40 Colleges & Universities Receive 5 Star Academic Rating

Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:Speaking of Engineering

Northeastern beat Berkeley here for per capita

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-engineering


Northeastern's rise in the rankings has been meteoric, but has the quality of education actually increased that much since the 1990s when it was basically open admissions? My fartknocker cousin went there in 1995ish as a last resort when he couldn't even get into UMass Amherst. His nickname in the family was "short bus" because he was so dim. But Northeastern let him in and even gave him a degree (albeit after about 6-7 years). I find it hard to believe it's a completely different school now than the joke it was back then.


A lot of the newly “great” schools are based on computer science and other STEM programs. Kids are falling over themselves to get into STEM programs and there are only so many seats at the very top programs. That means many smart kids still have to go somewhere. With test optional, kids are less certain where they will match, so they apply to 10-15 colleges instead of 3-5. The extra applications drive up numbers at lower ranking schools, but even these colleges have a limited number of seats. All the excess applications look like increased selectivity, but it’s really just a numbers game caused by a wacky system.


This. The truly great schools have a 20-30 year reputation of being well-ranked. Look for the long-run trend, not the change in the last few years.

In the past 30 yrs, many of the elite schools admitted more legacies and less URM. Legacies have connections that parlays into high paying jobs. It's a self selecting group.
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Anonymous wrote:UVA is weak in STEM. So much for academic ratings. Another BS ranking.


Agreed. Berkeley blows away UVA in academic departments.


The book lists Berkeley's top programs as: Biological Science, Business, Chemistry, Computer Science, Economics, Engineering, English, and Psychology.


That’s a very small sampling of Cal’s strengths. Berkeley has top programs in almost all of its offerings. Way, way more than UVA. It isn’t even close. That is only gets a 4.5 star rating from this ranking is a joke.


Probably the impacted major thing plus the high % TAs teaching undergrads vs. profs


That and class sizes.

But I would think all this would apply to each of the big public universities. I personally don’t see UVA and UCLA offering a better academic experience than Berkeley. They are fantastic values, but that’s really a different thing. I would have all three at 4.5. And drop some of the other 4.5s to 4.0.

It’s worth remembering the authors of college guides want to sell books. And if all the top rated schools for actual academic experience are of small to medium undergrad size, they might have a reduced audience.

Maybe there should be different rankings for public universities vs private universities vs LACs. Similar to USNWR but with a category for national public unis. The trade offs and experiences are so different across the groups. Having different lists would force more reflection on what matters to a given student and family, rather than just automatically valuing the higher ranked thing when apples, oranges, and bananas are being compared.


+1

I started this thread. I agree with the above quoted post's suggestion that, among elite schools, Private National Universities should be viewed differently than Public National Universities for ranking purposes, and that LACs belong in a totally different category.

When all types of schools are combined, I think that the Wall Street Journal / Times Higher Education (WSJ/THE) rankings do a great job due to the focus on outcomes (heavier weighting for outcomes).

Also agree that families and students have different priorities for their undergraduate experience.



The problem with the THE/WSJ consolidated list is that their methodology was originally devised for comparing global universities where research is the priority. It’s really not well suited for LACs, which don’t exist in the UK (where THE is based.). This is why there are no LACs in their combined top 20 of US colleges. This should give pause when considering how LACs are entirely focused on undergrads, are half of the 20 best endowed colleges on a per student basis are LACs.

To be more specific, 30% of their weighting goes towards “Resources.” But that is weighted as 11% finance per student, 11% faculty per student, and 8% research papers per faculty. We know that papers per faculty is biased towards universities straight off. But the other 22% is also going to be misleading, because faculty and finances are not evenly split amongst grads and undergrads when both are present; there’s going to be far more money and faculty time spent on grad students than on undergrads on a per student basis. A compensating adjustment needs to be taking place but isn’t. (For me this was one of the key takeaways of the recent Columbia analysis of how their numbers were overstating undergrad investment… universities simply lack established conventions on how to do this; it’s less of an issue when comparing to other universities but distortions will be more pronounced when comparing to LACs where necessarily 100% of the funds and faculty focus go to educating the undergrad population).


I disagree as the methodology used by the WSJ/THE 2022 college rankings focuses on areas that are fair to both National Universities and to Liberal Arts Colleges.

The 4 weighted areas used: Outcomes 40%, Resources 30%, Engagement 20%, and Environment 10%

https://timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/wall-street-journal-times-higher-education-college-rankings-2022


In the case of an LAC, 100% of the resources (30%) go to the undergrads.

In the case of the university, we don’t really know how much of a budget or a professor’s office or research time goes to an undergrad vs the grad student, we only know they prioritize the latter but that the metrics used by WSJ don’t explain if or how they account for that difference.


You make very strong arguments in favor of SLACs with high endowments or high endowments per student (or am i reading too much into your well reasoned comments ?).

I agree that some will prefer a near 100% focus on undergraduate education in a more intimate setting rather than attending a much larger school with a significant presence of graduate students.

Among elite Private National Universities, some student populations are about 50% undergraduate and 50% graduate students (Northwestern University is an example where grad students may outnumber undergrads), but this provides more resources and engenders a serious academic environment.

It would be interesting to list the top 20 private National Universities by percentage of grad students & undergraduates.


You are not misreading, and I appreciate the kind words.

I don’t know of a listing that sorts NUs by undergrad percentage. However, my impression is that split was a factor many used when responding to the USNWR survey specifically asking for focus on undergrad teaching. You've probably seen it, but here's the link:

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

I would agree NUs with a large percentage of undergrads offer an interesting compromise (as do LACs with traditions in encouraging undergrad research). Research opportunities can be very rewarding for the sufficiently motivated and undeterred. At the large universities, the trick it seems is not giving up after the first couple years of overpacked lecture halls and (comparatively) aloof profs.


I have several family members who have attended a variety of elite Private National Universities and experienced few large classes and many classes with fewer than 20 students--often fewer than 12 students. Northwestern, Chicago, Columbia, Duke, Brown, and a couple of others.


I believe you, but I think it tends to be a bigger issue in the sciences where the large nature of certain introductory courses factors as much or more into the “weeding” than the course content. There’s some data for this in the CDS (assuming one isn’t dealing with a school that opts not to publish!).

