Books on Russians

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stalin died in 1953. Who the heck remembers what it was like in 1953?!

People whose family members were killed by Stalin?

Wouldn't most of them be dead by now? The family members that were of age to remember things from back then? Or super old? I am almost 50, and my grandparents are all dead. My dad passed away, and he was born in 1938, my mom was born in 1947, I bet you she only "remembers" things wrongly from when she was 8!

Yes, but efforts to memorialize them and publicize what happened—most notably by Memorial—have been largely repressed by the Kremlin, which has helped feed the neutral to positive impressions most Russians have of Stalin. The country simply hasn’t had a full scale reckoning with what he did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article talks about how state propaganda helps feed a sense of nostalgia about what people think life was like under Stalin: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-47975704

If you look at a Russian textbook used in schools (which I have), you’ll see these messages echoed.

I don't know what to tell you. I have a niece who's a freshman in college, so her school experience is pretty recent. She reports that Stalin was covered in very critical terms as recently as two years ago. Read less BBC, talk to more people.

Where does she go to school?

I did talk to people and read the actual textbooks. I have a copy of one in my house. Did you read the Levada poll I posted? The majority of Russians see Stalin in neutral or positive terms. That was as of this March.

In Moscow, as it were. Smack in the middle of it all!

LOOLLL

You’ve got to be joking. Of course things are different in Moscow!! That’s a center of elites. You can’t generalize for the rest of Russian education based on someone’s experience in Moscow. The Levada poll is just one of a million pieces of evidence to substantiate that.

You really don’t know much about that country.

Is it your contention that schoolchildren in Moscow use their own special textbooks?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article talks about how state propaganda helps feed a sense of nostalgia about what people think life was like under Stalin: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-47975704

If you look at a Russian textbook used in schools (which I have), you’ll see these messages echoed.

I don't know what to tell you. I have a niece who's a freshman in college, so her school experience is pretty recent. She reports that Stalin was covered in very critical terms as recently as two years ago. Read less BBC, talk to more people.

Where does she go to school?

I did talk to people and read the actual textbooks. I have a copy of one in my house. Did you read the Levada poll I posted? The majority of Russians see Stalin in neutral or positive terms. That was as of this March.

In Moscow, as it were. Smack in the middle of it all!

LOOLLL

You’ve got to be joking. Of course things are different in Moscow!! That’s a center of elites. You can’t generalize for the rest of Russian education based on someone’s experience in Moscow. The Levada poll is just one of a million pieces of evidence to substantiate that.

You really don’t know much about that country.

Is it your contention that schoolchildren in Moscow use their own special textbooks?

Actually yes, to an extent. There’s a range of approved textbooks and they vary in their presentation. It also comes down to the teacher and teachers in Moscow, Petersburg, Ekaterinburg, and other large cities tend to be more liberal (in the Russian sense) than in other parts of the country. The environment in these places is just very different.

Look at how the political opposition does in Moscow vs the rest of the country as another example of how different Moscow is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Actually yes, to an extent. There’s a range of approved textbooks and they vary in their presentation. It also comes down to the teacher and teachers in Moscow, Petersburg, Ekaterinburg, and other large cities tend to be more liberal (in the Russian sense) than in other parts of the country. The environment in these places is just very different.

Look at how the political opposition does in Moscow vs the rest of the country as another example of how different Moscow is.

You're really bending it here to suit your narrative, you know. Just the fact that there is a RANGE of approved textbooks that "vary in their presentation" doesn't really jibe with the message of dictatorial control you're trying to push.

I'll have you know, furthermore, that I was in school in the late eighties, far in the provinces, and at that time we already had free discussion in history classes about all the horrors of that period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually yes, to an extent. There’s a range of approved textbooks and they vary in their presentation. It also comes down to the teacher and teachers in Moscow, Petersburg, Ekaterinburg, and other large cities tend to be more liberal (in the Russian sense) than in other parts of the country. The environment in these places is just very different.

Look at how the political opposition does in Moscow vs the rest of the country as another example of how different Moscow is.

You're really bending it here to suit your narrative, you know. Just the fact that there is a RANGE of approved textbooks that "vary in their presentation" doesn't really jibe with the message of dictatorial control you're trying to push.

I'll have you know, furthermore, that I was in school in the late eighties, far in the provinces, and at that time we already had free discussion in history classes about all the horrors of that period.

