AAP Equity report

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why is this called an "Equity" report. Gifted Education is based on the assumption that everyone is not of equal intelligence, equal ability.

Because it is assumed that kids of all races are gifted but some are undiscovered.

Then why do they have to lower standards for some particular races in order to call them gifted or advanced?

The report stated that all races had similar means and ranges for test scores. There was no recommendation to change that.

I don't see your repeated claim about this is true. Using NNAT scores as the example:

Mean scores for all students: Asian=113.6, White=107.5, Black=97.6
Mean scores for Level 4 eligibles: Asian=129, White=118, Black=111
Max scores for Level 4 eligibles: Asian=160, White=160, Black=142

I don't think these can be called "similar".

You forgot to put in the MINIMUM scores for all Level 4 eligible students:
WHITE = 70 (this is the 2nd percentile rank!!!!) , Asian = 93, Black = 85

You forgot to put in the MINIMUM scores for all Level 4 eligible students:
WHITE = 70 (this is the 2nd percentile rank!!!!) , Asian = 93, Black = 85

Many of these likely had WISC or other test that was high. You all have way too much trust that this number from a single administration of a group test tells you much.

Why is it when a score from a white student is low, it is discounted, but not if a score from an URM is low? Outside testing like the WISC should NOT be allowed. It rigs the system in favor of affluent households. Then add in GRBS which the report flat out states is biased.
The largest group of students who are being missed are kids on FARM. I think the report says only 6% qualified. I think the district as a whole is almost 30% FARMS.

I have two 2E kids so I’m going to disagree with you on not allowing the WISC.

That said you do have a point I think, that even when they try to expand it to URMs, it’s the middle to upper middle class who mainly benefit as opposed to FARMs. They should probably look into that. It’s a real issue at TJ.

This is another huge problem. How is it that 21% of students in AAP have 504 plans that entitle them to accommodations like extra time when in the district only 1% have 504 plans? Who qualifies for 504 plans is ridiculous. 89% are not socially disadvantaged. Of students who have 504 plans 79% are white and 17% are Hispanic. That adds up to 96%- meaning that Blacks and Asians are completely underrepresented. If an affluent white child tests average on the COGAT they must have a disability. Poor kids get average and it is assumed that is their potential.

A report on special education/504 states:
Gifted Status
Overall, 19.1% of all students at APS are identified as Gifted. Gifted students are underrepresented in the areas of IEPs (6%) and IATs (8%). Conversely, they are somewhat overrepresented in the area of Section 504 (25%).
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/APS-Sped-Final-Report-1.18-1.pdf

If you think about asynchronous development of gifted children, I don’t it’s a mistake that that many kids in AAP have a 504 plan or IEP. Frankly, I think the AAP program is most needed for those kids as opposed to any others. If your kid is just regular old smart as opposed to 2E they are the ones that can probably do fine in Gen Ed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just wish they could have taken maybe one quarter Of the pages, time, and other resources devoted to equity in AAP to just evaluate AAP. Is the program successful? Is it helpful or serving needs? How inconsistent is it? How does it compare to gen ed? We can make changes to who gets in or how, but that is not very meaningful without some of that information.

Totally agree.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why is this called an "Equity" report. Gifted Education is based on the assumption that everyone is not of equal intelligence, equal ability.

Because it is assumed that kids of all races are gifted but some are undiscovered.

Then why do they have to lower standards for some particular races in order to call them gifted or advanced?

Because the tests are biased. Whatever Verbal is (I don’t prep my kids so I don’t actually know) I think inherently focuses on words common in white upbringing.

Somehow 1st generation asian immigrants, who don't come from an english language environment don't have that problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you arguing that it's illegal for schools to group the above average kids together, so instead schools should label the above average kids as gifted and have them attend an entirely different school? How does that make sense, and how is that not a worse violation of federal law?

I'm beginning to agree with the authors of the study that parent referrals, appeals, and any parental contributions to the packet need to go. AAP shouldn't be used as a tool by privileged, somewhat above average kids to flee from the poor kids.

I guess AP/honors classes must be illegal?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Poor kids deserve an opportunity to develop to their full potential just like more privileged kids, but that’s difficult to do when stuck in a classroom that moves at a snail’s pace. If a bright student has never been exposed to more advanced material, he/she will score lower on achievement tests like the CogAT than similar students from wealthier schools.

Fairfax should implement school-based norms (i.e. top 10% at each school is in-pool) as recommended in the report and develop a local level IV program at every ES, which would address this issue. And yes, parent referrals should be eliminated.