Average class size data is useful but has to be considered carefully when schools report. A school that has 1 class of 99 students and 1 class of 1 student can claim an average class size of 50 even though 99% of the students experience double that. This is why one reason why some schools have so many barely attended classes. It pulls the average down in a way that may not represent the typical experience.



US News Best Colleges breaks class size down to "percentage of classes under 20 students" and "percentage of classes over 50 students". To the best of my knowledge, US News does not use "average class size" in its ratings and ranking system.

Among the top 50 National Universities, the Univ. of California schools have a lot of classes of 50 or more students.

Many Private National Universities among the US News Best Colleges top 50 report high percentages (65% or more) of classes with fewer than 20 students. Whether or not this includes break-out sections and labs from large lecture classes is not clear, but it is reasonable to assume that they are included.

My understanding is that the large classes at National Universities tend to be introductory courses in the sciences--with small sections of break-out classes and labs which may often be led by a graduate PhD student--and large intro classes in psychology and sometimes intro econ courses.



Yes, that's how US News does it. When I was saying some colleges report average class size, I meant on their own websites. For example, if you go to UPenn's Facts and Figures page, they report the average class size for the College of Arts and Sciences is 15. They don't specify if that's a mean or a median, and they don't offer an average class size for Wharton or for the School of Engineering, where I imagine faculty have higher average salaries.

But even how US News does it can be misleading. Applying their approach to the earlier example (one class of 1 student and one of 99), US News would count that as 50% of courses under 20 even though a given student is 99 time more likely to be taking a course over 50 students.

It's a tricky problem. The best thing imo is to examine the actual enrollment info for courses at a college that is being seriously considered. Different schools share different amounts of information. A private university known for undergraduate teaching focus (per US News) like Princeton puts that info in the public domain where enrollment and total seats for current and up to 3 years back can be examined on an individual course basis can be examined. An LAC known for the same like Carleton also does that (current plus 5 years back). When I check for Harvard or UPenn, that appears to require a student login.





Most of what USNWR uses in rankings is either just from people largely regurgitating the rprevious year's ratings (reputation score) or from data that can be manipulated in one way or another (class size, resources, selectivity).
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Speaking of Engineering

Northeastern beat Berkeley here for per capita

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-engineering


Adjusted for undergraduate enrollment doesn't mean adjusted for the percentage of undergraduates who are majoring in engineering. The schools with higher engineering enrollments are at the top.
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:The book notes 5 star UCLA's strongest programs as:

Computer Science, Engineering, English, Fine Arts, Mathematics, Performing Arts, Political Science, and Psychology.

UCLA seems like an interesting community.

Overall, this college guidebook loves the UC system with 4 UCs receiving the second highest academic rating (4.5 stars) and one (UCLA) receiving a full 5 star rating for academics.

Many seem to underestimate the quality of the University of Virginia. Univ. of Virginia is an outstanding university.

When I wrote the first two posts in this thread, I thought that there would be strong reaction to rating the academics of UC-Berkeley the same as for Boston University and the Univ. of Florida, and Boston College.

To really stir things up, I will list the SLACs that earned a 4.5 star academic rating (same as UC-Berkeley) :

Smith College, Wesleyan University, Bucknell University, Bates College, Univ. of Richmond, Scripps College, Colgate University, Colby College, Colorado College, College of the Holy Cross, Lafayette College, Union College, Vassar College, & Grinnell College.

Th three authors of the book all have earned doctorates--two PhDs and an EdD.


The thing is, a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal. Nearly any school has adequate resources to teach bachelors level material. If a student can find engaged faculty and peers and access to the programs that they are interested in, they can do great from anywhere. While I would never advise a kid to choose BU or UVA over Cal for a PhD program in most sciences, they can absolutely get just as good of an undergraduate education at any of these schools, and many, many others.


Regarding the assertion that "a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal", my response is that it can be depending upon the particular school and upon the particular major.


There are certain majors and certain schools which are "a big deal" at the undergraduate level.

My position is that if accepted to any of these schools, one should do everything within reason to attend:

Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, CalTech, Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs.


LOL wtf remove Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs

CMU is not it exept for CS.
only handful of people want to go to the military places and lifstyle


It is reasonable to assume that those who apply to the service academies and are accepted want to go there as evidenced by their yield rates.

Your suggestion to remove CMU & Harvey Mudd from the list suggests that you should examine further the graduates career results from both schools.


Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) is the top undergraduate feeder school to the top dozen or so employers in the tech industry both by total graduates placed and when such placement is adjusted for undergraduate enrollment.

Top feeders to tech industry when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment:

1) Carnegie Mellon University
2) Stanford
3) CalTech
4) Harvey Mudd
5) Columbia
6) MIT
7) Georgia Tech
8) USC
9) Rice
10) Duke
11) Princeton
12) UCal-Berkeley
13) Cornell
14) Brown
15) U Penn
16) Harvard
17) U Washington--Seattle
18) Santa Clara
19) Northwestern
20) Northeastern (Boston)
21) Swarthmore
22) Yale
23) UC-San Diego
24) Illinois
25) WashUStL
26) Johns Hopkins
27) UCLA
28) U Waterloo
29) U Chicago
30) Michigan
Anonymous
Lies
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Anonymous wrote:UVA is weak in STEM. So much for academic ratings. Another BS ranking.


That's not true. It's far more selective with STEM admits than the college.


But that doesn't necessarily mean the programs are strong.




UVA is no 37 in Engineering in the US per USNWR. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-engineering-schools/eng-rankings

behind many other publics, including VT. And I don't care about either.



But out of 4,000 institutions of higher education in America that’s pretty amazing!

ok but I guess even more amazing for VT.
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:The book notes 5 star UCLA's strongest programs as:

Computer Science, Engineering, English, Fine Arts, Mathematics, Performing Arts, Political Science, and Psychology.

UCLA seems like an interesting community.

Overall, this college guidebook loves the UC system with 4 UCs receiving the second highest academic rating (4.5 stars) and one (UCLA) receiving a full 5 star rating for academics.

