. Theyre about plugging revenue shortfalls in the government’s budget caused by people abandoning downtown. You’re going to have to cover what used to be charged to people who owned office buildings.

Exactly! Which is why I laugh when I get a DC ticket.
Sometimes I mail them back with no payment and add a few taunting insults in for good measure.

[Anonymous]

This is hilariously impractical. The city will find it all but impossible to verify people’s incomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is hilariously impractical. The city will find it all but impossible to verify people’s incomes.

Determining someone’s income is no simple thing. People can claim all sorts of losses that offset whatever shows up on a w2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just curious if you have heard about this new proposed law for DC. Basically if you were to receive a ticket from a traffic camera you would get a $100 fine. If you can prove that you have a lower Household income, the price you would have to pay would be on a sliding scale. My ticket could be $100, yours could be $20.

More controversially, Mayor Bowser wants to use more than a half-billion dollars worth of revenue from a planned expansion of traffic cameras — which target speeding, red light-running, stop sign violations, and more — to help close the four-year budget gap. Under a traffic safety plan approved by the D.C. Council, the number of cameras across the city is expected to leap from 140 now to almost 500 in the coming years. But Bowser is also creating a task force to consider options of how to mitigate the cost of steep traffic camera fines on low-income drivers (including a possible sliding scale of fines depending on income) ...

I am of the camp that says "do the crime, pay the time". Why should people that break the law be treated defiantly based on income?

Thoughts?

They won't pay the tickets if they are $5, $10, or $100. Just like they jump fares at Metro stations and take what they want from stores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is hilariously impractical. The city will find it all but impossible to verify people’s incomes.

Determining someone’s income is no simple thing. People can claim all sorts of losses that offset whatever shows up on a w2

Well a whole bunch of countries do it so maybe it's not as hard as you make out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is hilariously impractical. The city will find it all but impossible to verify people’s incomes.

Determining someone’s income is no simple thing. People can claim all sorts of losses that offset whatever shows up on a w2

Well a whole bunch of countries do it so maybe it's not as hard as you make out?

Do those countries have the same crazy complicated tax code as the US? Probably not

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fines don't just happen, though. They can be avoided by... following the law. If the fine would be too expensive, don't commit the crime. No one HAS TO drive over the speed limit or run red lights. It's a choice, and not a legitimate one.

Do you realize how stupid this argument is? We judge punishment according to what we think is fair or just. You can make this sort of lazy unthinking excuse for any level of punishment. Just don't commit the crime... no problem. Obviously there is a fine level you would feel is unjust... just like everyone else. You just disagree.

No, actually. I don't see how fines that are entirely avoidable need to made easier to bear for people who would have trouble paying them. This is entirely bass ackwards. The fines are a deterrent. Don't make reckless driving more affordable!!

Set-dollar-amount fines are not a deterrent if you have a lot of money and don't mind spending it on fines. They're only a deterrent for people who don't have a lot of money.

But none of those people have any business driving like maniacs. Let's eliminate as many as we can and figure out how to deter the others. This is nuts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is hilariously impractical. The city will find it all but impossible to verify people’s incomes.

Determining someone’s income is no simple thing. People can claim all sorts of losses that offset whatever shows up on a w2

Well a whole bunch of countries do it so maybe it's not as hard as you make out?

Do they use crazy schemes like 1% of W2 income?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please help me understand your logic. If I am ticketed for speeding, I should receive a fine. If you are ticketed for the same violation, you should receive a fine. All good on that logic? Now if I make $100K a year and get a fine of $1000 and you make $50K a year and pay $500 for the same exact traffic violation, is that fair?

BTW, the District of Columbia’s Revised Criminal Code Act of 2022 was ridiculous at best. Even President Biden said he would veto DC's crime bill.

According to the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, carjackings in the District have increased by 76% compared to this time last year. Total property crime is up 24%. And homicides are up 17%. In fact, D.C. is currently on track to have the most homicides since 1995.

The D.C. Council’s legislation eliminates almost all of the mandatory minimum sentencing requirements for violent crimes while drastically reducing the maximum penalties allowable to the courts.