Stupid idea. This is what they did in Texas for equality. I taught at UT Austin and have never had such disparate student abilities in any other school. Literal geniuses on one end of the class and on the other end a poor hispanic kid that honestly shouldn't be in college at all and can barely write a sentence.

My sister lives in Texas and she has friends who moved to a shitty part of town to put their very average kids in a shitty high school so they had a shot at being in the top 10% of the class and could get in to UT (and obviously because they had money and it was a shitty school, they hired tutors up the wazoo for their kids and signed them up for all the enrichment programs).

This is probably what would end up happening here - people would move to a shitty part of the county so that their kids could get into AAP and then leave for the center in 4th grade (and probably move somewhere nicer too since then their kid is already in).

Thanks for the business model idea!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you arguing that it's illegal for schools to group the above average kids together, so instead schools should label the above average kids as gifted and have them attend an entirely different school? How does that make sense, and how is that not a worse violation of federal law?

I'm beginning to agree with the authors of the study that parent referrals, appeals, and any parental contributions to the packet need to go. AAP shouldn't be used as a tool by privileged, somewhat above average kids to flee from the poor kids.

I guess AP/honors classes must be illegal?

AP/honors classes are open enrollment. Anyone from any race or any intelligence level is permitted to enroll.

[Anonymous]

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That said you do have a point I think, that even when they try to expand it to URMs, it’s the middle to upper middle class who mainly benefit as opposed to FARMs. They should probably look into that. It’s a real issue at TJ.

This is another huge problem. How is it that 21% of students in AAP have 504 plans that entitle them to accommodations like extra time when in the district only 1% have 504 plans? Who qualifies for 504 plans is ridiculous. 89% are not socially disadvantaged. Of students who have 504 plans 79% are white and 17% are Hispanic. That adds up to 96%- meaning that Blacks and Asians are completely underrepresented. If an affluent white child tests average on the COGAT they must have a disability. Poor kids get average and it is assumed that is their potential.

A report on special education/504 states:
Gifted Status
Overall, 19.1% of all students at APS are identified as Gifted. Gifted students are underrepresented in the areas of IEPs (6%) and IATs (8%). Conversely, they are somewhat overrepresented in the area of Section 504 (25%).
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/APS-Sped-Final-Report-1.18-1.pdf

Privileged white people are good at gaming the system. They can't accept that their kids are in the average range, so instead they shop for a psychologist to label their kids with a disability, so they can get a 504. Then, they prep for the CogAT while pretending that they're not prepping. Their kids still get 115-120ish scores, but they parent refer in droves and craft packets designed to get their average or slightly above average kids in.

White kids are overrepresented in 504s. They're also overrepresented in parent referrals, with a ratio near 1:2 for in-pool: referrals. I'm not bothered by the schools lowering the standard for URMs, since the biggest culprits of gaming the system and shoving their unqualified kids in are upper middle class white people.

Before anyone accuses me of racism, I am white and socialize with plenty of other white people. Every kid in my neighborhood was found AAP eligible. Most of those kids are somewhat above average, got 120-ish test scores after prepping (yes, people talked about prepping at the bus stop), had their parents spend a lot of time crafting the parent referrals, and got in. Many of them are now convinced that their kids are "gifted," despite their kids' low SOL and IAAT scores.

Maybe... just maybe, those same parents want something more challenging for their kids than the default offering. I'd say if parents want more academic rigor, give it to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Privileged white people are good at gaming the system. They can't accept that their kids are in the average range, so instead they shop for a psychologist to label their kids with a disability, so they can get a 504. Then, they prep for the CogAT while pretending that they're not prepping. Their kids still get 115-120ish scores, but they parent refer in droves and craft packets designed to get their average or slightly above average kids in.

White kids are overrepresented in 504s. They're also overrepresented in parent referrals, with a ratio near 1:2 for in-pool: referrals. I'm not bothered by the schools lowering the standard for URMs, since the biggest culprits of gaming the system and shoving their unqualified kids in are upper middle class white people.

Before anyone accuses me of racism, I am white and socialize with plenty of other white people. Every kid in my neighborhood was found AAP eligible. Most of those kids are somewhat above average, got 120-ish test scores after prepping (yes, people talked about prepping at the bus stop), had their parents spend a lot of time crafting the parent referrals, and got in. Many of them are now convinced that their kids are "gifted," despite their kids' low SOL and IAAT scores.

Maybe... just maybe, those same parents want something more challenging for their kids than the default offering. I'd say if parents want more academic rigor, give it to them.

I agree completely with the second sentence. I'd love to see more rigor in both AAP and gen ed.