Many seem to underestimate the quality of the University of Virginia. Univ. of Virginia is an outstanding university.

When I wrote the first two posts in this thread, I thought that there would be strong reaction to rating the academics of UC-Berkeley the same as for Boston University and the Univ. of Florida, and Boston College.

To really stir things up, I will list the SLACs that earned a 4.5 star academic rating (same as UC-Berkeley) :

Smith College, Wesleyan University, Bucknell University, Bates College, Univ. of Richmond, Scripps College, Colgate University, Colby College, Colorado College, College of the Holy Cross, Lafayette College, Union College, Vassar College, & Grinnell College.

Th three authors of the book all have earned doctorates--two PhDs and an EdD.


The thing is, a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal. Nearly any school has adequate resources to teach bachelors level material. If a student can find engaged faculty and peers and access to the programs that they are interested in, they can do great from anywhere. While I would never advise a kid to choose BU or UVA over Cal for a PhD program in most sciences, they can absolutely get just as good of an undergraduate education at any of these schools, and many, many others.


Regarding the assertion that "a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal", my response is that it can be depending upon the particular school and upon the particular major.


There are certain majors and certain schools which are "a big deal" at the undergraduate level.

My position is that if accepted to any of these schools, one should do everything within reason to attend:

Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, CalTech, Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs.


LOL wtf remove Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs

CMU is not it exept for CS.
only handful of people want to go to the military places and lifstyle


It is reasonable to assume that those who apply to the service academies and are accepted want to go there as evidenced by their yield rates.

Your suggestion to remove CMU & Harvey Mudd from the list suggests that you should examine further the graduates career results from both schools.


Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) is the top undergraduate feeder school to the top dozen or so employers in the tech industry both by total graduates placed and when such placement is adjusted for undergraduate enrollment.

Top feeders to tech industry when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment:

1) Carnegie Mellon University
2) Stanford
3) CalTech
4) Harvey Mudd
5) Columbia
6) MIT
7) Georgia Tech
8) USC
9) Rice
10) Duke
11) Princeton
12) UCal-Berkeley
13) Cornell
14) Brown
15) U Penn
16) Harvard
17) U Washington--Seattle
18) Santa Clara
19) Northwestern
20) Northeastern (Boston)
21) Swarthmore
22) Yale
23) UC-San Diego
24) Illinois
25) WashUStL
26) Johns Hopkins
27) UCLA
28) U Waterloo
29) U Chicago
30) Michigan


Not "the top feeders to the tech industry" but maybe the "top feeders to a subset of positions at 12 companies we searched in LinkedIn." Big difference.

By their own admission they analyzed about 0.04% of the industry. Some might say that's a rounding error.

I think it's cool they did anything at all. The 12 companies they picked are interesting. But the positions tallied represent a vanishingly small piece of the pie. Like, the crumb that falls of the crumb you try to pick up with your fingers. It's important to describe data accurately.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The book notes 5 star UCLA's strongest programs as:

Computer Science, Engineering, English, Fine Arts, Mathematics, Performing Arts, Political Science, and Psychology.

UCLA seems like an interesting community.

Overall, this college guidebook loves the UC system with 4 UCs receiving the second highest academic rating (4.5 stars) and one (UCLA) receiving a full 5 star rating for academics.

Many seem to underestimate the quality of the University of Virginia. Univ. of Virginia is an outstanding university.

When I wrote the first two posts in this thread, I thought that there would be strong reaction to rating the academics of UC-Berkeley the same as for Boston University and the Univ. of Florida, and Boston College.

To really stir things up, I will list the SLACs that earned a 4.5 star academic rating (same as UC-Berkeley) :

Smith College, Wesleyan University, Bucknell University, Bates College, Univ. of Richmond, Scripps College, Colgate University, Colby College, Colorado College, College of the Holy Cross, Lafayette College, Union College, Vassar College, & Grinnell College.

Th three authors of the book all have earned doctorates--two PhDs and an EdD.


The thing is, a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal. Nearly any school has adequate resources to teach bachelors level material. If a student can find engaged faculty and peers and access to the programs that they are interested in, they can do great from anywhere. While I would never advise a kid to choose BU or UVA over Cal for a PhD program in most sciences, they can absolutely get just as good of an undergraduate education at any of these schools, and many, many others.


Regarding the assertion that "a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal", my response is that it can be depending upon the particular school and upon the particular major.


There are certain majors and certain schools which are "a big deal" at the undergraduate level.

My position is that if accepted to any of these schools, one should do everything within reason to attend:

Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, CalTech, Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs.


LOL wtf remove Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs

CMU is not it exept for CS.
only handful of people want to go to the military places and lifstyle


It is reasonable to assume that those who apply to the service academies and are accepted want to go there as evidenced by their yield rates.

Your suggestion to remove CMU & Harvey Mudd from the list suggests that you should examine further the graduates career results from both schools.


Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) is the top undergraduate feeder school to the top dozen or so employers in the tech industry both by total graduates placed and when such placement is adjusted for undergraduate enrollment.

Top feeders to tech industry when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment:

1) Carnegie Mellon University
2) Stanford
3) CalTech
4) Harvey Mudd
5) Columbia
6) MIT
7) Georgia Tech
8) USC
9) Rice
10) Duke
11) Princeton
12) UCal-Berkeley
13) Cornell
14) Brown
15) U Penn
16) Harvard
17) U Washington--Seattle
18) Santa Clara
19) Northwestern
20) Northeastern (Boston)
21) Swarthmore
22) Yale
23) UC-San Diego
24) Illinois
25) WashUStL
26) Johns Hopkins
27) UCLA
28) U Waterloo
29) U Chicago
30) Michigan


Not "the top feeders to the tech industry" but maybe the "top feeders to a subset of positions at 12 companies we searched in LinkedIn." Big difference.

By their own admission they analyzed about 0.04% of the industry. Some might say that's a rounding error.

I think it's cool they did anything at all. The 12 companies they picked are interesting. But the positions tallied represent a vanishingly small piece of the pie. Like, the crumb that falls of the crumb you try to pick up with your fingers. It's important to describe data accurately.


