Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 2018:

707 black kids got a 5 on AP CalcBC
19,710 Asian kids got a 5 on AP CalcBC

Herein lies the problem

In U.S. education based on the unique history of this country, I'm not surprised this gross disparity exists.

However in strictly looking at the zero sum dynamic of elite college admissions, it is supply and demand.

Those 707 black students - and black students of that caliber - are in extremely high demand.

When you see the news articles about a black kid getting accepted to ALL of the Ivies, this is the cohort.

So when detractors say that these same black kids at elite schools are " unqualified," no they are not.

?? Why would anyone say these kids who got 5 on AP Calc BC are not qualified? most of them are probably well qualified. However when we go color blind, they might not get in all of the Ivies. Race should not be treated as rare commodity. These kids are probably the biggest victims of Affirmative Action. They don’t get the credit they deserve.

These kids would absolutely benefit from affirmative action -- it uses race as only 1 factor to tip the scales when students are typically competitive. Without it, the number of African American students, based on this stat, would drop just by the odds of number of kids earning 5s on this AP. Then the schools lose out on diversity, and society loses out on leadership. There was an excellent argument made about integration in OCS and equity. Race has to be a factor to achieve equity at times.

"Society loses out on leadership" showing your bias that Asians can't be leaders.

You've misunderstood me (pp here). I am talking about groups that go un or underrepresented in leadership, using military officers as an example. It was a problem in the armed forces that had to be remedied by being race conscious (why I mentioned ocs). I am talking about including, not excluding. That is what the admissions offices are trying to do -- make sure the underrepresented minorities have some presence at these institutions. Have diverse representation in leadership because having different perspectives is important. No one is seeking to exclude other students.

Giving "presence" to one race, for racial reasons, of necessity excludes other students of other races. And you only have to look at the numbers to see that elite universities are consciously seeking to exclude Asians.

And all this leaves aside the question of whether "race consciousness" has improved our military leadership. Seems to me we haven't won a lot of wars lately...

The numbers prove the opposite. There is a far higher percentage of Asian American students in top colleges than the overall population.

No, the numbers clearly prove discrimination.

Asians students are disproportionately intelligent and hardworking relative to their numbers in the population. The proportion of Asians you would see at top colleges on the basis of merit would be far higher than it is - the numbers are lower than they should be because the top schools are discriminating against them. To put it in terms people in the DMV would understand, without discrimination the demographics at the top colleges would look like the demographics of TJ High School - 60 or 70% Asian.

More intelligent.. no that is not proven

Harder working … no that is not proven

Are obsessed with test prep… yes Asian and white prep school kids are obsessed with top $ tutors and test prep

“Intelligence” connotes something innate to some people, so leave that out. But Asians definitely have higher academic achievement and preparedness by college age, and definitely study harder. Data supports both. In particular one study has Asians studying 4x Blacks, and 2x Whites. Do you find this surprising? And do you think there is no link between studying and academic quality from an admissions standpoint?

Asians do not have higher achievement.

You think high test scores = high achievement. You actually think “study more” is something Harvard desires, they don’t. If you told me Asian study 10x less and get 10x high scores I’d be impressed. If it takes these Asians you have made up in your head 10x longer to learn the material perhaps they aren’t smart enough for Harvard.

Nobody GAF about studying hard and getting straight A’s. Once you are within the Ivy index you are “qualified”, then it takes something else to get accepted.

One thing we do know is that grades and changing the world (whether positive or negative) are not GPA/SAT related once you hit the Ivy index.

Harvard is not a “reward” for hard work, Harvard is not looking for a good hard worker. Harvard wants people who are in unicorns, that seem like they have some sort of je ne sais quoi.

That’s the problem with rule followers. You want to know the measurable equation to get into Harvard and thee isn’t one.

For example, the Parkland kids, they all have terrible GPAs and SAT scores. But they have something to offer that most kids can’t.

Mic drop. They are looking for change makers and leaders. Regardless of grades and regardless of race, too.

. Exactly, so no need to consider race, unless the schools take the position that students of particular races are inherently better change makers in ways that aren’t otherwise demonstrated in their experience as include in their applications.