I never said the Kremlin had total control. I said they’ve TRIED and the polling shows they’ve been largely successful.

This largely started in the last 20 years, so your experience in the 80s isn’t relevant. Of course you learned about it during that time. This is a more recent phenomenon.

[Anonymous]

Here’s the poll again.

If discussion is so open now, explain to me these numbers. Also, as you can see, public opinion about Stalin has gotten more positive since 2001. That’s the trend I’m talking about.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/04/16/uroven-odobreniya-stalina-rossiyanami-pobil-istoricheskij-rekord/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Do you not get that the notion that Stalin brought good things to Russians and so should be considered with nostalgia is a myth? Memorial produced a video about exactly that point and also more generally about the myths that underpin public opinion regarding Stalin.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/06/10/funktsii-mifa-o-chem-govorit-nam-dinamika-massovogo-otnosheniya-k-stalinu/

I am well aware of the wonderful work Memorial is doing. They are very well known.

You are just going to have to live with the fact that different people can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions. And that different people can experience life differently. You seem put out that these damn Russians just won't feel and think the way you want them to feel and think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the poll again.

If discussion is so open now, explain to me these numbers. Also, as you can see, public opinion about Stalin has gotten more positive since 2001. That’s the trend I’m talking about.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/04/16/uroven-odobreniya-stalina-rossiyanami-pobil-istoricheskij-rekord/

Very simple - life in the "new Russia" has been bad enough for enough people to view the past nostalgically, or make them appreciate things about the past that they took for granted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Do you not get that the notion that Stalin brought good things to Russians and so should be considered with nostalgia is a myth? Memorial produced a video about exactly that point and also more generally about the myths that underpin public opinion regarding Stalin.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/06/10/funktsii-mifa-o-chem-govorit-nam-dinamika-massovogo-otnosheniya-k-stalinu/

I am well aware of the wonderful work Memorial is doing. They are very well known.

You are just going to have to live with the fact that different people can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions. And that different people can experience life differently. You seem put out that these damn Russians just won't feel and think the way you want them to feel and think.

Huh? I’m simply pointing out facts — if you are to believe Levada, which I do.

Also, the Memorial people risk their lives to change Russian public opinion about Stalin, so this is hardly something just foreigners want to impose.

Lastly, my grandparents escaped Stalin’s repressions to come to the USA, so I have a personal stake in this as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the poll again.

If discussion is so open now, explain to me these numbers. Also, as you can see, public opinion about Stalin has gotten more positive since 2001. That’s the trend I’m talking about.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/04/16/uroven-odobreniya-stalina-rossiyanami-pobil-istoricheskij-rekord/

Very simple - life in the "new Russia" has been bad enough for enough people to view the past nostalgically, or make them appreciate things about the past that they took for granted.

That doesn’t make sense. Standards of living in Russia improved throughout the same time public opinion about Stalin also improved. This is the Putin era I’m talking about, not the 90s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the poll again.

If discussion is so open now, explain to me these numbers. Also, as you can see, public opinion about Stalin has gotten more positive since 2001. That’s the trend I’m talking about.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/04/16/uroven-odobreniya-stalina-rossiyanami-pobil-istoricheskij-rekord/

Very simple - life in the "new Russia" has been bad enough for enough people to view the past nostalgically, or make them appreciate things about the past that they took for granted.

That doesn’t make sense. Standards of living in Russia improved throughout the same time public opinion about Stalin also improved. This is the Putin era I’m talking about, not the 90s.

Standards of living didn't improve for everyone at the same rate, and it's not all about the sausage you know.

It might not make sense to you but it might for others. You are not the only person in the universe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the poll again.

If discussion is so open now, explain to me these numbers. Also, as you can see, public opinion about Stalin has gotten more positive since 2001. That’s the trend I’m talking about.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/04/16/uroven-odobreniya-stalina-rossiyanami-pobil-istoricheskij-rekord/

Very simple - life in the "new Russia" has been bad enough for enough people to view the past nostalgically, or make them appreciate things about the past that they took for granted.

That doesn’t make sense. Standards of living in Russia improved throughout the same time public opinion about Stalin also improved. This is the Putin era I’m talking about, not the 90s.

Standards of living didn't improve for everyone at the same rate, and it's not all about the sausage you know.