This is what drives me crazy about all these rankings--people treat the ranking as if it is meaningful, but the data underlying it is often so limited.
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Anonymous wrote:UVA is weak in STEM. So much for academic ratings. Another BS ranking.


Agreed. Berkeley blows away UVA in academic departments.


The book lists Berkeley's top programs as: Biological Science, Business, Chemistry, Computer Science, Economics, Engineering, English, and Psychology.


That’s a very small sampling of Cal’s strengths. Berkeley has top programs in almost all of its offerings. Way, way more than UVA. It isn’t even close. That is only gets a 4.5 star rating from this ranking is a joke.


Probably the impacted major thing plus the high % TAs teaching undergrads vs. profs


That and class sizes.

But I would think all this would apply to each of the big public universities. I personally don’t see UVA and UCLA offering a better academic experience than Berkeley. They are fantastic values, but that’s really a different thing. I would have all three at 4.5. And drop some of the other 4.5s to 4.0.

It’s worth remembering the authors of college guides want to sell books. And if all the top rated schools for actual academic experience are of small to medium undergrad size, they might have a reduced audience.

Maybe there should be different rankings for public universities vs private universities vs LACs. Similar to USNWR but with a category for national public unis. The trade offs and experiences are so different across the groups. Having different lists would force more reflection on what matters to a given student and family, rather than just automatically valuing the higher ranked thing when apples, oranges, and bananas are being compared.


+1

I started this thread. I agree with the above quoted post's suggestion that, among elite schools, Private National Universities should be viewed differently than Public National Universities for ranking purposes, and that LACs belong in a totally different category.

When all types of schools are combined, I think that the Wall Street Journal / Times Higher Education (WSJ/THE) rankings do a great job due to the focus on outcomes (heavier weighting for outcomes).

Also agree that families and students have different priorities for their undergraduate experience.



The problem with the THE/WSJ consolidated list is that their methodology was originally devised for comparing global universities where research is the priority. It’s really not well suited for LACs, which don’t exist in the UK (where THE is based.). This is why there are no LACs in their combined top 20 of US colleges. This should give pause when considering how LACs are entirely focused on undergrads, are half of the 20 best endowed colleges on a per student basis are LACs.

To be more specific, 30% of their weighting goes towards “Resources.” But that is weighted as 11% finance per student, 11% faculty per student, and 8% research papers per faculty. We know that papers per faculty is biased towards universities straight off. But the other 22% is also going to be misleading, because faculty and finances are not evenly split amongst grads and undergrads when both are present; there’s going to be far more money and faculty time spent on grad students than on undergrads on a per student basis. A compensating adjustment needs to be taking place but isn’t. (For me this was one of the key takeaways of the recent Columbia analysis of how their numbers were overstating undergrad investment… universities simply lack established conventions on how to do this; it’s less of an issue when comparing to other universities but distortions will be more pronounced when comparing to LACs where necessarily 100% of the funds and faculty focus go to educating the undergrad population).


I disagree as the methodology used by the WSJ/THE 2022 college rankings focuses on areas that are fair to both National Universities and to Liberal Arts Colleges.

The 4 weighted areas used: Outcomes 40%, Resources 30%, Engagement 20%, and Environment 10%

https://timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/wall-street-journal-times-higher-education-college-rankings-2022


In the case of an LAC, 100% of the resources (30%) go to the undergrads.

In the case of the university, we don’t really know how much of a budget or a professor’s office or research time goes to an undergrad vs the grad student, we only know they prioritize the latter but that the metrics used by WSJ don’t explain if or how they account for that difference.


You make very strong arguments in favor of SLACs with high endowments or high endowments per student (or am i reading too much into your well reasoned comments ?).

I agree that some will prefer a near 100% focus on undergraduate education in a more intimate setting rather than attending a much larger school with a significant presence of graduate students.

Among elite Private National Universities, some student populations are about 50% undergraduate and 50% graduate students (Northwestern University is an example where grad students may outnumber undergrads), but this provides more resources and engenders a serious academic environment.

It would be interesting to list the top 20 private National Universities by percentage of grad students & undergraduates.


You are not misreading, and I appreciate the kind words.

I don’t know of a listing that sorts NUs by undergrad percentage. However, my impression is that split was a factor many used when responding to the USNWR survey specifically asking for focus on undergrad teaching. You've probably seen it, but here's the link:

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

I would agree NUs with a large percentage of undergrads offer an interesting compromise (as do LACs with traditions in encouraging undergrad research). Research opportunities can be very rewarding for the sufficiently motivated and undeterred. At the large universities, the trick it seems is not giving up after the first couple years of overpacked lecture halls and (comparatively) aloof profs.


I have several family members who have attended a variety of elite Private National Universities and experienced few large classes and many classes with fewer than 20 students--often fewer than 12 students. Northwestern, Chicago, Columbia, Duke, Brown, and a couple of others.


I believe you, but I think it tends to be a bigger issue in the sciences where the large nature of certain introductory courses factors as much or more into the “weeding” than the course content. There’s some data for this in the CDS (assuming one isn’t dealing with a school that opts not to publish!).

Average class size data is useful but has to be considered carefully when schools report. A school that has 1 class of 99 students and 1 class of 1 student can claim an average class size of 50 even though 99% of the students experience double that. This is why one reason why some schools have so many barely attended classes. It pulls the average down in a way that may not represent the typical experience.



US News Best Colleges breaks class size down to "percentage of classes under 20 students" and "percentage of classes over 50 students". To the best of my knowledge, US News does not use "average class size" in its ratings and ranking system.

Among the top 50 National Universities, the Univ. of California schools have a lot of classes of 50 or more students.

Many Private National Universities among the US News Best Colleges top 50 report high percentages (65% or more) of classes with fewer than 20 students. Whether or not this includes break-out sections and labs from large lecture classes is not clear, but it is reasonable to assume that they are included.

My understanding is that the large classes at National Universities tend to be introductory courses in the sciences--with small sections of break-out classes and labs which may often be led by a graduate PhD student--and large intro classes in psychology and sometimes intro econ courses.



