CES letters?

[Anonymous]

We are in a W feeder school and awaiting the letter, but my DC has always been in the 90+ percentile for math and reading WITHOUT supplementation. It's a significant disadvantage to us to be in a W feeder where it is assumed SES=parental involvement and supplementation, as now I'm convinced DC won't even be in the pool based on these responses and questioning why I didn't supplement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has MCPS done away with the 3 tranches of schools for local norming - high, medium and low farms? I just find it hard to believe that if they had to average the top 15% of students across all high SES schools, that the result would be 98/99%. I would totally believe it for individual small schools like Carderock or Bannockburn.

Very doubtful since there is a significant cohort, not too dissimilar, of highly able students in every middle school cluster. In fact, Pyle MS, which is in a high SES area and a W-feeder, has fewer highly able students than you'd expect because so many of their top students are enrolled in private school. This is according to a 2017-2018 survey by MCPS. It's a myth that high SES elementary schools, and W-feeders in general, have significantly more high MAP-scoring students than non-W-feeder elementary schools. And it's certainly a myth that most students in any particular elementary school score 98/99 percentile on MAP.

Not sure what you mean by Pyle because it has by far the highest number of highly able students according to at least one measure according to the only data points MCPS has published. Are you saying they should be even more? I guess if all the private school kids were at the public? I guess that's fair.
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/MS%20Magnet%20Field%20Test%20Data%20by%20Sending%20MS.pdf

Pyle is one of the biggest middle schools. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to take the size of the student body into account. When compared per capita, Pyle (and by extension Whitman) has a relatively lower percentage of highly able students. Pyle is a Potemkin village.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are in a W feeder school and awaiting the letter, but my DC has always been in the 90+ percentile for math and reading WITHOUT supplementation. It's a significant disadvantage to us to be in a W feeder where it is assumed SES=parental involvement and supplementation, as now I'm convinced DC won't even be in the pool based on these responses and questioning why I didn't supplement.

I think there is a little bit of paranoia going on. A lot of kids are in 90+ percentile (without supplementation) in non W feeder and dont end up in CES programs either. I see a lot of "my kid is white and from high SES, and a boy, and in the right feeder, so of course he wont be selected unless he has 99% this is so unfair". Well, my daughter is brown, in a high FARM school, is in 98% + in reading and above 90% in Math, and she didnt get a spot. Several other kids with very good grades didnt get in either. There simply isnt a spot for all good students. Which is normal, if you were taking all the +90% away and putting them in same classroom, the impact on average level of other classrooms would laso be bad.

i cannot say i like this system. Kids should get enrichment and challenging classes based on their aptitude in each field. Compacted math for ex. makes sense. Creating separate classrooms brings a lot of issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has MCPS done away with the 3 tranches of schools for local norming - high, medium and low farms? I just find it hard to believe that if they had to average the top 15% of students across all high SES schools, that the result would be 98/99%. I would totally believe it for individual small schools like Carderock or Bannockburn.

Very doubtful since there is a significant cohort, not too dissimilar, of highly able students in every middle school cluster. In fact, Pyle MS, which is in a high SES area and a W-feeder, has fewer highly able students than you'd expect because so many of their top students are enrolled in private school. This is according to a 2017-2018 survey by MCPS. It's a myth that high SES elementary schools, and W-feeders in general, have significantly more high MAP-scoring students than non-W-feeder elementary schools. And it's certainly a myth that most students in any particular elementary school score 98/99 percentile on MAP.

Not sure what you mean by Pyle because it has by far the highest number of highly able students according to at least one measure according to the only data points MCPS has published. Are you saying they should be even more? I guess if all the private school kids were at the public? I guess that's fair.
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/MS%20Magnet%20Field%20Test%20Data%20by%20Sending%20MS.pdf

Pyle is one of the biggest middle schools. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to take the size of the student body into account. When compared per capita, Pyle (and by extension Whitman) has a relatively lower percentage of highly able students. Pyle is a Potemkin village.

But that makes no difference for cohort. Cohort is still based on the raw number of kids at that school at a certain threshhold and that school had 137 for one of the categories which is much higher than any other school in the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has MCPS done away with the 3 tranches of schools for local norming - high, medium and low farms? I just find it hard to believe that if they had to average the top 15% of students across all high SES schools, that the result would be 98/99%. I would totally believe it for individual small schools like Carderock or Bannockburn.

