why is russia friendly with belarus but not ukraine?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing Saddam to Putin probably isn’t the winning argument you seem to think.

I'm not comparing Putin to Saddam. I'm comparing a falsehood-inspired hysteria against Saddam and the terrible consequences it visited upon Iraq to the current discourse about Putin.

But you probably think the war in Iraq is a forgivable indiscretion because it's not like the bomb came down on your own house. Half a million dead brown people, meh, who cares. Let's weep for the blue-eyed instead.

The war in iraq was wrong. but you obviously know two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the United States has done bad things doesn't mean that Putin isn't an idiot who should have known better and who is obviously in the wrong.

That may all be true but what would you respond to Putin saying - hey, your president, too, invaded another country, that doesn't even share a border with you, for stupid made-up reasons, killed half a million people, and nothing really bad happened to him or your country. So why do you say I'm not allowed to do the same?

jeesh... I'd say exactly the same thing I said to you. Two wrongs don't make a right, and why on earth would you punish Ukraine for something the US did? and anyway he is not invading Ukraine in retaliation for Iraq, he is invading Ukraine because he is a greedy sob.

Well we don’t really know why the US invaded Iraq, but there is no good answer to the question of why some countries are allowed to invade others and some are not. The invasion of Iraq was a lot more gruesome with a much higher body count, yet nothing happened to the government that led the invasion of the people of its country. In fact, I’m sure you’d be bubbling with rage if anyone suggested that American people ought to be denied visas or bank accounts due to the actions of their government. Why is that ? Are Iraqis less sympathetic ? Less relatable? Legitimate prey? Why did the world not weep for Iraqis the way it wept for Ukrainians? Because their invader is more powerful?

This line of thought is just so odd to me. Thing A was really bad and I'm upset about it so therefore Thing B that is really bad is ok? If you cared about Iraq then you should care about Ukraine. If you were upset about Iraq then you should be upset about Ukraine.

I’m upset about Ukraine. I’m upset about the hypocrisy too. No one here was upset about the dead Iraqis either.

The more accurate representation would be “the guy who got away scot free after doing Thing A is now lecturing the world about the evil of Thing B, which is a smaller version of Thing A but done but someone else.”

Such American parochialism and self indulgence. You want to centre this conflict about being about the US but the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not taking place in America and its greatest impact is on people far beyond American shores. I'm from Europe and, as you are well aware, the vast majority of European countries did not support the invasion of Iraq. In fact, millions across Europe demonstrated against the Iraq invasion. We weren't happy about dead Iraqis. You can self-flagellate over your hypocrisy but people right now are starving due to wheat shortages across north Africa. And many of those same Europeans who did not support the invasion of Iraq face a pretty dismal winter. Please get over your hypocrisy and just learn from it.

Europe is facing a dismal winter due to sanctions, which were a choice. It's a bit much to take deliberate measures to hurt a country and expect no retaliation.

If people are dying from wheat shortages across North Africa, why did most grain shipments from Ukraine's ports went to places that weren't in Africa?

Hypocrisy is alive and well if you are saying this about Europe’s willingness to sanction Russia for its invasion of Ukraine and do not think that it applies to Russia in the first analysis.

Well it is a garden and the rest of the world is a jungle that wants to invade, so...

“Europe is a garden. We have built a garden… The rest of the world… is not exactly a garden. Most of the rest of the world is a jungle. The jungle could invade the garden. The gardeners should take care of it."

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-719895

[Anonymous]

In other news, Ukraine's parliament passed a resolution recognizing The Independent Republic of Itchkeria (which no longer exists btw) as the territory temporarily occupied by Russia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can someone remind me…
When the US went into Iraq, did we bomb all of their infrastructure and rape their children? Did we just destroy the place and roll out?
Can’t recall

Oh, the lady wants reminders. OK...

Since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects. Similar birth defects were reported in other populations exposed to war contaminants.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037062/

Between October 1994 and October 1995, the number of birth defects per 1,000 live births in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 1.37. In 2003, the number of birth defects in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 23 per 1,000 live births. Within less than a decade, the occurrence of congenital birth defects increased by an astonishing 17-fold in the same hospital. A yearly account of the occurrence and types of birth defects, between 2003 and 2011, in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital, was reported. Metal levels in hair, toenail, and tooth samples of residents of Al Basrah were also provided. The enamel portion of the deciduous tooth from a child with birth defects from Al Basrah (4.19 μg/g) had nearly three times higher lead than the whole teeth of children living in unimpacted areas. Lead was 1.4 times higher in the tooth enamel of parents of children with birth defects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464374/

Civilian infrastructure, you say:

Former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, Denis Halliday, who resigned from the position in disgust in 1998, contends that epidemics of cholera, dysentery and hepatitis that have plagued Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War were the direct result of the US deliberately targeting Iraq’s infrastructure. He cites a recently released declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency document from the start of the conflict, pointing out Iraq’s vulnerable water situation. The document predicted that the shortage of pure drinking water resulting from the bombing of infrastructure could “lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease”.

“I think there’s no doubt whatsoever that the Americans had worked out the vulnerability of Iraq in terms of clean fresh water,” Halliday said. “So they set about destroying electrical power capacity, which is essential, of course, for the treatment and distribution of water.”

Halliday estimated that by 1999 the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and UN sanctions had directly caused the deaths of 600,000 children and 500,000 adults through malnutrition and disease. Tens of thousands more people, military and civilian, were killed in the US-led military assault. What will be the cost in human suffering of Washington’s next criminal venture in the Gulf?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/11/iraq-n04.html

During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed by the US-UK coalition.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/the-impact-of-the-war-on-terror-on-iraq-state-economy-and-civilian-deaths/
The mass killings of Iraqis commenced on 19 March 2003, with the ‘shock and awe’ bombing of Baghdad. Millions sat transfixed before their TV screens, watching as bombs and missiles exploded. The reports came with the warning that they contained flashing images. True enough, the sky over Baghdad flashed orange and golden, the sounds of war filling our ears. The narrative of terror that began that day was to last for years: terror from the sky, terror on the ground, terror from the foreign soldier, terror from one’s neighbour.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

I mean, really. Should I go on?

So the US targeted infrastructure during the first war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Yeah that’s tough. Don’t invade your neighbor I guess.

I'm just gonna let it sit here that your response to:

"During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed in by the US-UK coalition."

was "yeah that's tough."

NP. 2000 children died over 14 years due to US/UK coalition actions? Almost 1000 Ukrainian children have been killed by Russian attacks in the last 8 months. 3 million children inside Ukraine and 2.2 million children outside Ukraine need humanitarian assistance. Russians have deliberately bombed hospitals and schools. 2 out of every 3 Ukrainian kids have been displaced.