BUT, the DC Counsel is considering a sliding scale of fines (based on Income/wealth) for simple speeding tickets caught on city cameras? At the same time DC is saying (basically) take it easy on the really bad guys? I just don't understand...

If you get a fine that's 1% of your income, and I get a fine that's 1% of my income for the exact same violation, then yes, that's fair.

If I get a fine that's 1% of my income, and you get a fine for the exact same violation that's only 0.5% of your income, is that fair?

No. It is not fair. If you break the law, you get a fine for minor violations or misdemeanors. Obviously, fines and jail time go up for felony convictions. The law should be blind on all accounts. Same fines for all and same jail sentences to those who commit equal crimes.

They are the same fines: 1% of the person's income.

How would the DMV get information on the person's income?

By requiring the person to provide it, with documentation. How does the DMV get information on a person's identity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please help me understand your logic. If I am ticketed for speeding, I should receive a fine. If you are ticketed for the same violation, you should receive a fine. All good on that logic? Now if I make $100K a year and get a fine of $1000 and you make $50K a year and pay $500 for the same exact traffic violation, is that fair?

BTW, the District of Columbia’s Revised Criminal Code Act of 2022 was ridiculous at best. Even President Biden said he would veto DC's crime bill.

According to the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, carjackings in the District have increased by 76% compared to this time last year. Total property crime is up 24%. And homicides are up 17%. In fact, D.C. is currently on track to have the most homicides since 1995.

The D.C. Council’s legislation eliminates almost all of the mandatory minimum sentencing requirements for violent crimes while drastically reducing the maximum penalties allowable to the courts.

BUT, the DC Counsel is considering a sliding scale of fines (based on Income/wealth) for simple speeding tickets caught on city cameras? At the same time DC is saying (basically) take it easy on the really bad guys? I just don't understand...

If you get a fine that's 1% of your income, and I get a fine that's 1% of my income for the exact same violation, then yes, that's fair.

If I get a fine that's 1% of my income, and you get a fine for the exact same violation that's only 0.5% of your income, is that fair?

No. It is not fair. If you break the law, you get a fine for minor violations or misdemeanors. Obviously, fines and jail time go up for felony convictions. The law should be blind on all accounts. Same fines for all and same jail sentences to those who commit equal crimes.

They are the same fines: 1% of the person's income.

How would the DMV get information on the person's income?

By requiring the person to provide it, with documentation. How does the DMV get information on a person's identity?

This is crazy. People who work at the DMV are not friggin accountants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please help me understand your logic. If I am ticketed for speeding, I should receive a fine. If you are ticketed for the same violation, you should receive a fine. All good on that logic? Now if I make $100K a year and get a fine of $1000 and you make $50K a year and pay $500 for the same exact traffic violation, is that fair?

BTW, the District of Columbia’s Revised Criminal Code Act of 2022 was ridiculous at best. Even President Biden said he would veto DC's crime bill.

According to the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, carjackings in the District have increased by 76% compared to this time last year. Total property crime is up 24%. And homicides are up 17%. In fact, D.C. is currently on track to have the most homicides since 1995.

The D.C. Council’s legislation eliminates almost all of the mandatory minimum sentencing requirements for violent crimes while drastically reducing the maximum penalties allowable to the courts.

BUT, the DC Counsel is considering a sliding scale of fines (based on Income/wealth) for simple speeding tickets caught on city cameras? At the same time DC is saying (basically) take it easy on the really bad guys? I just don't understand...

If you get a fine that's 1% of your income, and I get a fine that's 1% of my income for the exact same violation, then yes, that's fair.

If I get a fine that's 1% of my income, and you get a fine for the exact same violation that's only 0.5% of your income, is that fair?

No. It is not fair. If you break the law, you get a fine for minor violations or misdemeanors. Obviously, fines and jail time go up for felony convictions. The law should be blind on all accounts. Same fines for all and same jail sentences to those who commit equal crimes.

They are the same fines: 1% of the person's income.

How would the DMV get information on the person's income?

By requiring the person to provide it, with documentation. How does the DMV get information on a person's identity?

This is crazy. People who work at the DMV are not friggin accountants.