Very doubtful since there is a significant cohort, not too dissimilar, of highly able students in every middle school cluster. In fact, Pyle MS, which is in a high SES area and a W-feeder, has fewer highly able students than you'd expect because so many of their top students are enrolled in private school. This is according to a 2017-2018 survey by MCPS. It's a myth that high SES elementary schools, and W-feeders in general, have significantly more high MAP-scoring students than non-W-feeder elementary schools. And it's certainly a myth that most students in any particular elementary school score 98/99 percentile on MAP.

Not sure what you mean by Pyle because it has by far the highest number of highly able students according to at least one measure according to the only data points MCPS has published. Are you saying they should be even more? I guess if all the private school kids were at the public? I guess that's fair.
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/MS%20Magnet%20Field%20Test%20Data%20by%20Sending%20MS.pdf

Pyle is one of the biggest middle schools. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to take the size of the student body into account. When compared per capita, Pyle (and by extension Whitman) has a relatively lower percentage of highly able students. Pyle is a Potemkin village.

But that makes no difference for cohort. Cohort is still based on the raw number of kids at that school at a certain threshhold and that school had 137 for one of the categories which is much higher than any other school in the county.

If you look upthread, you'll see that PP agrees there's a significant cohort of highly abled students in every middle school. But there are people on DCUM who repeatedly imply that some high SES schools are made up of a majority of these highly abled students. That's clearly not the case. They make up a minority share in every middle school, and in some cases, like Pyle, an even smaller percentage than its boosters would have you believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has MCPS done away with the 3 tranches of schools for local norming - high, medium and low farms? I just find it hard to believe that if they had to average the top 15% of students across all high SES schools, that the result would be 98/99%. I would totally believe it for individual small schools like Carderock or Bannockburn.

Very doubtful since there is a significant cohort, not too dissimilar, of highly able students in every middle school cluster. In fact, Pyle MS, which is in a high SES area and a W-feeder, has fewer highly able students than you'd expect because so many of their top students are enrolled in private school. This is according to a 2017-2018 survey by MCPS. It's a myth that high SES elementary schools, and W-feeders in general, have significantly more high MAP-scoring students than non-W-feeder elementary schools. And it's certainly a myth that most students in any particular elementary school score 98/99 percentile on MAP.

Not sure what you mean by Pyle because it has by far the highest number of highly able students according to at least one measure according to the only data points MCPS has published. Are you saying they should be even more? I guess if all the private school kids were at the public? I guess that's fair.
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/MS%20Magnet%20Field%20Test%20Data%20by%20Sending%20MS.pdf

Pyle is one of the biggest middle schools. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to take the size of the student body into account. When compared per capita, Pyle (and by extension Whitman) has a relatively lower percentage of highly able students. Pyle is a Potemkin village.

Very true, Pyle has almost 50% more students than any other high-school so as a percentage they have fewer highly gifted students than many other schools on that list.

[Anonymous]

MAP-R 245, Asian, Girl, waiting list. MCPS intent to reduce Asian population in CES, already in Middle School magnet, later in high school Magnet, if lottery is lottery, why Asian kid in these program drop significantly. PGCPS is the future of MCPS. The good thing is the house price will drop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MAP-R 245, Asian, Girl, waiting list. MCPS intent to reduce Asian population in CES, already in Middle School magnet, later in high school Magnet, if lottery is lottery, why Asian kid in these program drop significantly. PGCPS is the future of MCPS. The good thing is the house price will drop.

Not true. 3 out of 4 kids from our home school that ended up in CES are Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MAP-R 245, Asian, Girl, waiting list. MCPS intent to reduce Asian population in CES, already in Middle School magnet, later in high school Magnet, if lottery is lottery, why Asian kid in these program drop significantly. PGCPS is the future of MCPS. The good thing is the house price will drop.

There is an easy answer for that. Because the pool is bigger. The previous system took more or less the "top" 5%. The new system is a totally random lotter among the "top" 15%. Bigger pool is going to bring a more diverse group of kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current CES parent here. My kid qualified for the lottery last year and got a spot too. MAP-R was in the 94th percentile. Score was nowhere near the 230-240 range. I am now questioning whether he even belongs in CES.

Well, how is he doing so far?

Doing just fine. He is thriving in this program.

So, what... is the problem? Why would you be questioning whether he belongs?

Do people really think that a program designed with ~97-99th percentilers in mind would not be doable for nearly all 90th+ percentilers and the vast majority of 85th percentilers, etc.?