And your argument is what? — that because children in one conflict weren’t sufficiently protected, we should close our eyes to this and let children suffer similarly? The US did an f’d up thing by providing false justification for war in Iraq, but is that really justification for Putin to invade Ukraine (a second time)?

I am amazed that the main argument on this thread is - the world failed to protect civilians before so why should the world do it now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can someone remind me…
When the US went into Iraq, did we bomb all of their infrastructure and rape their children? Did we just destroy the place and roll out?
Can’t recall

Oh, the lady wants reminders. OK...

Since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects. Similar birth defects were reported in other populations exposed to war contaminants.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037062/

Between October 1994 and October 1995, the number of birth defects per 1,000 live births in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 1.37. In 2003, the number of birth defects in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 23 per 1,000 live births. Within less than a decade, the occurrence of congenital birth defects increased by an astonishing 17-fold in the same hospital. A yearly account of the occurrence and types of birth defects, between 2003 and 2011, in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital, was reported. Metal levels in hair, toenail, and tooth samples of residents of Al Basrah were also provided. The enamel portion of the deciduous tooth from a child with birth defects from Al Basrah (4.19 μg/g) had nearly three times higher lead than the whole teeth of children living in unimpacted areas. Lead was 1.4 times higher in the tooth enamel of parents of children with birth defects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464374/

Civilian infrastructure, you say:

Former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, Denis Halliday, who resigned from the position in disgust in 1998, contends that epidemics of cholera, dysentery and hepatitis that have plagued Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War were the direct result of the US deliberately targeting Iraq’s infrastructure. He cites a recently released declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency document from the start of the conflict, pointing out Iraq’s vulnerable water situation. The document predicted that the shortage of pure drinking water resulting from the bombing of infrastructure could “lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease”.

“I think there’s no doubt whatsoever that the Americans had worked out the vulnerability of Iraq in terms of clean fresh water,” Halliday said. “So they set about destroying electrical power capacity, which is essential, of course, for the treatment and distribution of water.”

Halliday estimated that by 1999 the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and UN sanctions had directly caused the deaths of 600,000 children and 500,000 adults through malnutrition and disease. Tens of thousands more people, military and civilian, were killed in the US-led military assault. What will be the cost in human suffering of Washington’s next criminal venture in the Gulf?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/11/iraq-n04.html

During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed by the US-UK coalition.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/the-impact-of-the-war-on-terror-on-iraq-state-economy-and-civilian-deaths/
The mass killings of Iraqis commenced on 19 March 2003, with the ‘shock and awe’ bombing of Baghdad. Millions sat transfixed before their TV screens, watching as bombs and missiles exploded. The reports came with the warning that they contained flashing images. True enough, the sky over Baghdad flashed orange and golden, the sounds of war filling our ears. The narrative of terror that began that day was to last for years: terror from the sky, terror on the ground, terror from the foreign soldier, terror from one’s neighbour.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

I mean, really. Should I go on?

So the US targeted infrastructure during the first war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Yeah that’s tough. Don’t invade your neighbor I guess.

I'm just gonna let it sit here that your response to:

"During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed in by the US-UK coalition."

was "yeah that's tough."

NP. 2000 children died over 14 years due to US/UK coalition actions? Almost 1000 Ukrainian children have been killed by Russian attacks in the last 8 months. 3 million children inside Ukraine and 2.2 million children outside Ukraine need humanitarian assistance. Russians have deliberately bombed hospitals and schools. 2 out of every 3 Ukrainian kids have been displaced.

And your argument is what? — that because children in one conflict weren’t sufficiently protected, we should close our eyes to this and let children suffer similarly? The US did an f’d up thing by providing false justification for war in Iraq, but is that really justification for Putin to invade Ukraine (a second time)?

I am amazed that the main argument on this thread is - the world failed to protect civilians before so why should the world do it now?

Putin intends to deprive all men, eomen snd children in Ukraine of heat, electricity snd treated water. He intends to create a humanitarian disaster to force a surrender of sovereignty. Meanwhile Kevin McCarthy isn’t convinced Ukrainian lives are worth saving. Let’s hope Ukrainian nationss add us snd their supporters mobilize to protest in front of the RNC and Capitol Hill Clun before Congress adjourns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can someone remind me…
When the US went into Iraq, did we bomb all of their infrastructure and rape their children? Did we just destroy the place and roll out?
Can’t recall

Oh, the lady wants reminders. OK...

Since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects. Similar birth defects were reported in other populations exposed to war contaminants.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037062/

Between October 1994 and October 1995, the number of birth defects per 1,000 live births in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 1.37. In 2003, the number of birth defects in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 23 per 1,000 live births. Within less than a decade, the occurrence of congenital birth defects increased by an astonishing 17-fold in the same hospital. A yearly account of the occurrence and types of birth defects, between 2003 and 2011, in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital, was reported. Metal levels in hair, toenail, and tooth samples of residents of Al Basrah were also provided. The enamel portion of the deciduous tooth from a child with birth defects from Al Basrah (4.19 μg/g) had nearly three times higher lead than the whole teeth of children living in unimpacted areas. Lead was 1.4 times higher in the tooth enamel of parents of children with birth defects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464374/

Civilian infrastructure, you say:

Former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, Denis Halliday, who resigned from the position in disgust in 1998, contends that epidemics of cholera, dysentery and hepatitis that have plagued Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War were the direct result of the US deliberately targeting Iraq’s infrastructure. He cites a recently released declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency document from the start of the conflict, pointing out Iraq’s vulnerable water situation. The document predicted that the shortage of pure drinking water resulting from the bombing of infrastructure could “lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease”.

“I think there’s no doubt whatsoever that the Americans had worked out the vulnerability of Iraq in terms of clean fresh water,” Halliday said. “So they set about destroying electrical power capacity, which is essential, of course, for the treatment and distribution of water.”

Halliday estimated that by 1999 the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and UN sanctions had directly caused the deaths of 600,000 children and 500,000 adults through malnutrition and disease. Tens of thousands more people, military and civilian, were killed in the US-led military assault. What will be the cost in human suffering of Washington’s next criminal venture in the Gulf?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/11/iraq-n04.html

During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed by the US-UK coalition.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/the-impact-of-the-war-on-terror-on-iraq-state-economy-and-civilian-deaths/
The mass killings of Iraqis commenced on 19 March 2003, with the ‘shock and awe’ bombing of Baghdad. Millions sat transfixed before their TV screens, watching as bombs and missiles exploded. The reports came with the warning that they contained flashing images. True enough, the sky over Baghdad flashed orange and golden, the sounds of war filling our ears. The narrative of terror that began that day was to last for years: terror from the sky, terror on the ground, terror from the foreign soldier, terror from one’s neighbour.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

I mean, really. Should I go on?