It might not make sense to you but it might for others. You are not the only person in the universe.

Overall they absolutely did improve. Your explanation simply doesn’t make sense. Show me evidence that people in Russia largely think their lives have gotten worse under Putin and then I’ll believe you. I can show you Levada and FOM polling that reflects the opposite sentiment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Do you not get that the notion that Stalin brought good things to Russians and so should be considered with nostalgia is a myth? Memorial produced a video about exactly that point and also more generally about the myths that underpin public opinion regarding Stalin.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/06/10/funktsii-mifa-o-chem-govorit-nam-dinamika-massovogo-otnosheniya-k-stalinu/

I am well aware of the wonderful work Memorial is doing. They are very well known.

You are just going to have to live with the fact that different people can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions. And that different people can experience life differently. You seem put out that these damn Russians just won't feel and think the way you want them to feel and think.

Huh? I’m simply pointing out facts — if you are to believe Levada, which I do.

Also, the Memorial people risk their lives to change Russian public opinion about Stalin, so this is hardly something just foreigners want to impose.

Lastly, my grandparents escaped Stalin’s repressions to come to the USA, so I have a personal stake in this as well.

Fighting the windmills on an anonymous website is a strange way to plant a personal stake - just what is it exactly you are trying to accomplish.

You are but one person. My orphaned mother, aunts and uncles were saved from the life on the street during that time so should I have a personal stake in this? Nope. I am simply open to the possibility that it's a huge country with lots of people who all have their own stories and human experiences, and these stories are what they are, and not what you'd like them to be. Life is not written in black and white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Do you not get that the notion that Stalin brought good things to Russians and so should be considered with nostalgia is a myth? Memorial produced a video about exactly that point and also more generally about the myths that underpin public opinion regarding Stalin.

https://www.levada.ru/2019/06/10/funktsii-mifa-o-chem-govorit-nam-dinamika-massovogo-otnosheniya-k-stalinu/

I am well aware of the wonderful work Memorial is doing. They are very well known.

You are just going to have to live with the fact that different people can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions. And that different people can experience life differently. You seem put out that these damn Russians just won't feel and think the way you want them to feel and think.

Huh? I’m simply pointing out facts — if you are to believe Levada, which I do.

Also, the Memorial people risk their lives to change Russian public opinion about Stalin, so this is hardly something just foreigners want to impose.

Lastly, my grandparents escaped Stalin’s repressions to come to the USA, so I have a personal stake in this as well.

Fighting the windmills on an anonymous website is a strange way to plant a personal stake - just what is it exactly you are trying to accomplish.

You are but one person. My orphaned mother, aunts and uncles were saved from the life on the street during that time so should I have a personal stake in this? Nope. I am simply open to the possibility that it's a huge country with lots of people who all have their own stories and human experiences, and these stories are what they are, and not what you'd like them to be. Life is not written in black and white.

I am working off of reliable polling showing the neutral to positive sentiments most Russians feel towards this man. I am working off of what Memorial people and other activists say about how much the authorities suppress objective discourse on his crimes.

Are you prepared to offer me evidence to the contrary that is more than a couple of anecdotes? I’ve heard one anecdote of a Moscow university student. Other than that, no one has provided actual evidence to substantiate their arguments.

[Anonymous]

I am Russian, and have lived there for 30+ years before moving to the US (I am 40+).
While unfortunately I can not recommend a particular book, here are my random thoughts:
- most people and books tend to either romanticize or overly criticize Russians and Russia, and it is hard to find a middle ground;
- the most vocal opinions come from people who have very marginal relationship with Russia (unfortunately these opinions also lack in depth). They might be spending considerable time trying to understand it, yet only scratch the surface and do not realize that due to thinking they are in some unique position to offer their opinion (may have lived there for a bit or their parents are from there etc).
- Russia is neither unique nor mysterious (see point one). It has its fair share of the good and the bad just like all countries.
- it is much more useful to study the country from a practical point of view, e.g. that smiling less does not mean people are less friendly; that people are usually more direct than in the US (“less polite”); that there is a degree of admiration towards white foreigners and really ugly racism toward non-white ones.

In general, it is best to stay very very concrete when trying TK understand the Russians’ behavior, and avoid looking for “deep” historical causation.
Just my take on it, of course I might be missing an important outside perspective...