Or are you, PP, saying that while your kid is capable and thriving, you're questioning if he "deserves it?"

It's so hard for me to read this and not be concerned that some folks are so rigidly attached to numbers and status that those things would interfere with their perception of reality.

Typically, I think it is but some of this depends on the specific teacher. At our CES one of the two teachers had very high expectations and was demanding. The kids learned a lot but here was a lot of pushback from some parents who weren't happy their precious didn't get straight A's or had homework.

Right-- on average is all I meant. I just honestly don't understand the concern from someone whose kid is thriving and doing well. Why would a kid who is thriving and doing well in a situation not "belong?" I'm nonplussed.

Because he is not in 99th percentile or has upwards of 230 score on MAP-R. It was just a comment. Its not a ‘concern’ as such.

Okay, fine-- it's not meant as a gotcha, but you can understand why I took it as an (internal) question of some sort, rather than a comment, since you said, "I am now questioning whether he even belongs in CES." You are questioning it-- that implies there's more than one possible answer as to whether he should be there-- even if he's thriving. I also don't really understand why a kid who shows every sign of belonging (as a verb) to a group possibly wouldn't or shouldn't belong to it because of some arbitrary numbers you saw on a message board. Only other possibility is that you were never actually questioning it, it was just a sort of humblebrag. I'm not going to hound you, so I guess that will never make sense to me. Oh, well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has MCPS done away with the 3 tranches of schools for local norming - high, medium and low farms? I just find it hard to believe that if they had to average the top 15% of students across all high SES schools, that the result would be 98/99%. I would totally believe it for individual small schools like Carderock or Bannockburn.

Very doubtful since there is a significant cohort, not too dissimilar, of highly able students in every middle school cluster. In fact, Pyle MS, which is in a high SES area and a W-feeder, has fewer highly able students than you'd expect because so many of their top students are enrolled in private school. This is according to a 2017-2018 survey by MCPS. It's a myth that high SES elementary schools, and W-feeders in general, have significantly more high MAP-scoring students than non-W-feeder elementary schools. And it's certainly a myth that most students in any particular elementary school score 98/99 percentile on MAP.

Not sure what you mean by Pyle because it has by far the highest number of highly able students according to at least one measure according to the only data points MCPS has published. Are you saying they should be even more? I guess if all the private school kids were at the public? I guess that's fair.
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/MS%20Magnet%20Field%20Test%20Data%20by%20Sending%20MS.pdf

Pyle is one of the biggest middle schools. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to take the size of the student body into account. When compared per capita, Pyle (and by extension Whitman) has a relatively lower percentage of highly able students. Pyle is a Potemkin village.

Very true, Pyle has almost 50% more students than any other high-school so as a percentage they have fewer highly gifted students than many other schools on that list.

1. It's not a high school. 2. There are a lot of schools like Julius West that are only slightly smaller. 3. Look at Westland. Very few high performing students. 4. The percentage doesn't matter. Just the raw number.

[Anonymous]

It's like Montgomery Blair. What percentage of the school is magnet? What percentage of Einstein is VAC? Does it matter as long as your child is with a group of peers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MAP-R 245, Asian, Girl, waiting list. MCPS intent to reduce Asian population in CES, already in Middle School magnet, later in high school Magnet, if lottery is lottery, why Asian kid in these program drop significantly. PGCPS is the future of MCPS. The good thing is the house price will drop.

There is an easy answer for that. Because the pool is bigger. The previous system took more or less the "top" 5%. The new system is a totally random lotter among the "top" 15%. Bigger pool is going to bring a more diverse group of kids.

That's not even true-- or we don't know it's true. (Unfortunately IMO.) Does anyone have data for the CES demographics before and after the lottery?

UMC+, white and some Asian American groups are overrepresented in the top 15-25% of so-called academic achievers. So while underrepresented minorities, poorer kids, and so on show up in larger raw numbers in the top 15% than in the top 2%, there's actually not evidence that they show up in larger percentages.

That is, it may be true in MCPS that URMs (et al) only make up 10-20% of the 98th percentile +. But it may also be true that they only make up 10-20% of the 85th percentile+. So if you randomly select from the 85th percentile+, you get the same result, as a percentage of total spots in the CES. I said this upthread, actually, I think.