So the US targeted infrastructure during the first war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Yeah that’s tough. Don’t invade your neighbor I guess.

I'm just gonna let it sit here that your response to:

"During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed in by the US-UK coalition."

was "yeah that's tough."

NP. 2000 children died over 14 years due to US/UK coalition actions? Almost 1000 Ukrainian children have been killed by Russian attacks in the last 8 months. 3 million children inside Ukraine and 2.2 million children outside Ukraine need humanitarian assistance. Russians have deliberately bombed hospitals and schools. 2 out of every 3 Ukrainian kids have been displaced.

And your argument is what? — that because children in one conflict weren’t sufficiently protected, we should close our eyes to this and let children suffer similarly? The US did an f’d up thing by providing false justification for war in Iraq, but is that really justification for Putin to invade Ukraine (a second time)?

I am amazed that the main argument on this thread is - the world failed to protect civilians before so why should the world do it now?

Do you really want me to count displaced Iraqi children?

Is it so wrong to want all invaders to be treated equally?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing Saddam to Putin probably isn’t the winning argument you seem to think.

I'm not comparing Putin to Saddam. I'm comparing a falsehood-inspired hysteria against Saddam and the terrible consequences it visited upon Iraq to the current discourse about Putin.

But you probably think the war in Iraq is a forgivable indiscretion because it's not like the bomb came down on your own house. Half a million dead brown people, meh, who cares. Let's weep for the blue-eyed instead.

The war in iraq was wrong. but you obviously know two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the United States has done bad things doesn't mean that Putin isn't an idiot who should have known better and who is obviously in the wrong.

That may all be true but what would you respond to Putin saying - hey, your president, too, invaded another country, that doesn't even share a border with you, for stupid made-up reasons, killed half a million people, and nothing really bad happened to him or your country. So why do you say I'm not allowed to do the same?

jeesh... I'd say exactly the same thing I said to you. Two wrongs don't make a right, and why on earth would you punish Ukraine for something the US did? and anyway he is not invading Ukraine in retaliation for Iraq, he is invading Ukraine because he is a greedy sob.

Well we don’t really know why the US invaded Iraq, but there is no good answer to the question of why some countries are allowed to invade others and some are not. The invasion of Iraq was a lot more gruesome with a much higher body count, yet nothing happened to the government that led the invasion of the people of its country. In fact, I’m sure you’d be bubbling with rage if anyone suggested that American people ought to be denied visas or bank accounts due to the actions of their government. Why is that ? Are Iraqis less sympathetic ? Less relatable? Legitimate prey? Why did the world not weep for Iraqis the way it wept for Ukrainians? Because their invader is more powerful?

This line of thought is just so odd to me. Thing A was really bad and I'm upset about it so therefore Thing B that is really bad is ok? If you cared about Iraq then you should care about Ukraine. If you were upset about Iraq then you should be upset about Ukraine.

I’m upset about Ukraine. I’m upset about the hypocrisy too. No one here was upset about the dead Iraqis either.

The more accurate representation would be “the guy who got away scot free after doing Thing A is now lecturing the world about the evil of Thing B, which is a smaller version of Thing A but done but someone else.”

You're defending Russia. So no you do not care about Ulraine. You probably don't care about Iraq either to tell the truth. This isn't about the United States in any way. It's just strange that you're trying to claim that what Russia is doing to Ukraine is good because the United States is bad.

I never defended Russia or said what it's doing to Ukraine is good. I simply pinpointed the amazing, show-stopping American hypocrisy and deliberate blindness to the much greater damage it caused elsewhere in a very similar scenario.

You never said it was bad either.

Seems pretty irrelevent then don't it? In a thread asking about Russia's relationship with Belarus in comparison to Russia's genocidal war of choice and conquest in Ukraine you're talking about the United States for some unknown reason.

[Anonymous]

The false equivalence poster is earning their kopeks tonight. Maybe even an extra bag of potatoes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing Saddam to Putin probably isn’t the winning argument you seem to think.

I'm not comparing Putin to Saddam. I'm comparing a falsehood-inspired hysteria against Saddam and the terrible consequences it visited upon Iraq to the current discourse about Putin.

But you probably think the war in Iraq is a forgivable indiscretion because it's not like the bomb came down on your own house. Half a million dead brown people, meh, who cares. Let's weep for the blue-eyed instead.

The war in iraq was wrong. but you obviously know two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the United States has done bad things doesn't mean that Putin isn't an idiot who should have known better and who is obviously in the wrong.

That may all be true but what would you respond to Putin saying - hey, your president, too, invaded another country, that doesn't even share a border with you, for stupid made-up reasons, killed half a million people, and nothing really bad happened to him or your country. So why do you say I'm not allowed to do the same?

jeesh... I'd say exactly the same thing I said to you. Two wrongs don't make a right, and why on earth would you punish Ukraine for something the US did? and anyway he is not invading Ukraine in retaliation for Iraq, he is invading Ukraine because he is a greedy sob.

Well we don’t really know why the US invaded Iraq, but there is no good answer to the question of why some countries are allowed to invade others and some are not. The invasion of Iraq was a lot more gruesome with a much higher body count, yet nothing happened to the government that led the invasion of the people of its country. In fact, I’m sure you’d be bubbling with rage if anyone suggested that American people ought to be denied visas or bank accounts due to the actions of their government. Why is that ? Are Iraqis less sympathetic ? Less relatable? Legitimate prey? Why did the world not weep for Iraqis the way it wept for Ukrainians? Because their invader is more powerful?

This line of thought is just so odd to me. Thing A was really bad and I'm upset about it so therefore Thing B that is really bad is ok? If you cared about Iraq then you should care about Ukraine. If you were upset about Iraq then you should be upset about Ukraine.

I’m upset about Ukraine. I’m upset about the hypocrisy too. No one here was upset about the dead Iraqis either.

The more accurate representation would be “the guy who got away scot free after doing Thing A is now lecturing the world about the evil of Thing B, which is a smaller version of Thing A but done but someone else.”

You're defending Russia. So no you do not care about Ulraine. You probably don't care about Iraq either to tell the truth. This isn't about the United States in any way. It's just strange that you're trying to claim that what Russia is doing to Ukraine is good because the United States is bad.

I never defended Russia or said what it's doing to Ukraine is good. I simply pinpointed the amazing, show-stopping American hypocrisy and deliberate blindness to the much greater damage it caused elsewhere in a very similar scenario.