For the first sentence, I think that's the reason Asian parents prep their kids and push them into AAP. It's not the case for many white parents. They don't want more rigor. They are the ones who want AAP watered down so their snowflakes don't struggle. They're the ones whining that AAP math is too fast. They're the ones looking for reassurance after their kid gets a 430 on a SOL test or isn't on grade level in iready that their kid still totally is gifted and belongs in AAP. At least among the people I know, the base school is very strong and offers advanced math in 3rd, above grade reading groups, high quality pull-outs for LIII, and other neat opportunities only for the LIII kids. These parents don't want that. They desperately want the label. They need to believe that their average range kids are gifted, but either "have a disability" that they shopped for or are "bad test takers." I've literally had a parent tell me that she prepped her Larla for the test, Larla still got only a 120, but the committee saw something special in her packet and recognized Larla's giftedness.

[Anonymous]

DS is bored at school, he is in second grade and was accepted into AAP. He was in-pool but we answered the parent questionnaire and turned in work samples showing him build marble runs built from multiple toy pieces and using drums to bounce marbles from one section to another. We were interested in guaranteeing the advanced math option and level III services at the base school. We would like more rigor for him but we understand the concept of balance. He Participates in STEM based after school extras, robotics, coding, chess, and has logic books at home. He plays a sport every season and has some other physical activities he enjoys that he does. He asks to do these things. When he says he is not interested, he stops.

We don’t do any extra math tutoring or prep. He would do great if we but him in it, he has been flying through Khan with distance learning, but I don’t see the benefit of his being more bored at school by advancing him in math several grade levels. We have asked him if he wants to do extra math because he enjoys it when he plays math games at home but he says no.

Some parents demanding more rigor are people who have been pushing their kids ahead in math using Khan, Beast Academy, Kumon or similar programs. You choose to put your kid into those programs and advance them. Don’t think that they are extra special because you have added 5 hours or more of extra schooling so that they are ahead of their peers.

It is not a surprise that kids who have been tutored since they were in pre-k or kindergarten do great on the NNAT or CoGAT. It is not a surprise that my kid ho has been able to participate in extra curricular activities, has been read to every day, has been watching science and history shows on tv, and has access to books of all sorts did well on the NNAT and CogAT. It is not a surprise that kids with fewer opportunities do worse. Those tests are not really testing giftedness.

Your kid is no more gifted then mine. Your kid is better prepped then mine. And my kid was better prepped then the average kid at a Title 1 school.

Everyone can get off their high horses about how special their kid is. We won’t have a clue about who is really gifted and who isn’t for a while. And I don’t care if my kid slows your kid down in math as long as my kid is successfully completing the curriculum. If you have been sending your kid to tutoring programs for the last bunch of years, you created that gap. It has nothing to do with nayive intelligence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS is bored at school, he is in second grade and was accepted into AAP. He was in-pool but we answered the parent questionnaire and turned in work samples showing him build marble runs built from multiple toy pieces and using drums to bounce marbles from one section to another. We were interested in guaranteeing the advanced math option and level III services at the base school. We would like more rigor for him but we understand the concept of balance. He Participates in STEM based after school extras, robotics, coding, chess, and has logic books at home. He plays a sport every season and has some other physical activities he enjoys that he does. He asks to do these things. When he says he is not interested, he stops.

We don’t do any extra math tutoring or prep. He would do great if we but him in it, he has been flying through Khan with distance learning, but I don’t see the benefit of his being more bored at school by advancing him in math several grade levels. We have asked him if he wants to do extra math because he enjoys it when he plays math games at home but he says no.

Some parents demanding more rigor are people who have been pushing their kids ahead in math using Khan, Beast Academy, Kumon or similar programs. You choose to put your kid into those programs and advance them. Don’t think that they are extra special because you have added 5 hours or more of extra schooling so that they are ahead of their peers.

It is not a surprise that kids who have been tutored since they were in pre-k or kindergarten do great on the NNAT or CoGAT. It is not a surprise that my kid ho has been able to participate in extra curricular activities, has been read to every day, has been watching science and history shows on tv, and has access to books of all sorts did well on the NNAT and CogAT. It is not a surprise that kids with fewer opportunities do worse. Those tests are not really testing giftedness.

Your kid is no more gifted then mine. Your kid is better prepped then mine. And my kid was better prepped then the average kid at a Title 1 school.

Everyone can get off their high horses about how special their kid is. We won’t have a clue about who is really gifted and who isn’t for a while. And I don’t care if my kid slows your kid down in math as long as my kid is successfully completing the curriculum. If you have been sending your kid to tutoring programs for the last bunch of years, you created that gap. It has nothing to do with nayive intelligence.