Yes, that's how US News does it. When I was saying some colleges report average class size, I meant on their own websites. For example, if you go to UPenn's Facts and Figures page, they report the average class size for the College of Arts and Sciences is 15. They don't specify if that's a mean or a median, and they don't offer an average class size for Wharton or for the School of Engineering, where I imagine faculty have higher average salaries.

But even how US News does it can be misleading. Applying their approach to the earlier example (one class of 1 student and one of 99), US News would count that as 50% of courses under 20 even though a given student is 99 time more likely to be taking a course over 50 students.

It's a tricky problem. The best thing imo is to examine the actual enrollment info for courses at a college that is being seriously considered. Different schools share different amounts of information. A private university known for undergraduate teaching focus (per US News) like Princeton puts that info in the public domain where enrollment and total seats for current and up to 3 years back can be examined on an individual course basis can be examined. An LAC known for the same like Carleton also does that (current plus 5 years back). When I check for Harvard or UPenn, that appears to require a student login.





Most of what USNWR uses in rankings is either just from people largely regurgitating the rprevious year's ratings (reputation score) or from data that can be manipulated in one way or another (class size, resources, selectivity).


There's some truth to that. But I would still consider US News to be the most useful and influential of the rankings. All rankings are flawed. But by doing theirs the longest and having been under the microscope for decades due to the outweighted influence they have, they've actually revised and improved their methodology over the years based on critical feedback to a degree newer and usually less transparent rankings simply haven't. Also, the newer rankings would have zero market if they concluded US News were correct. Whoever went first could focus on getting it right and not on simply being different than what had come before.

That said, don't rely on a single ranking for a college decision! Even US News literally says "You should not use the rankings as the sole basis for deciding on one school over another. The rankings are a source of useful information about colleges than might otherwise be hard to obtain and can help narrow your search to a small number of colleges that are a good fit." In other words, they are intended to be a starting point in the search process. For that, they are not bad. It's the lack of further research and insecurities of certain consumers that causes the nutty behavior to focus on rank above all else.
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:The book notes 5 star UCLA's strongest programs as:

Computer Science, Engineering, English, Fine Arts, Mathematics, Performing Arts, Political Science, and Psychology.

UCLA seems like an interesting community.

Overall, this college guidebook loves the UC system with 4 UCs receiving the second highest academic rating (4.5 stars) and one (UCLA) receiving a full 5 star rating for academics.

Many seem to underestimate the quality of the University of Virginia. Univ. of Virginia is an outstanding university.

When I wrote the first two posts in this thread, I thought that there would be strong reaction to rating the academics of UC-Berkeley the same as for Boston University and the Univ. of Florida, and Boston College.

To really stir things up, I will list the SLACs that earned a 4.5 star academic rating (same as UC-Berkeley) :

Smith College, Wesleyan University, Bucknell University, Bates College, Univ. of Richmond, Scripps College, Colgate University, Colby College, Colorado College, College of the Holy Cross, Lafayette College, Union College, Vassar College, & Grinnell College.

Th three authors of the book all have earned doctorates--two PhDs and an EdD.


The thing is, a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal. Nearly any school has adequate resources to teach bachelors level material. If a student can find engaged faculty and peers and access to the programs that they are interested in, they can do great from anywhere. While I would never advise a kid to choose BU or UVA over Cal for a PhD program in most sciences, they can absolutely get just as good of an undergraduate education at any of these schools, and many, many others.


Regarding the assertion that "a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal", my response is that it can be depending upon the particular school and upon the particular major.


There are certain majors and certain schools which are "a big deal" at the undergraduate level.

My position is that if accepted to any of these schools, one should do everything within reason to attend:

Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, CalTech, Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs.


LOL wtf remove Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs

CMU is not it exept for CS.
only handful of people want to go to the military places and lifstyle


It is reasonable to assume that those who apply to the service academies and are accepted want to go there as evidenced by their yield rates.

Your suggestion to remove CMU & Harvey Mudd from the list suggests that you should examine further the graduates career results from both schools.


Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) is the top undergraduate feeder school to the top dozen or so employers in the tech industry both by total graduates placed and when such placement is adjusted for undergraduate enrollment.

Top feeders to tech industry when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment:

1) Carnegie Mellon University
2) Stanford
3) CalTech
4) Harvey Mudd
5) Columbia
6) MIT
7) Georgia Tech
8) USC
9) Rice
10) Duke
11) Princeton
12) UCal-Berkeley
13) Cornell
14) Brown
15) U Penn
16) Harvard
17) U Washington--Seattle
18) Santa Clara
19) Northwestern
20) Northeastern (Boston)
21) Swarthmore
22) Yale
23) UC-San Diego
24) Illinois
25) WashUStL
26) Johns Hopkins
27) UCLA
28) U Waterloo
29) U Chicago
30) Michigan


Not "the top feeders to the tech industry" but maybe the "top feeders to a subset of positions at 12 companies we searched in LinkedIn." Big difference.

By their own admission they analyzed about 0.04% of the industry. Some might say that's a rounding error.

I think it's cool they did anything at all. The 12 companies they picked are interesting. But the positions tallied represent a vanishingly small piece of the pie. Like, the crumb that falls of the crumb you try to pick up with your fingers. It's important to describe data accurately.


This is what drives me crazy about all these rankings--people treat the ranking as if it is meaningful, but the data underlying it is often so limited.


Better than no data
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:UVA is weak in STEM. So much for academic ratings. Another BS ranking.


Agreed. Berkeley blows away UVA in academic departments.


The book lists Berkeley's top programs as: Biological Science, Business, Chemistry, Computer Science, Economics, Engineering, English, and Psychology.


That’s a very small sampling of Cal’s strengths. Berkeley has top programs in almost all of its offerings. Way, way more than UVA. It isn’t even close. That is only gets a 4.5 star rating from this ranking is a joke.


Probably the impacted major thing plus the high % TAs teaching undergrads vs. profs


That and class sizes.

But I would think all this would apply to each of the big public universities. I personally don’t see UVA and UCLA offering a better academic experience than Berkeley. They are fantastic values, but that’s really a different thing. I would have all three at 4.5. And drop some of the other 4.5s to 4.0.

It’s worth remembering the authors of college guides want to sell books. And if all the top rated schools for actual academic experience are of small to medium undergrad size, they might have a reduced audience.

