Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

Throughout history, nations and territories have had to accept new governments and those in power. Civilized people in 2023 don't keep initiating bloody, barbaric battles over boundary lines.

So in the future if Israel is overrun. Israeli jews are forced in to the Gaza and treated the same way Palestinians are treat, you will be fine with it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

The West Bank isn’t ruled by violent jihadists but it hasn’t helped them. Of course it’s much easier to make up these stories rather than admit we want the land, all of it, and why don’t these Arabs just disappear!

In the early 2000s Jihadists certainly did exist in the West Bank suicide bombers (male and female ones) which is why Israel freaked out and gave them Gaza. It’s actually when West Bank became peaceful and stopped violence that guess what? Israeli settlers and IdF moved in and started killing them more frequently. Israel never rewarded them for being peaceful . Some West Bank residents who hate Hamas even decided to ask Israel for permission to permanently relocate to Gaza to be safe. Go figure. What message does that show Palestinians if now plenty of West Bank people who were jailed get released because of Hamas? The peaceful resistance gave them nothing with Israel . Israel should’ve gave them more benefits for being peaceful but they did the opposite in fact. Rewarding and allowing Hamas to become millionaires and build underground cities. How could concrete come into Gaza if there’s an air, land, and sea blockade and the tunnels to Egypt werent built yet? Simple. They bought the concrete from Israeli companies with Qatari cash. Netanyahu the bribe taker is notorious for this kind of wheel and dealing and he should be in jail if Israel does the right thing. He made the country so unsafe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

Actually, my sympathies are, on balance, with Israel because I believe that Palestinians created the current situation.

Their refusal to honor the initial 2 state solution and subsequent 80 years of terrorism is, in my view, the primary cause of the current conflict and misery.

So this is not a question of "emotional attachment" for me--it's a question of who bears responsibility.

It's also a case of believing that terror attacks targeted against civilians are unjust, regardless of circumstance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaza was never part of biblical Israel and Jews have never lived there. It was never even in original UN plan for Israel.
Israeli settlements are in the West Bank. Why fight the war in Gaza instead of the West Bank?
I get it that Hamas fighters crossed the border from Gaza to Israel and that there are some tunnels under the buildings, but so what?
Some of the soldiers could have been from the West Bank or the Palestinian refugee camp in Jordan
What is there to gain anymore?
Would the West Bank not have made more sense?

They just hate the Palestinians and enjoy killing civilians. What is the count up to 20,000?

And they would all be alive if Hamas hadn't invaded Israel and massacred all those people. Maybe that wasn't a great idea.

GTFO. Israel could have done this so many different ways. “It’s your fault I need to beat you” should be the new motto of the IDF. 96% of the WORLD agrees Israel is commiting war crimes but this gross deflection continues.

Self defense is a thing.

20,000 (and counting) to 1200 (half of which was friendly fire) is self defense? Israeli’s are depraved.

Yes, self defense. Every nation on earth would be doing the same thing.

It's terrible and tragic, and it's also the reality of how this stuff works.

Tell me which nation has killed nearly 10K children in two months in self defense?

The USA, Great Britain, France, every allied European nation, etc., etc.

NOPE. None has killed that many children in 2 months of war.

Check your WW2 stats

I did.

Apparently not: https://www.nationalww2museum.org/students-teachers/student-resources/research-starters/research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war

Why waste everyone's time?

Read carefully. Carefully. You posted TOTAL deaths over the course of SIX YEARS (civilian plus military), and the numbers do not separate out children's deaths of the civilian deaths. Again, name a single country that has killed 1000 children per week in war.

OMFG, you're being ridiculously obtuse and pedantic.

When did German civilian casualties commence? (Hint, not 1939). What percentage of the German civilian population was under the age of 18?

Apply this ratio to the total casualties over the appropriate period and you get...more than 1,000.

Or, if you're feeling lazy, simply consider Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

[Anonymous]

But there hasn't been 80 years of terrorism, and the reason for Nakba wasn't terrorism, it was because the early Zionists didn't believe the Jewish state was possible with a large Arab minority within it. It wasn't terrorism that drove Israel to steal land. It was their desire to have more land.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