[Anonymous]

Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 2018:

707 black kids got a 5 on AP CalcBC
19,710 Asian kids got a 5 on AP CalcBC

Herein lies the problem

In U.S. education based on the unique history of this country, I'm not surprised this gross disparity exists.

However in strictly looking at the zero sum dynamic of elite college admissions, it is supply and demand.

Those 707 black students - and black students of that caliber - are in extremely high demand.

When you see the news articles about a black kid getting accepted to ALL of the Ivies, this is the cohort.

So when detractors say that these same black kids at elite schools are " unqualified," no they are not.

?? Why would anyone say these kids who got 5 on AP Calc BC are not qualified? most of them are probably well qualified. However when we go color blind, they might not get in all of the Ivies. Race should not be treated as rare commodity. These kids are probably the biggest victims of Affirmative Action. They don’t get the credit they deserve.

These kids would absolutely benefit from affirmative action -- it uses race as only 1 factor to tip the scales when students are typically competitive. Without it, the number of African American students, based on this stat, would drop just by the odds of number of kids earning 5s on this AP. Then the schools lose out on diversity, and society loses out on leadership. There was an excellent argument made about integration in OCS and equity. Race has to be a factor to achieve equity at times.

"Society loses out on leadership" showing your bias that Asians can't be leaders.

You've misunderstood me (pp here). I am talking about groups that go un or underrepresented in leadership, using military officers as an example. It was a problem in the armed forces that had to be remedied by being race conscious (why I mentioned ocs). I am talking about including, not excluding. That is what the admissions offices are trying to do -- make sure the underrepresented minorities have some presence at these institutions. Have diverse representation in leadership because having different perspectives is important. No one is seeking to exclude other students.

Giving "presence" to one race, for racial reasons, of necessity excludes other students of other races. And you only have to look at the numbers to see that elite universities are consciously seeking to exclude Asians.

And all this leaves aside the question of whether "race consciousness" has improved our military leadership. Seems to me we haven't won a lot of wars lately...

The numbers prove the opposite. There is a far higher percentage of Asian American students in top colleges than the overall population.

No, the numbers clearly prove discrimination.

Asians students are disproportionately intelligent and hardworking relative to their numbers in the population. The proportion of Asians you would see at top colleges on the basis of merit would be far higher than it is - the numbers are lower than they should be because the top schools are discriminating against them. To put it in terms people in the DMV would understand, without discrimination the demographics at the top colleges would look like the demographics of TJ High School - 60 or 70% Asian.

More intelligent.. no that is not proven

Harder working … no that is not proven

Are obsessed with test prep… yes Asian and white prep school kids are obsessed with top $ tutors and test prep

“Intelligence” connotes something innate to some people, so leave that out. But Asians definitely have higher academic achievement and preparedness by college age, and definitely study harder. Data supports both. In particular one study has Asians studying 4x Blacks, and 2x Whites. Do you find this surprising? And do you think there is no link between studying and academic quality from an admissions standpoint?

Asians do not have higher achievement.

You think high test scores = high achievement. You actually think “study more” is something Harvard desires, they don’t. If you told me Asian study 10x less and get 10x high scores I’d be impressed. If it takes these Asians you have made up in your head 10x longer to learn the material perhaps they aren’t smart enough for Harvard.

Nobody GAF about studying hard and getting straight A’s. Once you are within the Ivy index you are “qualified”, then it takes something else to get accepted.

One thing we do know is that grades and changing the world (whether positive or negative) are not GPA/SAT related once you hit the Ivy index.

Harvard is not a “reward” for hard work, Harvard is not looking for a good hard worker. Harvard wants people who are in unicorns, that seem like they have some sort of je ne sais quoi.

That’s the problem with rule followers. You want to know the measurable equation to get into Harvard and thee isn’t one.

For example, the Parkland kids, they all have terrible GPAs and SAT scores. But they have something to offer that most kids can’t.

Mic drop. They are looking for change makers and leaders. Regardless of grades and regardless of race, too.

This!

Then they should have no problem going race blind, correct?

They won't. But then who will Asians blame when they still don't get in? Because if you guys think going race blind will change anyway, you're sadly mistaken. Maybe for a couple of years they will let a few more in yo make it look good, but Harvard wants who they want and its not 70% of any specific race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

If you have to work that hard are you really that smart?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

If you have to work that hard are you really that smart?