Maybe there should be different rankings for public universities vs private universities vs LACs. Similar to USNWR but with a category for national public unis. The trade offs and experiences are so different across the groups. Having different lists would force more reflection on what matters to a given student and family, rather than just automatically valuing the higher ranked thing when apples, oranges, and bananas are being compared.


+1

I started this thread. I agree with the above quoted post's suggestion that, among elite schools, Private National Universities should be viewed differently than Public National Universities for ranking purposes, and that LACs belong in a totally different category.

When all types of schools are combined, I think that the Wall Street Journal / Times Higher Education (WSJ/THE) rankings do a great job due to the focus on outcomes (heavier weighting for outcomes).

Also agree that families and students have different priorities for their undergraduate experience.



The problem with the THE/WSJ consolidated list is that their methodology was originally devised for comparing global universities where research is the priority. It’s really not well suited for LACs, which don’t exist in the UK (where THE is based.). This is why there are no LACs in their combined top 20 of US colleges. This should give pause when considering how LACs are entirely focused on undergrads, are half of the 20 best endowed colleges on a per student basis are LACs.

To be more specific, 30% of their weighting goes towards “Resources.” But that is weighted as 11% finance per student, 11% faculty per student, and 8% research papers per faculty. We know that papers per faculty is biased towards universities straight off. But the other 22% is also going to be misleading, because faculty and finances are not evenly split amongst grads and undergrads when both are present; there’s going to be far more money and faculty time spent on grad students than on undergrads on a per student basis. A compensating adjustment needs to be taking place but isn’t. (For me this was one of the key takeaways of the recent Columbia analysis of how their numbers were overstating undergrad investment… universities simply lack established conventions on how to do this; it’s less of an issue when comparing to other universities but distortions will be more pronounced when comparing to LACs where necessarily 100% of the funds and faculty focus go to educating the undergrad population).


I disagree as the methodology used by the WSJ/THE 2022 college rankings focuses on areas that are fair to both National Universities and to Liberal Arts Colleges.

The 4 weighted areas used: Outcomes 40%, Resources 30%, Engagement 20%, and Environment 10%

https://timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/wall-street-journal-times-higher-education-college-rankings-2022


In the case of an LAC, 100% of the resources (30%) go to the undergrads.

In the case of the university, we don’t really know how much of a budget or a professor’s office or research time goes to an undergrad vs the grad student, we only know they prioritize the latter but that the metrics used by WSJ don’t explain if or how they account for that difference.


You make very strong arguments in favor of SLACs with high endowments or high endowments per student (or am i reading too much into your well reasoned comments ?).

I agree that some will prefer a near 100% focus on undergraduate education in a more intimate setting rather than attending a much larger school with a significant presence of graduate students.

Among elite Private National Universities, some student populations are about 50% undergraduate and 50% graduate students (Northwestern University is an example where grad students may outnumber undergrads), but this provides more resources and engenders a serious academic environment.

It would be interesting to list the top 20 private National Universities by percentage of grad students & undergraduates.


You are not misreading, and I appreciate the kind words.

I don’t know of a listing that sorts NUs by undergrad percentage. However, my impression is that split was a factor many used when responding to the USNWR survey specifically asking for focus on undergrad teaching. You've probably seen it, but here's the link:

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

I would agree NUs with a large percentage of undergrads offer an interesting compromise (as do LACs with traditions in encouraging undergrad research). Research opportunities can be very rewarding for the sufficiently motivated and undeterred. At the large universities, the trick it seems is not giving up after the first couple years of overpacked lecture halls and (comparatively) aloof profs.


I have several family members who have attended a variety of elite Private National Universities and experienced few large classes and many classes with fewer than 20 students--often fewer than 12 students. Northwestern, Chicago, Columbia, Duke, Brown, and a couple of others.


I believe you, but I think it tends to be a bigger issue in the sciences where the large nature of certain introductory courses factors as much or more into the “weeding” than the course content. There’s some data for this in the CDS (assuming one isn’t dealing with a school that opts not to publish!).

Average class size data is useful but has to be considered carefully when schools report. A school that has 1 class of 99 students and 1 class of 1 student can claim an average class size of 50 even though 99% of the students experience double that. This is why one reason why some schools have so many barely attended classes. It pulls the average down in a way that may not represent the typical experience.



US News Best Colleges breaks class size down to "percentage of classes under 20 students" and "percentage of classes over 50 students". To the best of my knowledge, US News does not use "average class size" in its ratings and ranking system.

Among the top 50 National Universities, the Univ. of California schools have a lot of classes of 50 or more students.

Many Private National Universities among the US News Best Colleges top 50 report high percentages (65% or more) of classes with fewer than 20 students. Whether or not this includes break-out sections and labs from large lecture classes is not clear, but it is reasonable to assume that they are included.

My understanding is that the large classes at National Universities tend to be introductory courses in the sciences--with small sections of break-out classes and labs which may often be led by a graduate PhD student--and large intro classes in psychology and sometimes intro econ courses.



Yes, that's how US News does it. When I was saying some colleges report average class size, I meant on their own websites. For example, if you go to UPenn's Facts and Figures page, they report the average class size for the College of Arts and Sciences is 15. They don't specify if that's a mean or a median, and they don't offer an average class size for Wharton or for the School of Engineering, where I imagine faculty have higher average salaries.

But even how US News does it can be misleading. Applying their approach to the earlier example (one class of 1 student and one of 99), US News would count that as 50% of courses under 20 even though a given student is 99 time more likely to be taking a course over 50 students.

It's a tricky problem. The best thing imo is to examine the actual enrollment info for courses at a college that is being seriously considered. Different schools share different amounts of information. A private university known for undergraduate teaching focus (per US News) like Princeton puts that info in the public domain where enrollment and total seats for current and up to 3 years back can be examined on an individual course basis can be examined. An LAC known for the same like Carleton also does that (current plus 5 years back). When I check for Harvard or UPenn, that appears to require a student login.





Most of what USNWR uses in rankings is either just from people largely regurgitating the rprevious year's ratings (reputation score) or from data that can be manipulated in one way or another (class size, resources, selectivity).