This is very well-stated. I admit I fell into the "Existence of Israel" faction for much of my life. It was just the default view, so part of it was laziness. I thought if I didn't think that way, I might be considered antisemitic, so part of it was cowardice. I knew very little about the Palestinian experience or the history of the region, so part of it was ignorance. I felt Jews deserved compensation for the Holocaust, so part of it was misguided compassion that overlooked the rights of indigenous Palestinians. However, it's become increasingly difficult to ignore Israel's outrageous behavior and its appalling crimes against humanity. For me, it began with discomfort over settler violence in the West Bank. As I've delved further, my stance has shifted radically. Israel was built on terrorism and a fundamentalist interpretation of ancient texts that are almost certainly not historically valid and are not legally binding. Israel is currently a cynical, manipulative, and racist state that, unfortunately, has far too much in common with Nazi Germany. Like Nazi Germany, it is a technically advanced power that is determined to remove or exterminate people it finds "inferior" and inconvenient. Israel has become morally abhorrent and opposes 21st-century values of inclusion. I would prefer a Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. to Hamas, but terrorism has historically always been part of overthrowing colonialism. It is absolutely beyond the pale that the United States is propping up this fascist state and forcing its citizens to subsidize genocide.

Or, israel is a sovereign state with a very right wing government (a fact I agree is regrettable), living next door to radical jihadists. Hamas is not your friendly neighborhood victim.

Your views have indeed shifted and are quite radical.

Also, regarding your flawed comparison to Nazi germany, Germany did not cease to exist, as you seem to imply Israel should, after the end of the third Reich.

The bolded is pretty much my view.

F*ck Bibi and F*ck the Palestinian terrorist sympathizers.

[Anonymous]

Slowly but surely, Hamas is being defeated. This may annoy much of the “youth vote” in the US, as well as many academics, but there it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

Actually, my sympathies are, on balance, with Israel because I believe that Palestinians created the current situation.

Their refusal to honor the initial 2 state solution and subsequent 80 years of terrorism is, in my view, the primary cause of the current conflict and misery.

So this is not a question of "emotional attachment" for me--it's a question of who bears responsibility.

It's also a case of believing that terror attacks targeted against civilians are unjust, regardless of circumstance.

Serious question. You don’t think what Israel has done to them for 80 years constitutes terrorism? They don’t have an Iron Dome, have higher death counts -namely children, women, and elderly as homes get bombed. Is this not terrorism?

They even crossed state borders to go to Lebanon to do a massacre with a Lebanese Christian paramilitary . Massacres Israeli soldiers still have nightmares about . Three of the Hamas founders come from the Shatila Lebanese refugee camp-the same massacre where a pregnant Palestinian woman’s baby was cut out of her stomach and the Israeli soldiers betted on if it were a boy or a girl (an IDF soldier’s words-not a Palestinians words). It’s something when you have even Israeli ex soldiers and Holocaust survivors saying what their country is doing is wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Slowly but surely, Hamas is being defeated. This may annoy much of the “youth vote” in the US, as well as many academics, but there it is.

But what is the IDF creating to replace Hamas? There will be some very angry, traumatized, resentful young men and women growing up in Gaze over the next generation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:lol, by whom would Israel be occupied?germany was split into four territories occupied by the allied forces.

If Hamas “occupied” Israel that would be the end of Israelis. They are incapable of humanity. As bad as everyone claims Israel is, Hamas is far worse and is comprised of savage barbarians… yet everyone is in their favor. It’s beyond comprehension. And I say this as an anti settler, anti Netanyahu person. Yall have lost your minds.

lol you’re anti settler, okay: tell us, what sort of resistance tactics would you permit for Palestinians who suffer from settlers and the settlement movement? Guns? Rocks? Or like everyone else, sad songs?

Civil rights movement didn’t happen with terrorism. Neither did suffrage, or birth control or abortion. It occurred with peaceful activism and education and tolerance. You are falling over yourself to defend terrorism. And separately, the West Bank is not relevant to what’s happening in Gaza with Hamas, and your effort to conflate the two is an attempt to deflect from Hamas, an entity that is indefensible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slowly but surely, Hamas is being defeated. This may annoy much of the “youth vote” in the US, as well as many academics, but there it is.

But what is the IDF creating to replace Hamas? There will be some very angry, traumatized, resentful young men and women growing up in Gaze over the next generation.

This is true. That is why bibi has to go, settlers need to be reigned in, and there needs to be a two state solution. But that’s where I draw the line. No river to the sea bullish-t for me. And Israel has a right to defend itself, making a neighboring and radicalized Palestinian state very complicated, a truth and logistics of which the far left refuses to acknowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

Actually, my sympathies are, on balance, with Israel because I believe that Palestinians created the current situation.

Their refusal to honor the initial 2 state solution and subsequent 80 years of terrorism is, in my view, the primary cause of the current conflict and misery.