I'm not saying I know any of this for sure. But based on what I know about standardized tests and grades, it's not unlikely to be true. Very anecdotally, our school has seen no more diversity in whom is selected for CES pre-lottery and post-lottery. School is vast majority Black and Latino and the kids who get into CES every year are heavily white with maybe a kid of color, almost always Asian or maybe biracial (any race). Even if significantly more Black/Latino and lower SES kids now qualify for the pool, basically almost all the MC/UMC+ white kids do, so if it's a random selection from that group, it's still going to skew towards the wealthier and whiter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MAP-R 245, Asian, Girl, waiting list. MCPS intent to reduce Asian population in CES, already in Middle School magnet, later in high school Magnet, if lottery is lottery, why Asian kid in these program drop significantly. PGCPS is the future of MCPS. The good thing is the house price will drop.

There is an easy answer for that. Because the pool is bigger. The previous system took more or less the "top" 5%. The new system is a totally random lotter among the "top" 15%. Bigger pool is going to bring a more diverse group of kids.

That's not even true-- or we don't know it's true. (Unfortunately IMO.) Does anyone have data for the CES demographics before and after the lottery?

UMC+, white and some Asian American groups are overrepresented in the top 15-25% of so-called academic achievers. So while underrepresented minorities, poorer kids, and so on show up in larger raw numbers in the top 15% than in the top 2%, there's actually not evidence that they show up in larger percentages.

That is, it may be true in MCPS that URMs (et al) only make up 10-20% of the 98th percentile +. But it may also be true that they only make up 10-20% of the 85th percentile+. So if you randomly select from the 85th percentile+, you get the same result, as a percentage of total spots in the CES. I said this upthread, actually, I think.

I'm not saying I know any of this for sure. But based on what I know about standardized tests and grades, it's not unlikely to be true. Very anecdotally, our school has seen no more diversity in whom is selected for CES pre-lottery and post-lottery. School is vast majority Black and Latino and the kids who get into CES every year are heavily white with maybe a kid of color, almost always Asian or maybe biracial (any race). Even if significantly more Black/Latino and lower SES kids now qualify for the pool, basically almost all the MC/UMC+ white kids do, so if it's a random selection from that group, it's still going to skew towards the wealthier and whiter.

NP, completely anecdotal but my kid’s CES class is quarter boys (all white I think) and three quarters girls, with almost all of the girls not white. It’s a lottery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MAP-R 245, Asian, Girl, waiting list. MCPS intent to reduce Asian population in CES, already in Middle School magnet, later in high school Magnet, if lottery is lottery, why Asian kid in these program drop significantly. PGCPS is the future of MCPS. The good thing is the house price will drop.

There is an easy answer for that. Because the pool is bigger. The previous system took more or less the "top" 5%. The new system is a totally random lotter among the "top" 15%. Bigger pool is going to bring a more diverse group of kids.

That's not even true-- or we don't know it's true. (Unfortunately IMO.) Does anyone have data for the CES demographics before and after the lottery?

UMC+, white and some Asian American groups are overrepresented in the top 15-25% of so-called academic achievers. So while underrepresented minorities, poorer kids, and so on show up in larger raw numbers in the top 15% than in the top 2%, there's actually not evidence that they show up in larger percentages.

That is, it may be true in MCPS that URMs (et al) only make up 10-20% of the 98th percentile +. But it may also be true that they only make up 10-20% of the 85th percentile+. So if you randomly select from the 85th percentile+, you get the same result, as a percentage of total spots in the CES. I said this upthread, actually, I think.

I'm not saying I know any of this for sure. But based on what I know about standardized tests and grades, it's not unlikely to be true. Very anecdotally, our school has seen no more diversity in whom is selected for CES pre-lottery and post-lottery. School is vast majority Black and Latino and the kids who get into CES every year are heavily white with maybe a kid of color, almost always Asian or maybe biracial (any race). Even if significantly more Black/Latino and lower SES kids now qualify for the pool, basically almost all the MC/UMC+ white kids do, so if it's a random selection from that group, it's still going to skew towards the wealthier and whiter.

NP, completely anecdotal but my kid’s CES class is quarter boys (all white I think) and three quarters girls, with almost all of the girls not white. It’s a lottery.

Well, I am happy to take your anecdote at face value! That's great. Not as sure about the "it's a lottery" comment, though. Of course it is, and any number of things can happen because of that. All I'm suggesting is that the larger pool may be similar in percentage breakdown by race and class as ~the top 2% of years past. If that's so (if), then that means that while that at least creates the *possibility* of a more diverse group being selected (great IMO), it's not highly likely, statistically, that it will actually be significantly more diverse. I guess we just don't have the numbers and can't say.