There's some truth to that. But I would still consider US News to be the most useful and influential of the rankings. All rankings are flawed. But by doing theirs the longest and having been under the microscope for decades due to the outweighted influence they have, they've actually revised and improved their methodology over the years based on critical feedback to a degree newer and usually less transparent rankings simply haven't. Also, the newer rankings would have zero market if they concluded US News were correct. Whoever went first could focus on getting it right and not on simply being different than what had come before.

That said, don't rely on a single ranking for a college decision! Even US News literally says "You should not use the rankings as the sole basis for deciding on one school over another. The rankings are a source of useful information about colleges than might otherwise be hard to obtain and can help narrow your search to a small number of colleges that are a good fit." In other words, they are intended to be a starting point in the search process. For that, they are not bad. It's the lack of further research and insecurities of certain consumers that causes the nutty behavior to focus on rank above all else.


It isn't a ranking per se, but I think Princeton Review has a lot more valuable information.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The book notes 5 star UCLA's strongest programs as:

Computer Science, Engineering, English, Fine Arts, Mathematics, Performing Arts, Political Science, and Psychology.

UCLA seems like an interesting community.

Overall, this college guidebook loves the UC system with 4 UCs receiving the second highest academic rating (4.5 stars) and one (UCLA) receiving a full 5 star rating for academics.

Many seem to underestimate the quality of the University of Virginia. Univ. of Virginia is an outstanding university.

When I wrote the first two posts in this thread, I thought that there would be strong reaction to rating the academics of UC-Berkeley the same as for Boston University and the Univ. of Florida, and Boston College.

To really stir things up, I will list the SLACs that earned a 4.5 star academic rating (same as UC-Berkeley) :

Smith College, Wesleyan University, Bucknell University, Bates College, Univ. of Richmond, Scripps College, Colgate University, Colby College, Colorado College, College of the Holy Cross, Lafayette College, Union College, Vassar College, & Grinnell College.

Th three authors of the book all have earned doctorates--two PhDs and an EdD.


The thing is, a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal. Nearly any school has adequate resources to teach bachelors level material. If a student can find engaged faculty and peers and access to the programs that they are interested in, they can do great from anywhere. While I would never advise a kid to choose BU or UVA over Cal for a PhD program in most sciences, they can absolutely get just as good of an undergraduate education at any of these schools, and many, many others.


Regarding the assertion that "a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal", my response is that it can be depending upon the particular school and upon the particular major.


There are certain majors and certain schools which are "a big deal" at the undergraduate level.

My position is that if accepted to any of these schools, one should do everything within reason to attend:

Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, CalTech, Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs.


LOL wtf remove Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs

CMU is not it exept for CS.
only handful of people want to go to the military places and lifstyle


It is reasonable to assume that those who apply to the service academies and are accepted want to go there as evidenced by their yield rates.

Your suggestion to remove CMU & Harvey Mudd from the list suggests that you should examine further the graduates career results from both schools.


Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) is the top undergraduate feeder school to the top dozen or so employers in the tech industry both by total graduates placed and when such placement is adjusted for undergraduate enrollment.

Top feeders to tech industry when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment:

1) Carnegie Mellon University
2) Stanford
3) CalTech
4) Harvey Mudd
5) Columbia
6) MIT
7) Georgia Tech
8) USC
9) Rice
10) Duke
11) Princeton
12) UCal-Berkeley
13) Cornell
14) Brown
15) U Penn
16) Harvard
17) U Washington--Seattle
18) Santa Clara
19) Northwestern
20) Northeastern (Boston)
21) Swarthmore
22) Yale
23) UC-San Diego
24) Illinois
25) WashUStL
26) Johns Hopkins
27) UCLA
28) U Waterloo
29) U Chicago
30) Michigan


What's the source?
We got this - https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-tech

1
Carnegie Mellon University
2
Columbia University
3
Stanford University
4
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
5
California Institute of Technology
6
Harvey Mudd College
7
Georgia Institute of Technology
8
University of Southern California
9
Rice University
10
Harvard University
11
Duke University
12
Cornell University
13
Northeastern University
14
University of California, Berkeley
15
University of Pennsylvania
16
Princeton University
17
Brown University
18
Santa Clara University
19
Northwestern University
20
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
21
Swarthmore College
22
University of California, San Diego
23
University of Washington
24
Yale University
25
Washington University
26
Johns Hopkins University
27
University of Chicago
28
University of California, Los Angeles
29
University of Waterloo
30
University of Michigan

BTW is there another Northeastern somewher else? why (Boston)?
CMU is top of the top for CS, but not automatic go to school for any other majors.
There is no automatic go to school for mediocre majors unless you are super rich.


Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The book notes 5 star UCLA's strongest programs as:

Computer Science, Engineering, English, Fine Arts, Mathematics, Performing Arts, Political Science, and Psychology.

UCLA seems like an interesting community.

Overall, this college guidebook loves the UC system with 4 UCs receiving the second highest academic rating (4.5 stars) and one (UCLA) receiving a full 5 star rating for academics.

Many seem to underestimate the quality of the University of Virginia. Univ. of Virginia is an outstanding university.

When I wrote the first two posts in this thread, I thought that there would be strong reaction to rating the academics of UC-Berkeley the same as for Boston University and the Univ. of Florida, and Boston College.

To really stir things up, I will list the SLACs that earned a 4.5 star academic rating (same as UC-Berkeley) :

Smith College, Wesleyan University, Bucknell University, Bates College, Univ. of Richmond, Scripps College, Colgate University, Colby College, Colorado College, College of the Holy Cross, Lafayette College, Union College, Vassar College, & Grinnell College.

Th three authors of the book all have earned doctorates--two PhDs and an EdD.


The thing is, a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal. Nearly any school has adequate resources to teach bachelors level material. If a student can find engaged faculty and peers and access to the programs that they are interested in, they can do great from anywhere. While I would never advise a kid to choose BU or UVA over Cal for a PhD program in most sciences, they can absolutely get just as good of an undergraduate education at any of these schools, and many, many others.


Regarding the assertion that "a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal", my response is that it can be depending upon the particular school and upon the particular major.


There are certain majors and certain schools which are "a big deal" at the undergraduate level.