You never said it was bad either.

Seems pretty irrelevent then don't it? In a thread asking about Russia's relationship with Belarus in comparison to Russia's genocidal war of choice and conquest in Ukraine you're talking about the United States for some unknown reason.

Yes because thread drift on DCUM never happened lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing Saddam to Putin probably isn’t the winning argument you seem to think.

I'm not comparing Putin to Saddam. I'm comparing a falsehood-inspired hysteria against Saddam and the terrible consequences it visited upon Iraq to the current discourse about Putin.

But you probably think the war in Iraq is a forgivable indiscretion because it's not like the bomb came down on your own house. Half a million dead brown people, meh, who cares. Let's weep for the blue-eyed instead.

The war in iraq was wrong. but you obviously know two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the United States has done bad things doesn't mean that Putin isn't an idiot who should have known better and who is obviously in the wrong.

That may all be true but what would you respond to Putin saying - hey, your president, too, invaded another country, that doesn't even share a border with you, for stupid made-up reasons, killed half a million people, and nothing really bad happened to him or your country. So why do you say I'm not allowed to do the same?

jeesh... I'd say exactly the same thing I said to you. Two wrongs don't make a right, and why on earth would you punish Ukraine for something the US did? and anyway he is not invading Ukraine in retaliation for Iraq, he is invading Ukraine because he is a greedy sob.

Well we don’t really know why the US invaded Iraq, but there is no good answer to the question of why some countries are allowed to invade others and some are not. The invasion of Iraq was a lot more gruesome with a much higher body count, yet nothing happened to the government that led the invasion of the people of its country. In fact, I’m sure you’d be bubbling with rage if anyone suggested that American people ought to be denied visas or bank accounts due to the actions of their government. Why is that ? Are Iraqis less sympathetic ? Less relatable? Legitimate prey? Why did the world not weep for Iraqis the way it wept for Ukrainians? Because their invader is more powerful?

This line of thought is just so odd to me. Thing A was really bad and I'm upset about it so therefore Thing B that is really bad is ok? If you cared about Iraq then you should care about Ukraine. If you were upset about Iraq then you should be upset about Ukraine.

I’m upset about Ukraine. I’m upset about the hypocrisy too. No one here was upset about the dead Iraqis either.

The more accurate representation would be “the guy who got away scot free after doing Thing A is now lecturing the world about the evil of Thing B, which is a smaller version of Thing A but done but someone else.”

You're defending Russia. So no you do not care about Ulraine. You probably don't care about Iraq either to tell the truth. This isn't about the United States in any way. It's just strange that you're trying to claim that what Russia is doing to Ukraine is good because the United States is bad.

I never defended Russia or said what it's doing to Ukraine is good. I simply pinpointed the amazing, show-stopping American hypocrisy and deliberate blindness to the much greater damage it caused elsewhere in a very similar scenario.

You never said it was bad either.

Seems pretty irrelevent then don't it? In a thread asking about Russia's relationship with Belarus in comparison to Russia's genocidal war of choice and conquest in Ukraine you're talking about the United States for some unknown reason.

Well you didn't ever say that the American invasion of Iraq was a war of choice and conquest that was just as criminal and genocidal so here we are. You, for some odd reason, insist on describing it as "oops we made a mistake".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing Saddam to Putin probably isn’t the winning argument you seem to think.

I'm not comparing Putin to Saddam. I'm comparing a falsehood-inspired hysteria against Saddam and the terrible consequences it visited upon Iraq to the current discourse about Putin.

But you probably think the war in Iraq is a forgivable indiscretion because it's not like the bomb came down on your own house. Half a million dead brown people, meh, who cares. Let's weep for the blue-eyed instead.

The war in iraq was wrong. but you obviously know two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the United States has done bad things doesn't mean that Putin isn't an idiot who should have known better and who is obviously in the wrong.

That may all be true but what would you respond to Putin saying - hey, your president, too, invaded another country, that doesn't even share a border with you, for stupid made-up reasons, killed half a million people, and nothing really bad happened to him or your country. So why do you say I'm not allowed to do the same?

jeesh... I'd say exactly the same thing I said to you. Two wrongs don't make a right, and why on earth would you punish Ukraine for something the US did? and anyway he is not invading Ukraine in retaliation for Iraq, he is invading Ukraine because he is a greedy sob.

Well we don’t really know why the US invaded Iraq, but there is no good answer to the question of why some countries are allowed to invade others and some are not. The invasion of Iraq was a lot more gruesome with a much higher body count, yet nothing happened to the government that led the invasion of the people of its country. In fact, I’m sure you’d be bubbling with rage if anyone suggested that American people ought to be denied visas or bank accounts due to the actions of their government. Why is that ? Are Iraqis less sympathetic ? Less relatable? Legitimate prey? Why did the world not weep for Iraqis the way it wept for Ukrainians? Because their invader is more powerful?

This line of thought is just so odd to me. Thing A was really bad and I'm upset about it so therefore Thing B that is really bad is ok? If you cared about Iraq then you should care about Ukraine. If you were upset about Iraq then you should be upset about Ukraine.

I’m upset about Ukraine. I’m upset about the hypocrisy too. No one here was upset about the dead Iraqis either.

The more accurate representation would be “the guy who got away scot free after doing Thing A is now lecturing the world about the evil of Thing B, which is a smaller version of Thing A but done but someone else.”

You're defending Russia. So no you do not care about Ulraine. You probably don't care about Iraq either to tell the truth. This isn't about the United States in any way. It's just strange that you're trying to claim that what Russia is doing to Ukraine is good because the United States is bad.

I never defended Russia or said what it's doing to Ukraine is good. I simply pinpointed the amazing, show-stopping American hypocrisy and deliberate blindness to the much greater damage it caused elsewhere in a very similar scenario.

You never said it was bad either.

Seems pretty irrelevent then don't it? In a thread asking about Russia's relationship with Belarus in comparison to Russia's genocidal war of choice and conquest in Ukraine you're talking about the United States for some unknown reason.

Well you didn't ever say that the American invasion of Iraq was a war of choice and conquest that was just as criminal and genocidal so here we are. You, for some odd reason, insist on describing it as "oops we made a mistake".

The same "mistake" we made in Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Vietnam and a dozen other smaller conflicts that have fallen off our radar. For a time it seemed that drone strikes on wedding parties was going to replace baseball as the national past-time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can someone remind me…
When the US went into Iraq, did we bomb all of their infrastructure and rape their children? Did we just destroy the place and roll out?
Can’t recall

Oh, the lady wants reminders. OK...