Right, they are people who check required documents to make sure the documents provide the information that is required. Nobody is asking them to be accountants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please help me understand your logic. If I am ticketed for speeding, I should receive a fine. If you are ticketed for the same violation, you should receive a fine. All good on that logic? Now if I make $100K a year and get a fine of $1000 and you make $50K a year and pay $500 for the same exact traffic violation, is that fair?

BTW, the District of Columbia’s Revised Criminal Code Act of 2022 was ridiculous at best. Even President Biden said he would veto DC's crime bill.

According to the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, carjackings in the District have increased by 76% compared to this time last year. Total property crime is up 24%. And homicides are up 17%. In fact, D.C. is currently on track to have the most homicides since 1995.

The D.C. Council’s legislation eliminates almost all of the mandatory minimum sentencing requirements for violent crimes while drastically reducing the maximum penalties allowable to the courts.

BUT, the DC Counsel is considering a sliding scale of fines (based on Income/wealth) for simple speeding tickets caught on city cameras? At the same time DC is saying (basically) take it easy on the really bad guys? I just don't understand...

If you get a fine that's 1% of your income, and I get a fine that's 1% of my income for the exact same violation, then yes, that's fair.

If I get a fine that's 1% of my income, and you get a fine for the exact same violation that's only 0.5% of your income, is that fair?

No. It is not fair. If you break the law, you get a fine for minor violations or misdemeanors. Obviously, fines and jail time go up for felony convictions. The law should be blind on all accounts. Same fines for all and same jail sentences to those who commit equal crimes.

They are the same fines: 1% of the person's income.

How would the DMV get information on the person's income?

By requiring the person to provide it, with documentation. How does the DMV get information on a person's identity?

LOL who would verify that?

Yeah you kind of need to think through 1) what "income" are you talking about?, 2) how would the DMV know a person's income in order to assess the appropriate fine, 3) what would be the documentation you are talking about? A W2 form? 4) how would that form be validated, and by whom?

You seem to be suggesting that a person gets a ticket, and then must somehow provide income documentation to DMV. DMV checks whether this income is valid (don't know how) and provides you with a fine level.

It's cumbersome, would require more bureaucracy, probably wouldn't work well in DC, and doesn't ponder anything about people who may have a hard time proving their income one way or another. It's ripe for fraud, and in that sense probably won't have the impact intended. And that's even assuming enforcement happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please help me understand your logic. If I am ticketed for speeding, I should receive a fine. If you are ticketed for the same violation, you should receive a fine. All good on that logic? Now if I make $100K a year and get a fine of $1000 and you make $50K a year and pay $500 for the same exact traffic violation, is that fair?

BTW, the District of Columbia’s Revised Criminal Code Act of 2022 was ridiculous at best. Even President Biden said he would veto DC's crime bill.

According to the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, carjackings in the District have increased by 76% compared to this time last year. Total property crime is up 24%. And homicides are up 17%. In fact, D.C. is currently on track to have the most homicides since 1995.

The D.C. Council’s legislation eliminates almost all of the mandatory minimum sentencing requirements for violent crimes while drastically reducing the maximum penalties allowable to the courts.

BUT, the DC Counsel is considering a sliding scale of fines (based on Income/wealth) for simple speeding tickets caught on city cameras? At the same time DC is saying (basically) take it easy on the really bad guys? I just don't understand...

If you get a fine that's 1% of your income, and I get a fine that's 1% of my income for the exact same violation, then yes, that's fair.

If I get a fine that's 1% of my income, and you get a fine for the exact same violation that's only 0.5% of your income, is that fair?

No. It is not fair. If you break the law, you get a fine for minor violations or misdemeanors. Obviously, fines and jail time go up for felony convictions. The law should be blind on all accounts. Same fines for all and same jail sentences to those who commit equal crimes.

They are the same fines: 1% of the person's income.

How would the DMV get information on the person's income?

By requiring the person to provide it, with documentation. How does the DMV get information on a person's identity?

This is crazy. People who work at the DMV are not friggin accountants.

Right, they are people who check required documents to make sure the documents provide the information that is required. Nobody is asking them to be accountants.

And yet they are — that’s the problem. Determining someone’s income is hard. People have complicated situations. It’s hard for the IRS. It will be impossible for the DMV.