My position is that if accepted to any of these schools, one should do everything within reason to attend:

Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, CalTech, Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs.


LOL wtf remove Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs

CMU is not it exept for CS.
only handful of people want to go to the military places and lifstyle


It is reasonable to assume that those who apply to the service academies and are accepted want to go there as evidenced by their yield rates.

Your suggestion to remove CMU & Harvey Mudd from the list suggests that you should examine further the graduates career results from both schools.


Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) is the top undergraduate feeder school to the top dozen or so employers in the tech industry both by total graduates placed and when such placement is adjusted for undergraduate enrollment.

Top feeders to tech industry when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment:

1) Carnegie Mellon University
2) Stanford
3) CalTech
4) Harvey Mudd
5) Columbia
6) MIT
7) Georgia Tech
8) USC
9) Rice
10) Duke
11) Princeton
12) UCal-Berkeley
13) Cornell
14) Brown
15) U Penn
16) Harvard
17) U Washington--Seattle
18) Santa Clara
19) Northwestern
20) Northeastern (Boston)
21) Swarthmore
22) Yale
23) UC-San Diego
24) Illinois
25) WashUStL
26) Johns Hopkins
27) UCLA
28) U Waterloo
29) U Chicago
30) Michigan


What's the source?
We got this - https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-tech

1
Carnegie Mellon University
2
Columbia University
3
Stanford University
4
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
5
California Institute of Technology
6
Harvey Mudd College
7
Georgia Institute of Technology
8
University of Southern California
9
Rice University
10
Harvard University
11
Duke University
12
Cornell University
13
Northeastern University
14
University of California, Berkeley
15
University of Pennsylvania
16
Princeton University
17
Brown University
18
Santa Clara University
19
Northwestern University
20
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
21
Swarthmore College
22
University of California, San Diego
23
University of Washington
24
Yale University
25
Washington University
26
Johns Hopkins University
27
University of Chicago
28
University of California, Los Angeles
29
University of Waterloo
30
University of Michigan

BTW is there another Northeastern somewher else? why (Boston)?
CMU is top of the top for CS, but not automatic go to school for any other majors.
There is no automatic go to school for mediocre majors unless you are super rich.




Oh Northeastern beat Berkeley on this too
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The book notes 5 star UCLA's strongest programs as:

Computer Science, Engineering, English, Fine Arts, Mathematics, Performing Arts, Political Science, and Psychology.

UCLA seems like an interesting community.

Overall, this college guidebook loves the UC system with 4 UCs receiving the second highest academic rating (4.5 stars) and one (UCLA) receiving a full 5 star rating for academics.

Many seem to underestimate the quality of the University of Virginia. Univ. of Virginia is an outstanding university.

When I wrote the first two posts in this thread, I thought that there would be strong reaction to rating the academics of UC-Berkeley the same as for Boston University and the Univ. of Florida, and Boston College.

To really stir things up, I will list the SLACs that earned a 4.5 star academic rating (same as UC-Berkeley) :

Smith College, Wesleyan University, Bucknell University, Bates College, Univ. of Richmond, Scripps College, Colgate University, Colby College, Colorado College, College of the Holy Cross, Lafayette College, Union College, Vassar College, & Grinnell College.

Th three authors of the book all have earned doctorates--two PhDs and an EdD.


The thing is, a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal. Nearly any school has adequate resources to teach bachelors level material. If a student can find engaged faculty and peers and access to the programs that they are interested in, they can do great from anywhere. While I would never advise a kid to choose BU or UVA over Cal for a PhD program in most sciences, they can absolutely get just as good of an undergraduate education at any of these schools, and many, many others.


Regarding the assertion that "a bachelor's degree is just not a big deal", my response is that it can be depending upon the particular school and upon the particular major.


There are certain majors and certain schools which are "a big deal" at the undergraduate level.

My position is that if accepted to any of these schools, one should do everything within reason to attend:

Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, CalTech, Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs.


LOL wtf remove Carnegie Mellon University, Harvey Mudd College, USMA at West Point, USNA at Annapolis, & the USAFA at Colorado Springs

CMU is not it exept for CS.
only handful of people want to go to the military places and lifstyle


It is reasonable to assume that those who apply to the service academies and are accepted want to go there as evidenced by their yield rates.

Your suggestion to remove CMU & Harvey Mudd from the list suggests that you should examine further the graduates career results from both schools.


Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) is the top undergraduate feeder school to the top dozen or so employers in the tech industry both by total graduates placed and when such placement is adjusted for undergraduate enrollment.

Top feeders to tech industry when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment:

1) Carnegie Mellon University
2) Stanford
3) CalTech
4) Harvey Mudd
5) Columbia
6) MIT
7) Georgia Tech
8) USC
9) Rice
10) Duke
11) Princeton
12) UCal-Berkeley
13) Cornell
14) Brown
15) U Penn
16) Harvard
17) U Washington--Seattle
18) Santa Clara
19) Northwestern
20) Northeastern (Boston)
21) Swarthmore
22) Yale
23) UC-San Diego
24) Illinois
25) WashUStL
26) Johns Hopkins
27) UCLA
28) U Waterloo
29) U Chicago
30) Michigan


Not "the top feeders to the tech industry" but maybe the "top feeders to a subset of positions at 12 companies we searched in LinkedIn." Big difference.

By their own admission they analyzed about 0.04% of the industry. Some might say that's a rounding error.

I think it's cool they did anything at all. The 12 companies they picked are interesting. But the positions tallied represent a vanishingly small piece of the pie. Like, the crumb that falls of the crumb you try to pick up with your fingers. It's important to describe data accurately.


I should be more accurate myself. They analyzed 70,000, or 0.04% of posted profiles. Every company has tech jobs these days so it's hard to say what the total tech industry size is, but some estimate 12.1m as of 2019. That would come to 0.6% of the market, not counting those who go overseas. A bigger crumb, but still a crumb!

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/us-tech-industry-had-12-1-million-employees-in-2019/

I should add I assume we are talking about some version of the College Transitions list. If not, the 70,000 figure could be different.
Anonymous
Bryn Mawr doesn't have a 4.5 or 5?
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