Since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects. Similar birth defects were reported in other populations exposed to war contaminants.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037062/

Between October 1994 and October 1995, the number of birth defects per 1,000 live births in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 1.37. In 2003, the number of birth defects in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 23 per 1,000 live births. Within less than a decade, the occurrence of congenital birth defects increased by an astonishing 17-fold in the same hospital. A yearly account of the occurrence and types of birth defects, between 2003 and 2011, in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital, was reported. Metal levels in hair, toenail, and tooth samples of residents of Al Basrah were also provided. The enamel portion of the deciduous tooth from a child with birth defects from Al Basrah (4.19 μg/g) had nearly three times higher lead than the whole teeth of children living in unimpacted areas. Lead was 1.4 times higher in the tooth enamel of parents of children with birth defects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464374/

Civilian infrastructure, you say:

Former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, Denis Halliday, who resigned from the position in disgust in 1998, contends that epidemics of cholera, dysentery and hepatitis that have plagued Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War were the direct result of the US deliberately targeting Iraq’s infrastructure. He cites a recently released declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency document from the start of the conflict, pointing out Iraq’s vulnerable water situation. The document predicted that the shortage of pure drinking water resulting from the bombing of infrastructure could “lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease”.

“I think there’s no doubt whatsoever that the Americans had worked out the vulnerability of Iraq in terms of clean fresh water,” Halliday said. “So they set about destroying electrical power capacity, which is essential, of course, for the treatment and distribution of water.”

Halliday estimated that by 1999 the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and UN sanctions had directly caused the deaths of 600,000 children and 500,000 adults through malnutrition and disease. Tens of thousands more people, military and civilian, were killed in the US-led military assault. What will be the cost in human suffering of Washington’s next criminal venture in the Gulf?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/11/iraq-n04.html

During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed by the US-UK coalition.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/the-impact-of-the-war-on-terror-on-iraq-state-economy-and-civilian-deaths/
The mass killings of Iraqis commenced on 19 March 2003, with the ‘shock and awe’ bombing of Baghdad. Millions sat transfixed before their TV screens, watching as bombs and missiles exploded. The reports came with the warning that they contained flashing images. True enough, the sky over Baghdad flashed orange and golden, the sounds of war filling our ears. The narrative of terror that began that day was to last for years: terror from the sky, terror on the ground, terror from the foreign soldier, terror from one’s neighbour.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

I mean, really. Should I go on?

So the US targeted infrastructure during the first war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Yeah that’s tough. Don’t invade your neighbor I guess.

I'm just gonna let it sit here that your response to:

"During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed in by the US-UK coalition."

was "yeah that's tough."

NP. 2000 children died over 14 years due to US/UK coalition actions? Almost 1000 Ukrainian children have been killed by Russian attacks in the last 8 months. 3 million children inside Ukraine and 2.2 million children outside Ukraine need humanitarian assistance. Russians have deliberately bombed hospitals and schools. 2 out of every 3 Ukrainian kids have been displaced.

And your argument is what? — that because children in one conflict weren’t sufficiently protected, we should close our eyes to this and let children suffer similarly? The US did an f’d up thing by providing false justification for war in Iraq, but is that really justification for Putin to invade Ukraine (a second time)?

I am amazed that the main argument on this thread is - the world failed to protect civilians before so why should the world do it now?

Do you really want me to count displaced Iraqi children?

Is it so wrong to want all invaders to be treated equally?

If your equality argument is we did a crap job at protecting civilians from the invader in X conflict, so we should keep doing a crap job and allow invaders to violate humanitarian law without consequence, then yes, I think it's wrong to work for and support that kind of equality.

This is actually a long-running argument in human rights -- some believe that international law has no meaning if it is not equally applied to all. Others believe that international law is a work in progress and we are building to a world where it applies equally to all, but it's important to take what enforcement is achievable. I am firmly in the latter camp.

Many who were against the creation of the ICTY argued that many war crimes since Nuremburg had not been prosecuted, and so the IntlComm shouldn't create the ICTY. I think the creation of the ICTY and subsequent prosecutions substantially changed the landscape - numerous subsequent tribunals were created and perpetrators were prosecuted. More states have used universal jurisdiction to prosecute perpetrators. This has lead to more attention on such crimes and quicker moves to legal consequences. Is it perfect? Far from it, but I believe this is a small step on the path to creating better human security architecture.

So, while I don't think it's wrong to want all invaders to be treated equally, I do think it is wrong to use past failures to prevent progress in this area. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can someone remind me…
When the US went into Iraq, did we bomb all of their infrastructure and rape their children? Did we just destroy the place and roll out?
Can’t recall

Oh, the lady wants reminders. OK...

Since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects. Similar birth defects were reported in other populations exposed to war contaminants.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037062/

Between October 1994 and October 1995, the number of birth defects per 1,000 live births in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 1.37. In 2003, the number of birth defects in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 23 per 1,000 live births. Within less than a decade, the occurrence of congenital birth defects increased by an astonishing 17-fold in the same hospital. A yearly account of the occurrence and types of birth defects, between 2003 and 2011, in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital, was reported. Metal levels in hair, toenail, and tooth samples of residents of Al Basrah were also provided. The enamel portion of the deciduous tooth from a child with birth defects from Al Basrah (4.19 μg/g) had nearly three times higher lead than the whole teeth of children living in unimpacted areas. Lead was 1.4 times higher in the tooth enamel of parents of children with birth defects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464374/

Civilian infrastructure, you say:

Former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, Denis Halliday, who resigned from the position in disgust in 1998, contends that epidemics of cholera, dysentery and hepatitis that have plagued Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War were the direct result of the US deliberately targeting Iraq’s infrastructure. He cites a recently released declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency document from the start of the conflict, pointing out Iraq’s vulnerable water situation. The document predicted that the shortage of pure drinking water resulting from the bombing of infrastructure could “lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease”.

“I think there’s no doubt whatsoever that the Americans had worked out the vulnerability of Iraq in terms of clean fresh water,” Halliday said. “So they set about destroying electrical power capacity, which is essential, of course, for the treatment and distribution of water.”

Halliday estimated that by 1999 the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and UN sanctions had directly caused the deaths of 600,000 children and 500,000 adults through malnutrition and disease. Tens of thousands more people, military and civilian, were killed in the US-led military assault. What will be the cost in human suffering of Washington’s next criminal venture in the Gulf?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/11/iraq-n04.html

During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed by the US-UK coalition.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/the-impact-of-the-war-on-terror-on-iraq-state-economy-and-civilian-deaths/
The mass killings of Iraqis commenced on 19 March 2003, with the ‘shock and awe’ bombing of Baghdad. Millions sat transfixed before their TV screens, watching as bombs and missiles exploded. The reports came with the warning that they contained flashing images. True enough, the sky over Baghdad flashed orange and golden, the sounds of war filling our ears. The narrative of terror that began that day was to last for years: terror from the sky, terror on the ground, terror from the foreign soldier, terror from one’s neighbour.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

I mean, really. Should I go on?

