Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with Shiv "joking" about killing Kendall. Raise your hand if you didn't think for a moment it was possible...yep. Bueller. Case closed.

Ken repeatedly and quite clearly said that he was “ a cog that only fit in one machine.” Not giving him the job quite clearly destroyed him. If the bodyguard hadn’t been with him in the end, he would have committed suicide. She joked about killing hi, amd then destroyed his soul and will to live.

Apparently they toyed with a scene of him climbing over the wall at the end. Glad they didn't do anything that literal. He was a hollow man who consistently made terrible decisions, and would simply deny that was the case whenever expedient. The writers were very deliberate in bringing up the waiter's death again this late in the game. They made it crystal clear he was not worthy of the big seat, and never was. Jeremy Strong was brilliant in making the character as dimensional and ambivalent as possible, but he was still a horrible horrible human being. Immature, self-centered, and grasping at every turn.

JS did an amazing job of portraying some warmth and inviting "little boy lost" sympathy from viewers, but ultimately yes he was a despicable human being. Which he revealed over and over again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Tom hates her and initially rejected her attempt at reconciliation earlier in the episode. He’s only with her in exchange for her vote.

DP but he already had her vote by the time he told her about the car waiting and held out his hand. He was the one to proffer some reconciliation once he was CEO.

And yet neither of them was even willing to actually hold the others hand. It’s suppose to be dark folks, not a happy ever after.

Tom is only the puppet CEO because he repeatedly betrayed Shiv, just as she repeatedly betrayed him (and her brothers).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Tom hates her and initially rejected her attempt at reconciliation earlier in the episode. He’s only with her in exchange for her vote.

DP but he already had her vote by the time he told her about the car waiting and held out his hand. He was the one to proffer some reconciliation once he was CEO.

I agree with PPs that both sides now see the possibility of salvaging the relationship with more equal power balance on both sides. He was always more committed to having children. Noone would ever envision a smooth path for these two, but at least there is a viable possibility. Her reluctance to fully take his hand brilliantly conveyed her ambivalence about all of it.

Yes, that final "failed" hand hold was amazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Tom hates her and initially rejected her attempt at reconciliation earlier in the episode. He’s only with her in exchange for her vote.

DP but he already had her vote by the time he told her about the car waiting and held out his hand. He was the one to proffer some reconciliation once he was CEO.

I agree with PPs that both sides now see the possibility of salvaging the relationship with more equal power balance on both sides. He was always more committed to having children. Noone would ever envision a smooth path for these two, but at least there is a viable possibility. Her reluctance to fully take his hand brilliantly conveyed her ambivalence about all of it.

Yes, that final "failed" hand hold was amazing.

But she did put her hand on his. I'd call it a start, not a fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with Shiv "joking" about killing Kendall. Raise your hand if you didn't think for a moment it was possible...yep. Bueller. Case closed.

Ken repeatedly and quite clearly said that he was “ a cog that only fit in one machine.” Not giving him the job quite clearly destroyed him. If the bodyguard hadn’t been with him in the end, he would have committed suicide. She joked about killing hi, amd then destroyed his soul and will to live.

Blaming that on Shiv is ridiculous. If Kendall kills himself because he can't be CEO of Waystar, that's not Shiv's fault for voting against him. If a person needs you to MAKE HIM CEO OF A GLOBAL COMPANY in order to have the will to live, then their problems are 100% their own and you are not obligated to just give it to them. Come on.

(not even a defense of Shiv, who is terrible in her own way, but just the idea of blaming her for Kendall's mental state at the end of the series is weird scapegoating -- he never did anything for Shiv and she didn't owe him that vote)

Not true that he never did anything for her, all three of them were there for one another outside of the urge to be the sole leader of the company, especially in this season when they all grieved together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with Shiv "joking" about killing Kendall. Raise your hand if you didn't think for a moment it was possible...yep. Bueller. Case closed.

Ken repeatedly and quite clearly said that he was “ a cog that only fit in one machine.” Not giving him the job quite clearly destroyed him. If the bodyguard hadn’t been with him in the end, he would have committed suicide. She joked about killing hi, amd then destroyed his soul and will to live.