So this is not a question of "emotional attachment" for me--it's a question of who bears responsibility.

It's also a case of believing that terror attacks targeted against civilians are unjust, regardless of circumstance.

Serious question. You don’t think what Israel has done to them for 80 years constitutes terrorism? They don’t have an Iron Dome, have higher death counts -namely children, women, and elderly as homes get bombed. Is this not terrorism?

They even crossed state borders to go to Lebanon to do a massacre with a Lebanese Christian paramilitary . Massacres Israeli soldiers still have nightmares about . Three of the Hamas founders come from the Shatila Lebanese refugee camp-the same massacre where a pregnant Palestinian woman’s baby was cut out of her stomach and the Israeli soldiers betted on if it were a boy or a girl (an IDF soldier’s words-not a Palestinians words). It’s something when you have even Israeli ex soldiers and Holocaust survivors saying what their country is doing is wrong.

Serious answer:

I agree that many of Israel's actions, especially over the last 20 years, have been terrible.

That said, homes getting bombed, while horrible and sometimes criminal, is IMO a lesser evil than terrorism.

As for the war crimes committed by Israeli forces, I deplore them 100%.

If I had to summarize, I'd say this:

1. The Palestinians are largely responsible for starting/creating the conflict by rejecting UN resolution 181.

2. Israelis have behaved barbarously and criminally at times.

3. Most Palestinians' ultimate goal is the elimination of Israel and they are willing to continue to use terror and conflict as means to achieving this goal.

4. The Palestinians have turned down multiple offers of peace that, while imperfect, presented far better options than ongoing terror and conflict.

5. The current Israeli government and the Israeli right has no interest in peace with the Palestinians and is deliberately undermining the possibility of peace. They are willing to commit ethnic cleansing in order to expand Israel and are currently doing so in the West Bank (albeit in slow motion) and possibly Gaza (tbd).

6. My conclusion: both sides bear tremendous moral responsibility; the Palestinians had numerous chances to avoid all of this and failed to do so, b/c of #4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:lol, by whom would Israel be occupied?germany was split into four territories occupied by the allied forces.

If Hamas “occupied” Israel that would be the end of Israelis. They are incapable of humanity. As bad as everyone claims Israel is, Hamas is far worse and is comprised of savage barbarians… yet everyone is in their favor. It’s beyond comprehension. And I say this as an anti settler, anti Netanyahu person. Yall have lost your minds.

lol you’re anti settler, okay: tell us, what sort of resistance tactics would you permit for Palestinians who suffer from settlers and the settlement movement? Guns? Rocks? Or like everyone else, sad songs?

Civil rights movement didn’t happen with terrorism. Neither did suffrage, or birth control or abortion. It occurred with peaceful activism and education and tolerance. You are falling over yourself to defend terrorism. And separately, the West Bank is not relevant to what’s happening in Gaza with Hamas, and your effort to conflate the two is an attempt to deflect from Hamas, an entity that is indefensible.

In other words, you don't want Israel to be accountable for the evils it perpetrates in West Bank. Yah okay. Predictable.

Last time Palestinians had peaceful demonstrations, they got tear gassed, thrown in prison, or had their kneecaps shot. Hella recommendation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:lol, by whom would Israel be occupied?germany was split into four territories occupied by the allied forces.

If Hamas “occupied” Israel that would be the end of Israelis. They are incapable of humanity. As bad as everyone claims Israel is, Hamas is far worse and is comprised of savage barbarians… yet everyone is in their favor. It’s beyond comprehension. And I say this as an anti settler, anti Netanyahu person. Yall have lost your minds.

lol you’re anti settler, okay: tell us, what sort of resistance tactics would you permit for Palestinians who suffer from settlers and the settlement movement? Guns? Rocks? Or like everyone else, sad songs?

Civil rights movement didn’t happen with terrorism. Neither did suffrage, or birth control or abortion. It occurred with peaceful activism and education and tolerance. You are falling over yourself to defend terrorism. And separately, the West Bank is not relevant to what’s happening in Gaza with Hamas, and your effort to conflate the two is an attempt to deflect from Hamas, an entity that is indefensible.

In other words, you don't want Israel to be accountable for the evils it perpetrates in West Bank. Yah okay. Predictable.

Last time Palestinians had peaceful demonstrations, they got tear gassed, thrown in prison, or had their kneecaps shot. Hella recommendation.

In other words, this thread is called “the war in Gaza,” and not “settlements in the West Bank.” Maybe try developing a coherent and applicable argument for your POV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another woman was found dead today. Murdered by Hamas.