So the US targeted infrastructure during the first war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Yeah that’s tough. Don’t invade your neighbor I guess.

I'm just gonna let it sit here that your response to:

"During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed in by the US-UK coalition."

was "yeah that's tough."

NP. 2000 children died over 14 years due to US/UK coalition actions? Almost 1000 Ukrainian children have been killed by Russian attacks in the last 8 months. 3 million children inside Ukraine and 2.2 million children outside Ukraine need humanitarian assistance. Russians have deliberately bombed hospitals and schools. 2 out of every 3 Ukrainian kids have been displaced.

And your argument is what? — that because children in one conflict weren’t sufficiently protected, we should close our eyes to this and let children suffer similarly? The US did an f’d up thing by providing false justification for war in Iraq, but is that really justification for Putin to invade Ukraine (a second time)?

I am amazed that the main argument on this thread is - the world failed to protect civilians before so why should the world do it now?

Do you really want me to count displaced Iraqi children?

Is it so wrong to want all invaders to be treated equally?

If your equality argument is we did a crap job at protecting civilians from the invader in X conflict, so we should keep doing a crap job and allow invaders to violate humanitarian law without consequence, then yes, I think it's wrong to work for and support that kind of equality.

This is actually a long-running argument in human rights -- some believe that international law has no meaning if it is not equally applied to all. Others believe that international law is a work in progress and we are building to a world where it applies equally to all, but it's important to take what enforcement is achievable. I am firmly in the latter camp.

It's not really about doing a crap job protecting civilians. It's more about punishing invaders equally for equal sins. I understand your position in support of "work in progress" but it isn't progress when punishment is applied selectively to certain countries but never others.

And of course it's easy to be in the latter camp when you know that no matter what crap thing your government does, no matter which country it chooses to invade, no matter how many civilians it slaughters in collateral damage, no matter how much land it annexes, your bank account will continue working, your credit cards are unaffected, your athletes are still welcome at international competitions, no country can deny you entry, and your job is secure. Do you see what I mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can someone remind me…
When the US went into Iraq, did we bomb all of their infrastructure and rape their children? Did we just destroy the place and roll out?
Can’t recall

Oh, the lady wants reminders. OK...

Since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects. Similar birth defects were reported in other populations exposed to war contaminants.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037062/

Between October 1994 and October 1995, the number of birth defects per 1,000 live births in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 1.37. In 2003, the number of birth defects in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 23 per 1,000 live births. Within less than a decade, the occurrence of congenital birth defects increased by an astonishing 17-fold in the same hospital. A yearly account of the occurrence and types of birth defects, between 2003 and 2011, in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital, was reported. Metal levels in hair, toenail, and tooth samples of residents of Al Basrah were also provided. The enamel portion of the deciduous tooth from a child with birth defects from Al Basrah (4.19 μg/g) had nearly three times higher lead than the whole teeth of children living in unimpacted areas. Lead was 1.4 times higher in the tooth enamel of parents of children with birth defects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464374/

Civilian infrastructure, you say:

Former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, Denis Halliday, who resigned from the position in disgust in 1998, contends that epidemics of cholera, dysentery and hepatitis that have plagued Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War were the direct result of the US deliberately targeting Iraq’s infrastructure. He cites a recently released declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency document from the start of the conflict, pointing out Iraq’s vulnerable water situation. The document predicted that the shortage of pure drinking water resulting from the bombing of infrastructure could “lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease”.

“I think there’s no doubt whatsoever that the Americans had worked out the vulnerability of Iraq in terms of clean fresh water,” Halliday said. “So they set about destroying electrical power capacity, which is essential, of course, for the treatment and distribution of water.”

Halliday estimated that by 1999 the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and UN sanctions had directly caused the deaths of 600,000 children and 500,000 adults through malnutrition and disease. Tens of thousands more people, military and civilian, were killed in the US-led military assault. What will be the cost in human suffering of Washington’s next criminal venture in the Gulf?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/11/iraq-n04.html

During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed by the US-UK coalition.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/the-impact-of-the-war-on-terror-on-iraq-state-economy-and-civilian-deaths/
The mass killings of Iraqis commenced on 19 March 2003, with the ‘shock and awe’ bombing of Baghdad. Millions sat transfixed before their TV screens, watching as bombs and missiles exploded. The reports came with the warning that they contained flashing images. True enough, the sky over Baghdad flashed orange and golden, the sounds of war filling our ears. The narrative of terror that began that day was to last for years: terror from the sky, terror on the ground, terror from the foreign soldier, terror from one’s neighbour.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

I mean, really. Should I go on?

So the US targeted infrastructure during the first war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Yeah that’s tough. Don’t invade your neighbor I guess.

I'm just gonna let it sit here that your response to:

"During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed in by the US-UK coalition."

was "yeah that's tough."

NP. 2000 children died over 14 years due to US/UK coalition actions? Almost 1000 Ukrainian children have been killed by Russian attacks in the last 8 months. 3 million children inside Ukraine and 2.2 million children outside Ukraine need humanitarian assistance. Russians have deliberately bombed hospitals and schools. 2 out of every 3 Ukrainian kids have been displaced.

And your argument is what? — that because children in one conflict weren’t sufficiently protected, we should close our eyes to this and let children suffer similarly? The US did an f’d up thing by providing false justification for war in Iraq, but is that really justification for Putin to invade Ukraine (a second time)?

I am amazed that the main argument on this thread is - the world failed to protect civilians before so why should the world do it now?

Do you really want me to count displaced Iraqi children?

Is it so wrong to want all invaders to be treated equally?

If your equality argument is we did a crap job at protecting civilians from the invader in X conflict, so we should keep doing a crap job and allow invaders to violate humanitarian law without consequence, then yes, I think it's wrong to work for and support that kind of equality.

This is actually a long-running argument in human rights -- some believe that international law has no meaning if it is not equally applied to all. Others believe that international law is a work in progress and we are building to a world where it applies equally to all, but it's important to take what enforcement is achievable. I am firmly in the latter camp.

It's not really about doing a crap job protecting civilians. It's more about punishing invaders equally for equal sins. I understand your position in support of "work in progress" but it isn't progress when punishment is applied selectively to certain countries but never others.