Apparently they toyed with a scene of him climbing over the wall at the end. Glad they didn't do anything that literal. He was a hollow man who consistently made terrible decisions, and would simply deny that was the case whenever expedient. The writers were very deliberate in bringing up the waiter's death again this late in the game. They made it crystal clear he was not worthy of the big seat, and never was. Jeremy Strong was brilliant in making the character as dimensional and ambivalent as possible, but he was still a horrible horrible human being. Immature, self-centered, and grasping at every turn.

+1. I took the bodyguard to mean that he's never going to be able to commit suicide. He's going to live out his life as a shell of a man, despicable, never attaining his father's power, probably squandering money on stupid investments but still never really needing money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Tom hates her and initially rejected her attempt at reconciliation earlier in the episode. He’s only with her in exchange for her vote.

DP but he already had her vote by the time he told her about the car waiting and held out his hand. He was the one to proffer some reconciliation once he was CEO.

I agree with PPs that both sides now see the possibility of salvaging the relationship with more equal power balance on both sides. He was always more committed to having children. Noone would ever envision a smooth path for these two, but at least there is a viable possibility. Her reluctance to fully take his hand brilliantly conveyed her ambivalence about all of it.

Yes, that final "failed" hand hold was amazing.

But she did put her hand on his. I'd call it a start, not a fail.

Pp here, yes I'll go with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Tom hates her and initially rejected her attempt at reconciliation earlier in the episode. He’s only with her in exchange for her vote.

DP but he already had her vote by the time he told her about the car waiting and held out his hand. He was the one to proffer some reconciliation once he was CEO.

I agree with PPs that both sides now see the possibility of salvaging the relationship with more equal power balance on both sides. He was always more committed to having children. Noone would ever envision a smooth path for these two, but at least there is a viable possibility. Her reluctance to fully take his hand brilliantly conveyed her ambivalence about all of it.

Yes, that final "failed" hand hold was amazing.

But she did put her hand on his. I'd call it a start, not a fail.

PP again. Or maybe a truce. But not a fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

There's no "they" when it comes to ACN. Tom will be a figurehead for the amoral owner, and that's it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Tom hates her and initially rejected her attempt at reconciliation earlier in the episode. He’s only with her in exchange for her vote.

DP but he already had her vote by the time he told her about the car waiting and held out his hand. He was the one to proffer some reconciliation once he was CEO.

And yet neither of them was even willing to actually hold the others hand. It’s suppose to be dark folks, not a happy ever after.

Tom is only the puppet CEO because he repeatedly betrayed Shiv, just as she repeatedly betrayed him (and her brothers).

But then why not just drive off into the sunset on his own and have his lawyer reach out to hers about custody? I don’t think it will ever be a happy romance, and it is dark underneath. However, some part of them is still seeking connection from the other when they could have parted ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Tom hates her and initially rejected her attempt at reconciliation earlier in the episode. He’s only with her in exchange for her vote.

DP but he already had her vote by the time he told her about the car waiting and held out his hand. He was the one to proffer some reconciliation once he was CEO.

And yet neither of them was even willing to actually hold the others hand. It’s suppose to be dark folks, not a happy ever after.

Tom is only the puppet CEO because he repeatedly betrayed Shiv, just as she repeatedly betrayed him (and her brothers).

But then why not just drive off into the sunset on his own and have his lawyer reach out to hers about custody? I don’t think it will ever be a happy romance, and it is dark underneath. However, some part of them is still seeking connection from the other when they could have parted ways.

Because it shows she gave up the love of her siblings for something that was not there. All she had left was Tom, and they hate on another. There is no coming back from the party scene where their argument demonstrated theor relationship was irretrievably broken.

[Anonymous]

I don't think anyone is looking at it as Tom and Shiv getting a fairy tale ending. But I also think the idea that Shiv is "becoming her mother" or that she "gave" Tom CEO via the deal so she could be closer to power is off.

My read is that they are both deeply flawed and selfish/greedy people BUT unlike many others people on the show, have both self-awareness of this fact and also see each other with a lot of clarity. I think they could have a symbiotic relationship where they both use the marriage to get what they need and they are both realistic about the fact that they are, to some degree, being used by the other one. That's actually healthier than a lot of marriages.

[Anonymous]

Wonder what happens with the Pierce deal now?