I am smart enough to know that working hard gives me better odds of success then relying on good fortune. I suspect you think you are smarter than that. Or maybe- just maybe, you believe you are entitled to success - lack of hard work notwithstanding

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

If you have to work that hard are you really that smart?

I am smart enough to know that working hard gives me better odds of success then relying on good fortune. I suspect you think you are smarter than that. Or maybe- just maybe, you believe you are entitled to success - lack of hard work notwithstanding

Elite schools are not looking for a hard worker. That is great I’m sure your boss is happy you work hard. Elite school want leaders, innovators, actors, athletes, musicians.

Congrats you are a wiz at studying, your state school will probably give you a scholarship so you’ll stay local and work hard for them until you die of a heart attack.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

If you have to work that hard are you really that smart?

I am smart enough to know that working hard gives me better odds of success then relying on good fortune. I suspect you think you are smarter than that. Or maybe- just maybe, you believe you are entitled to success - lack of hard work notwithstanding

Elite schools are not looking for a hard worker. That is great I’m sure your boss is happy you work hard. Elite school want leaders, innovators, actors, athletes, musicians.

Congrats you are a wiz at studying, your state school will probably give you a scholarship so you’ll stay local and work hard for them until you die of a heart attack.

Who told you leaders, innovators, actors, athletes, musicians don't work hard??
LMAO

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

Sorry, but the reality is that as long as many URM students attend segregation, underfunded schools, people who babble on about “caring more about education” are both racist and wrong. It’s too bad that so many people are doing threatened by what equity might mean for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

If you have to work that hard are you really that smart?

I am smart enough to know that working hard gives me better odds of success then relying on good fortune. I suspect you think you are smarter than that. Or maybe- just maybe, you believe you are entitled to success - lack of hard work notwithstanding

Elite schools are not looking for a hard worker. That is great I’m sure your boss is happy you work hard. Elite school want leaders, innovators, actors, athletes, musicians.

Congrats you are a wiz at studying, your state school will probably give you a scholarship so you’ll stay local and work hard for them until you die of a heart attack.

Ok. I don’t disagree with you that elite schools are looking for a special something that will never be captured by stats alone. Did you really need to be such a jerk about state schools though? I promise you there are highly qualified, motivated, intelligent leaders who ended up at their public flagship for a ton of reasons and not just because they are joyless tryhards. Gross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

Sorry, but the reality is that as long as many URM students attend segregation, underfunded schools, people who babble on about “caring more about education” are both racist and wrong. It’s too bad that so many people are doing threatened by what equity might mean for them.

Whut? then you probably think they are inherently less intelligent or something?
What a racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 2018:

707 black kids got a 5 on AP CalcBC
19,710 Asian kids got a 5 on AP CalcBC

Herein lies the problem

In U.S. education based on the unique history of this country, I'm not surprised this gross disparity exists.

However in strictly looking at the zero sum dynamic of elite college admissions, it is supply and demand.

Those 707 black students - and black students of that caliber - are in extremely high demand.

When you see the news articles about a black kid getting accepted to ALL of the Ivies, this is the cohort.

So when detractors say that these same black kids at elite schools are " unqualified," no they are not.

?? Why would anyone say these kids who got 5 on AP Calc BC are not qualified? most of them are probably well qualified. However when we go color blind, they might not get in all of the Ivies. Race should not be treated as rare commodity. These kids are probably the biggest victims of Affirmative Action. They don’t get the credit they deserve.

These kids would absolutely benefit from affirmative action -- it uses race as only 1 factor to tip the scales when students are typically competitive. Without it, the number of African American students, based on this stat, would drop just by the odds of number of kids earning 5s on this AP. Then the schools lose out on diversity, and society loses out on leadership. There was an excellent argument made about integration in OCS and equity. Race has to be a factor to achieve equity at times.

"Society loses out on leadership" showing your bias that Asians can't be leaders.

You've misunderstood me (pp here). I am talking about groups that go un or underrepresented in leadership, using military officers as an example. It was a problem in the armed forces that had to be remedied by being race conscious (why I mentioned ocs). I am talking about including, not excluding. That is what the admissions offices are trying to do -- make sure the underrepresented minorities have some presence at these institutions. Have diverse representation in leadership because having different perspectives is important. No one is seeking to exclude other students.