And of course it's easy to be in the latter camp when you know that no matter what crap thing your government does, no matter which country it chooses to invade, no matter how many civilians it slaughters in collateral damage, no matter how much land it annexes, your bank account will continue working, your credit cards are unaffected, your athletes are still welcome at international competitions, no country can deny you entry, and your job is secure. Do you see what I mean?

Let's make this very concrete: do you ever see Israel being punished or sanctioned for occupying land, annexing it, or violating human rights of people on occupied territories? I don't. Not because there hasn't been progress, but because laws aren't applied equally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can someone remind me…
When the US went into Iraq, did we bomb all of their infrastructure and rape their children? Did we just destroy the place and roll out?
Can’t recall

Oh, the lady wants reminders. OK...

Since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects. Similar birth defects were reported in other populations exposed to war contaminants.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037062/

Between October 1994 and October 1995, the number of birth defects per 1,000 live births in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 1.37. In 2003, the number of birth defects in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 23 per 1,000 live births. Within less than a decade, the occurrence of congenital birth defects increased by an astonishing 17-fold in the same hospital. A yearly account of the occurrence and types of birth defects, between 2003 and 2011, in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital, was reported. Metal levels in hair, toenail, and tooth samples of residents of Al Basrah were also provided. The enamel portion of the deciduous tooth from a child with birth defects from Al Basrah (4.19 μg/g) had nearly three times higher lead than the whole teeth of children living in unimpacted areas. Lead was 1.4 times higher in the tooth enamel of parents of children with birth defects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464374/

Civilian infrastructure, you say:

Former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, Denis Halliday, who resigned from the position in disgust in 1998, contends that epidemics of cholera, dysentery and hepatitis that have plagued Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War were the direct result of the US deliberately targeting Iraq’s infrastructure. He cites a recently released declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency document from the start of the conflict, pointing out Iraq’s vulnerable water situation. The document predicted that the shortage of pure drinking water resulting from the bombing of infrastructure could “lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease”.

“I think there’s no doubt whatsoever that the Americans had worked out the vulnerability of Iraq in terms of clean fresh water,” Halliday said. “So they set about destroying electrical power capacity, which is essential, of course, for the treatment and distribution of water.”

Halliday estimated that by 1999 the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and UN sanctions had directly caused the deaths of 600,000 children and 500,000 adults through malnutrition and disease. Tens of thousands more people, military and civilian, were killed in the US-led military assault. What will be the cost in human suffering of Washington’s next criminal venture in the Gulf?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/11/iraq-n04.html

During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed by the US-UK coalition.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/the-impact-of-the-war-on-terror-on-iraq-state-economy-and-civilian-deaths/
The mass killings of Iraqis commenced on 19 March 2003, with the ‘shock and awe’ bombing of Baghdad. Millions sat transfixed before their TV screens, watching as bombs and missiles exploded. The reports came with the warning that they contained flashing images. True enough, the sky over Baghdad flashed orange and golden, the sounds of war filling our ears. The narrative of terror that began that day was to last for years: terror from the sky, terror on the ground, terror from the foreign soldier, terror from one’s neighbour.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

I mean, really. Should I go on?

So the US targeted infrastructure during the first war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Yeah that’s tough. Don’t invade your neighbor I guess.

I'm just gonna let it sit here that your response to:

"During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed in by the US-UK coalition."

was "yeah that's tough."

NP. 2000 children died over 14 years due to US/UK coalition actions? Almost 1000 Ukrainian children have been killed by Russian attacks in the last 8 months. 3 million children inside Ukraine and 2.2 million children outside Ukraine need humanitarian assistance. Russians have deliberately bombed hospitals and schools. 2 out of every 3 Ukrainian kids have been displaced.

And your argument is what? — that because children in one conflict weren’t sufficiently protected, we should close our eyes to this and let children suffer similarly? The US did an f’d up thing by providing false justification for war in Iraq, but is that really justification for Putin to invade Ukraine (a second time)?

I am amazed that the main argument on this thread is - the world failed to protect civilians before so why should the world do it now?

Do you really want me to count displaced Iraqi children?

Is it so wrong to want all invaders to be treated equally?

If your equality argument is we did a crap job at protecting civilians from the invader in X conflict, so we should keep doing a crap job and allow invaders to violate humanitarian law without consequence, then yes, I think it's wrong to work for and support that kind of equality.

This is actually a long-running argument in human rights -- some believe that international law has no meaning if it is not equally applied to all. Others believe that international law is a work in progress and we are building to a world where it applies equally to all, but it's important to take what enforcement is achievable. I am firmly in the latter camp.

It's not really about doing a crap job protecting civilians. It's more about punishing invaders equally for equal sins. I understand your position in support of "work in progress" but it isn't progress when punishment is applied selectively to certain countries but never others.

And of course it's easy to be in the latter camp when you know that no matter what crap thing your government does, no matter which country it chooses to invade, no matter how many civilians it slaughters in collateral damage, no matter how much land it annexes, your bank account will continue working, your credit cards are unaffected, your athletes are still welcome at international competitions, no country can deny you entry, and your job is secure. Do you see what I mean?

What I see is that you are using your point of view - to equate what the US has done in the past to support Putin today - his unilateral declaration of martial law in 4 municipalities of Ukraine that he doesn’t even fully control, which overwhelmingly voted to leave the Soviet Union nearly a quarter of a century ago, and where he is - right now - ordering the forced mass evacuation of non-Russian Ukrainian citizens (tens of thousands) deeper into Russian held territory as well as the forced conscription of any men remaining in areas under Russian control.

These people are likely to be put through filtration camps (where some of them will experience torture and extra-legal detention as did those being “evacuated” from the Mariupol region), sent onward deep within Russia from places it will be hard to return. Any unaccompanied minor children will be “fostered” with Russian foster parents and placed in an educational system that is designed to teach them to be good Russians. It is unlikely that these children will ever be reunited with their biological family or return to their country of citizenship.

None of this is supposition; it has already happened to Ukrainians living in the Mariupol region.

If you feel justified in supporting this, because other invaders haven’t been sufficiently punished for their sins, then I feel ashamed for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So can someone remind me…
When the US went into Iraq, did we bomb all of their infrastructure and rape their children? Did we just destroy the place and roll out?
Can’t recall

Oh, the lady wants reminders. OK...