Very few twenty-something women were released in the latest hostage swap.

All you pro-Hamas posters are just misogynist pigs. What is wrong with you?

Agree that is horrific. IDF killed an average of 1000 children/week for the last two months. All you pro-IDF posters are just child murderers. What is wrong with you?

You're ridiculous.

Just pointing out that two can play this game. It's stupid to accuse those of us who are horrified by the IDF's rapid killing of thousands of children as pro-Hamas. Yes, the rape and murder of women in war is terrible. But it's utterly disingenuous when a pro-Israeli poster claims horror for the rapes of women but shows little sympathy, or even tries to justify, the slaughter of thousands of children. The IDF, one of the best, most advanced militaries in the world, deliberately chose to use dumb bombs in extremely dense urban areas. They killed babies in NICUs and families seeking refuge in churches rather than chose a military strategy that would be more precise.

You're right about Israel's conduct--I think that they've made some terrible strategic/tactical decisions. But there are also limits to exactly how "precise" a military campaign can be.

But you're also being disingenuous (or perhaps are legitimately unaware?) about exactly who's opposing Israel and their motives.

For example, are you aware that polling shows that 57% of American Muslims think Hamas was at least " somewhat justified" on 10/7?

Wanna guess what polling of Palestinians shows WRT the existence of Israel, violence vs. nonviolence, etc.?

You don't understand the audience. To you, the Existence of Israel as a Jewish State is a sacred cow, and everything and everyone must bow to it. To you, the original expulsions of 1947-48, the oppression, the unequal rights, the land grab, the settlement expansion, the imprisonment, the stripping of civil rights, the unrestrained killing by IDF are all unfortunate but minor events that must be discounted because Existence of Israel. Well guess what, American Muslims don't see it that way and Palestinians DEFINITELY don't see it that way. They don't agree with wholesale dismissal of what happened to them as "unfortunate but whatever". They don't agree it is a minor thing. They may not all agree that violence is entirely unjustified in response to oppression. And they don't see why they should just stop caring about what happened and what is happening to them today because Existence of Israel.

Your alliances and sympathies are with Israel because you understand them and feel closer to them. They don't. Okay.

Actually, my sympathies are, on balance, with Israel because I believe that Palestinians created the current situation.

Their refusal to honor the initial 2 state solution and subsequent 80 years of terrorism is, in my view, the primary cause of the current conflict and misery.

So this is not a question of "emotional attachment" for me--it's a question of who bears responsibility.

It's also a case of believing that terror attacks targeted against civilians are unjust, regardless of circumstance.

Serious question. You don’t think what Israel has done to them for 80 years constitutes terrorism? They don’t have an Iron Dome, have higher death counts -namely children, women, and elderly as homes get bombed. Is this not terrorism?

They even crossed state borders to go to Lebanon to do a massacre with a Lebanese Christian paramilitary . Massacres Israeli soldiers still have nightmares about . Three of the Hamas founders come from the Shatila Lebanese refugee camp-the same massacre where a pregnant Palestinian woman’s baby was cut out of her stomach and the Israeli soldiers betted on if it were a boy or a girl (an IDF soldier’s words-not a Palestinians words). It’s something when you have even Israeli ex soldiers and Holocaust survivors saying what their country is doing is wrong.

Serious answer:

I agree that many of Israel's actions, especially over the last 20 years, have been terrible.

That said, homes getting bombed, while horrible and sometimes criminal, is IMO a lesser evil than terrorism.

As for the war crimes committed by Israeli forces, I deplore them 100%.

If I had to summarize, I'd say this:

1. The Palestinians are largely responsible for starting/creating the conflict by rejecting UN resolution 181.

2. Israelis have behaved barbarously and criminally at times.

3. Most Palestinians' ultimate goal is the elimination of Israel and they are willing to continue to use terror and conflict as means to achieving this goal.

4. The Palestinians have turned down multiple offers of peace that, while imperfect, presented far better options than ongoing terror and conflict.

5. The current Israeli government and the Israeli right has no interest in peace with the Palestinians and is deliberately undermining the possibility of peace. They are willing to commit ethnic cleansing in order to expand Israel and are currently doing so in the West Bank (albeit in slow motion) and possibly Gaza (tbd).

6. My conclusion: both sides bear tremendous moral responsibility; the Palestinians had numerous chances to avoid all of this and failed to do so, b/c of #4.

LOL whereas Israel simply HAD to go and settle the West Bank? Simply HAD to practice administrative detention? Simply HAD to unleash crazy violent settlers?