Giving "presence" to one race, for racial reasons, of necessity excludes other students of other races. And you only have to look at the numbers to see that elite universities are consciously seeking to exclude Asians.

And all this leaves aside the question of whether "race consciousness" has improved our military leadership. Seems to me we haven't won a lot of wars lately...

The numbers prove the opposite. There is a far higher percentage of Asian American students in top colleges than the overall population.

No, the numbers clearly prove discrimination.

Asians students are disproportionately intelligent and hardworking relative to their numbers in the population. The proportion of Asians you would see at top colleges on the basis of merit would be far higher than it is - the numbers are lower than they should be because the top schools are discriminating against them. To put it in terms people in the DMV would understand, without discrimination the demographics at the top colleges would look like the demographics of TJ High School - 60 or 70% Asian.

More intelligent.. no that is not proven

Harder working … no that is not proven

Are obsessed with test prep… yes Asian and white prep school kids are obsessed with top $ tutors and test prep

“Intelligence” connotes something innate to some people, so leave that out. But Asians definitely have higher academic achievement and preparedness by college age, and definitely study harder. Data supports both. In particular one study has Asians studying 4x Blacks, and 2x Whites. Do you find this surprising? And do you think there is no link between studying and academic quality from an admissions standpoint?

Asians do not have higher achievement.

You think high test scores = high achievement. You actually think “study more” is something Harvard desires, they don’t. If you told me Asian study 10x less and get 10x high scores I’d be impressed. If it takes these Asians you have made up in your head 10x longer to learn the material perhaps they aren’t smart enough for Harvard.

Nobody GAF about studying hard and getting straight A’s. Once you are within the Ivy index you are “qualified”, then it takes something else to get accepted.

One thing we do know is that grades and changing the world (whether positive or negative) are not GPA/SAT related once you hit the Ivy index.

Harvard is not a “reward” for hard work, Harvard is not looking for a good hard worker. Harvard wants people who are in unicorns, that seem like they have some sort of je ne sais quoi.

That’s the problem with rule followers. You want to know the measurable equation to get into Harvard and thee isn’t one.

For example, the Parkland kids, they all have terrible GPAs and SAT scores. But they have something to offer that most kids can’t.

Mic drop. They are looking for change makers and leaders. Regardless of grades and regardless of race, too.

This!

Then they should have no problem going race blind, correct?

They won't. But then who will Asians blame when they still don't get in? Because if you guys think going race blind will change anyway, you're sadly mistaken. Maybe for a couple of years they will let a few more in yo make it look good, but Harvard wants who they want and its not 70% of any specific race.

That's fine, then Harvard will get sued again for discriminating against Asians. They were 100% of a single race for quite a long time, but it's only a problem when it's Asians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

If you have to work that hard are you really that smart?

I am smart enough to know that working hard gives me better odds of success then relying on good fortune. I suspect you think you are smarter than that. Or maybe- just maybe, you believe you are entitled to success - lack of hard work notwithstanding

Nobody is impressed by the hardest worker bee.

[Anonymous]

these colleges want kids who are
1) brilliant - your kid likely is not
2) really, really smart AND _____ (fill in blank: leader, athlete, invented)
3) famous and smart enough to get by
4) rich, connect and smart enough to get by
5) did something amazing (like the Parkland survivor activist) and smart enough to get by

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:these colleges want kids who are
1) brilliant - your kid likely is not
2) really, really smart AND _____ (fill in blank: leader, athlete, invented)
3) famous and smart enough to get by
4) rich, connect and smart enough to get by
5) did something amazing (like the Parkland survivor activist) and smart enough to get by

So no need to ask for race right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but, if you want to increase the number of certain race at competitive colleges, only way is to make them care more about education, put more efforts, and work harder.

Sorry that's the realtiy, and it should be the way.

If you have to work that hard are you really that smart?

I am smart enough to know that working hard gives me better odds of success then relying on good fortune. I suspect you think you are smarter than that. Or maybe- just maybe, you believe you are entitled to success - lack of hard work notwithstanding

Nobody is impressed by the hardest worker bee.

That is totally fine. Nobody is trying to impress you.