Since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects. Similar birth defects were reported in other populations exposed to war contaminants.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037062/

Between October 1994 and October 1995, the number of birth defects per 1,000 live births in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 1.37. In 2003, the number of birth defects in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital was 23 per 1,000 live births. Within less than a decade, the occurrence of congenital birth defects increased by an astonishing 17-fold in the same hospital. A yearly account of the occurrence and types of birth defects, between 2003 and 2011, in Al Basrah Maternity Hospital, was reported. Metal levels in hair, toenail, and tooth samples of residents of Al Basrah were also provided. The enamel portion of the deciduous tooth from a child with birth defects from Al Basrah (4.19 μg/g) had nearly three times higher lead than the whole teeth of children living in unimpacted areas. Lead was 1.4 times higher in the tooth enamel of parents of children with birth defects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464374/

Civilian infrastructure, you say:

Former UN humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, Denis Halliday, who resigned from the position in disgust in 1998, contends that epidemics of cholera, dysentery and hepatitis that have plagued Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War were the direct result of the US deliberately targeting Iraq’s infrastructure. He cites a recently released declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency document from the start of the conflict, pointing out Iraq’s vulnerable water situation. The document predicted that the shortage of pure drinking water resulting from the bombing of infrastructure could “lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease”.

“I think there’s no doubt whatsoever that the Americans had worked out the vulnerability of Iraq in terms of clean fresh water,” Halliday said. “So they set about destroying electrical power capacity, which is essential, of course, for the treatment and distribution of water.”

Halliday estimated that by 1999 the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and UN sanctions had directly caused the deaths of 600,000 children and 500,000 adults through malnutrition and disease. Tens of thousands more people, military and civilian, were killed in the US-led military assault. What will be the cost in human suffering of Washington’s next criminal venture in the Gulf?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/11/iraq-n04.html

During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed by the US-UK coalition.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/the-impact-of-the-war-on-terror-on-iraq-state-economy-and-civilian-deaths/
The mass killings of Iraqis commenced on 19 March 2003, with the ‘shock and awe’ bombing of Baghdad. Millions sat transfixed before their TV screens, watching as bombs and missiles exploded. The reports came with the warning that they contained flashing images. True enough, the sky over Baghdad flashed orange and golden, the sounds of war filling our ears. The narrative of terror that began that day was to last for years: terror from the sky, terror on the ground, terror from the foreign soldier, terror from one’s neighbour.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Several times as many Iraqi civilians may have died as an indirect result of the war, due to damage to the systems that provide food, health care and clean drinking water, and as a result, illness, infectious diseases, and malnutrition that could otherwise have been avoided or treated. The war has compounded the ill effects of decades of harmful U.S. policy actions towards Iraq since the 1960s, including economic sanctions in the 1990s that were devastating for Iraqis.

I mean, really. Should I go on?

So the US targeted infrastructure during the first war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Yeah that’s tough. Don’t invade your neighbor I guess.

I'm just gonna let it sit here that your response to:

"During the 2003-2017 period, Iraq Body Count recorded the killings of over 7,000 Iraqi children, among them 932 are attributed to the Islamic State, while twice as many were killed by the US-UK coalition. Estimates suggest that over 7,400 Iraqi children have been killed up to 2021, with over 1,000 deaths attributed to the Islamic State, and twice as many killed in by the US-UK coalition."

was "yeah that's tough."

NP. 2000 children died over 14 years due to US/UK coalition actions? Almost 1000 Ukrainian children have been killed by Russian attacks in the last 8 months. 3 million children inside Ukraine and 2.2 million children outside Ukraine need humanitarian assistance. Russians have deliberately bombed hospitals and schools. 2 out of every 3 Ukrainian kids have been displaced.

And your argument is what? — that because children in one conflict weren’t sufficiently protected, we should close our eyes to this and let children suffer similarly? The US did an f’d up thing by providing false justification for war in Iraq, but is that really justification for Putin to invade Ukraine (a second time)?

I am amazed that the main argument on this thread is - the world failed to protect civilians before so why should the world do it now?

Do you really want me to count displaced Iraqi children?

Is it so wrong to want all invaders to be treated equally?

If your equality argument is we did a crap job at protecting civilians from the invader in X conflict, so we should keep doing a crap job and allow invaders to violate humanitarian law without consequence, then yes, I think it's wrong to work for and support that kind of equality.

This is actually a long-running argument in human rights -- some believe that international law has no meaning if it is not equally applied to all. Others believe that international law is a work in progress and we are building to a world where it applies equally to all, but it's important to take what enforcement is achievable. I am firmly in the latter camp.

It's not really about doing a crap job protecting civilians. It's more about punishing invaders equally for equal sins. I understand your position in support of "work in progress" but it isn't progress when punishment is applied selectively to certain countries but never others.

And of course it's easy to be in the latter camp when you know that no matter what crap thing your government does, no matter which country it chooses to invade, no matter how many civilians it slaughters in collateral damage, no matter how much land it annexes, your bank account will continue working, your credit cards are unaffected, your athletes are still welcome at international competitions, no country can deny you entry, and your job is secure. Do you see what I mean?

What I see is that you are using your point of view - to equate what the US has done in the past to support Putin today - his unilateral declaration of martial law in 4 municipalities of Ukraine that he doesn’t even fully control, which overwhelmingly voted to leave the Soviet Union nearly a quarter of a century ago, and where he is - right now - ordering the forced mass evacuation of non-Russian Ukrainian citizens (tens of thousands) deeper into Russian held territory as well as the forced conscription of any men remaining in areas under Russian control.

These people are likely to be put through filtration camps (where some of them will experience torture and extra-legal detention as did those being “evacuated” from the Mariupol region), sent onward deep within Russia from places it will be hard to return. Any unaccompanied minor children will be “fostered” with Russian foster parents and placed in an educational system that is designed to teach them to be good Russians. It is unlikely that these children will ever be reunited with their biological family or return to their country of citizenship.

None of this is supposition; it has already happened to Ukrainians living in the Mariupol region.

If you feel justified in supporting this, because other invaders haven’t been sufficiently punished for their sins, then I feel ashamed for you.

Your shame for me isn't relevant. I've said nothing about supporting it, and you insist on focusing on the suffering of the (one type of) invaded rather than the consequences for the invader. But I see you want me to give you this shibboleth. OK. I will join you in condemning this if you write up a list of sanctions that you think the US should have been slapped with after the Iraqi wars. Please be specific. Name American banks that should be cut off from the global financial system. Name the amount of gold reserves that must be frozen. The international sporting competitions from which America ought to be banned and for how long. The countries that ought to ban entry to Americans. The war crimes tribunals that America should have been tried in. The amount of reparations that America should have paid. If you feel really generous, the number of years for which it ought to be demilitarized. Really, anything and everything to which Russia is being subjected now.

When you give me a list of this, you can have my condemnation. Until then, I'm sure you're a nice person and all, but assuming you're American like me, then a citizen of the country that brought the world Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and countless other unpunished invasions will not be lecturing the world on the evils of the invasions led by countries we happen to dislike.