There is a big jump up between 2nd and 3rd grade for all students. Most kids are bored in 2nd grade.

You can't judge your base school or center school by 2nd grade at all.

[Anonymous]

^^ Stop generalizing. I would've gladly kept my above average child at our newly minted Title 1 base school had they maintained the rigor and expectations. Instead, they slowly removed things like reading logs, incentives, homework and heck, even being prepared for PE class. My older child qualified on test scores and went to the center where he regularly received feedback on homework and was required to read teacher assigned novels. He was surrounded by those who challenged him and had involved parents. More importantly, he was happy there.

I referred my second child (one of the subscores was just under the threshold) who was accepted at the center. If the base school stopped the mentality of "if everyone isn't doing it, then nobody will", we would have wanted to stay.

[Anonymous]

If so many kids are so easily getting 2 or 3 grade levels ahead in math, doesn't that suggest that the pacing is too slow in the first place? Gifted kids should be more than capable of being at least 3 grade levels ahead. AAP math is a mere one grade level ahead, and between AAP kids and gen ed advanced math kids, it serves 40% of the FCPS students. The benchmark to be placed in gen ed advanced math is only around a 115 CogAT Q, and the AAP and advanced math classes are paced for a kid with around a 115 IQ. This pace is way to slow for 99th percentile kids. It's reasonable for parents to want a gifted level math class and not just an above average math class.

Even grade skipping doesn't help because the pace is so slow within each class. Mine skipped 2nd grade math and 4th AAP math. He was still bored out of his mind, because the other kids in AAP required too much repetition to grasp the concepts.

[Anonymous]

Second grade is not easy for many kids. There are plenty of kids who are not getting 4’s and a good number with 2’s. DS has plenty of friends who are receiving extra attention from the teacher. He has some friends at Kumon to help them stay on grade level.

The people posting here are lucky that we are worrying about more advanced materials.

I happen to be someone who struggled in ES due to learning disabilities. School was hard. I ended up in AP classes and earning a PhD. I am thrilled that DS needs different services then I did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If so many kids are so easily getting 2 or 3 grade levels ahead in math, doesn't that suggest that the pacing is too slow in the first place? Gifted kids should be more than capable of being at least 3 grade levels ahead. AAP math is a mere one grade level ahead, and between AAP kids and gen ed advanced math kids, it serves 40% of the FCPS students. The benchmark to be placed in gen ed advanced math is only around a 115 CogAT Q, and the AAP and advanced math classes are paced for a kid with around a 115 IQ. This pace is way to slow for 99th percentile kids. It's reasonable for parents to want a gifted level math class and not just an above average math class.

Even grade skipping doesn't help because the pace is so slow within each class. Mine skipped 2nd grade math and 4th AAP math. He was still bored out of his mind, because the other kids in AAP required too much repetition to grasp the concepts.

One of the failings of public schools is that it just can't teach every kid at his or her exact level. It fails most of the kids on either end of the bell curve. That's why people supplement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If so many kids are so easily getting 2 or 3 grade levels ahead in math, doesn't that suggest that the pacing is too slow in the first place? Gifted kids should be more than capable of being at least 3 grade levels ahead. AAP math is a mere one grade level ahead, and between AAP kids and gen ed advanced math kids, it serves 40% of the FCPS students. The benchmark to be placed in gen ed advanced math is only around a 115 CogAT Q, and the AAP and advanced math classes are paced for a kid with around a 115 IQ. This pace is way to slow for 99th percentile kids. It's reasonable for parents to want a gifted level math class and not just an above average math class.

Even grade skipping doesn't help because the pace is so slow within each class. Mine skipped 2nd grade math and 4th AAP math. He was still bored out of his mind, because the other kids in AAP required too much repetition to grasp the concepts.

One of the failings of public schools is that it just can't teach every kid at his or her exact level. It fails most of the kids on either end of the bell curve. That's why people supplement.

But FCPS isn't even trying. There is one math level in K-2. There are only 2 math levels in 3-6: above average and average/below average. Advanced math and regular math. That seems appropriate for base schools that don't have AAP, but it's absurd that they're busing kids to a different school and gathering kids who are higher ability, just to give them the same advanced math that's available for 40% of FCPS kids. If AAP kids don't need services beyond regular advanced math and reading groups that are one year above grade level, then there's no reason to have AAP at all. Those services are already available in gen ed at the base schools and are already needed by any kids who are above average. There is enough of a critical mass of kids who are beyond that in FCPS, especially when AAP centers are absorbing kids from many schools.