Reducing the academic load to play elite soccer.

[Anonymous]

You need better high school. It does not have to be four wasted educational years. You can take college level courses for credit in many high school and the credits are transferable. More importantly the material in interesting and challenging. Part of the value of AP and Honors course is they attract students who are more interested in engaging with the material so the course can move faster and be more intellectual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need better high school. It does not have to be four wasted educational years. You can take college level courses for credit in many high school and the credits are transferable. More importantly the material in interesting and challenging. Part of the value of AP and Honors course is they attract students who are more interested in engaging with the material so the course can move faster and be more intellectual.

It doesn't matter once a kid is in college. Just like the soccer doesn't matter after they quit playing either after HS or after college. AP just is not the pinnacle of life and once in college the impact of AP classes fades away very quickly.

All that matters is getting into the school. AP classes is one way, a mix of AP, Honors and sports is another way. Eventually, in both cases the kids will succeed or fail on their own.

[Anonymous]

Head thump.

Why do people think this is just about AP and having the same meaningless argument about AP?

It’s about an overall reduction in academics—a refocusing on sports over academics whether it be a weaker school, fewer Advanced classes, tutors etc.

Forrest : trees.
SMH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need better high school. It does not have to be four wasted educational years. You can take college level courses for credit in many high school and the credits are transferable. More importantly the material in interesting and challenging. Part of the value of AP and Honors course is they attract students who are more interested in engaging with the material so the course can move faster and be more intellectual.

It doesn't matter once a kid is in college. Just like the soccer doesn't matter after they quit playing either after HS or after college. AP just is not the pinnacle of life and once in college the impact of AP classes fades away very quickly.

All that matters is getting into the school. AP classes is one way, a mix of AP, Honors and sports is another way. Eventually, in both cases the kids will succeed or fail on their own.

We just have to agree to disagree. IMO more matters then getting into the school. Good luck to your player.

[Anonymous]

We have a similar debate in our house. Our kid is currently playing DA but is also one of the top 3 kids in her school academically. Maintaining an A+ average basically and playing a DA schedule is increasingly difficult. We are likely going to dial down the athletics as she wants to go to medical school after college. We will play high school soccer and aim for a captaincy there and whatever awards she can gather.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Harvard lawsuit has been quite interesting as it relates to this discussion. Now I know “HARVARD” is not exactly representative of all schools, and a kid trying to play soccer at UMD or UVA or Nebraska or whatever isn’t necessarily going to be judged the same, but due to the fact the discovery process has released so much information it’s worth looking over.

From what has been released, the admissions process assigns a score of 1-6 in a variety of fields, such as academics and athletics.

* A “1” is given to athletes with “national or international or Olympic level” recognition or to a player specifically recruited by a coach. Less than 1% of of the kids are given an athletic 1. A look at the Harvard roster will show more than a few kids who have had Youth National Team call ups or even worked out with professional sides overseas. 0.9% of applicants had an athletic -1-, but 88% of kids with an athletic 1 are admitted even if no other -1-s in any other field.

* A “2” is given to an athlete with state or regional recognition or awards or someone with a leadership role in their secondary school team. 9.2% of applicants had an athletic -2-. This a state cup winner with a club side or a captain of a high school team.

* A “3” is given to people who actively participate.

* A “4” is little or no interest in sport.

* A “5” is kind of unique in that it is for kids who have a substantial out of school commitment that precludes them from sports, such as holding down a full time job to support the family or a significant extra curricular activity.

* A “6” is for those who are physically unable to compete.

By way of comparison, an Academic “1” is given to a “Genuine scholar; near-perfect scores and grades (in most cases) combined with unusual creativity and possible evidence of original scholarship.” These are basically kids who are recruited by professors or who have independent academic work that has been reviewed by the faculty. Only a hundred or so kids are given a -1- in academics and it is about the same (100-200) for sports. Academics, by the way, is not just about perfect scores as 8,000 kids had perfect GPA, 3500 had perfect SAT math, and 2700 had perfect SAT verbal

What you can glean from some of this is that:

* Simply playing DA is not going to get you a -1- (i.e. a top billing athletically).

* A -2- is still helpful, but whether the admissions committee differentiates between DA, MLS DA, ECNL or High School team is a debate that would fill this message board but I suspect most admissions personnel wouldn’t care that much about. (i.e. I doubt admissions counselors are uptodate on who is top of the DA, who is not, what ECNL is vs captain of a high school side, etc). I suspect a coach would certainly have an opinion, but from the admissions committee standpoint it seems they are more concerned about things like the time spent playing or leading a team rather than the level of athletic ability within that team.

Now let’s get back to an important point here: this is Harvard. It’s not normal. I imagine a similar rating system does exist for say the top 10 soccer schools in the USA (i.e. national team > regular DA, etc) but for most colleges playing DA will probably carry more weight in the admissions process than it does at the top schools.

My takeaway from this is if you have the capability to get to a -1- in the athletic level (i.e. national team) than a sacrifice of some academics may not hurt you that much (provided it isn't a total blow off of the academics). An athlete with a -1- but with a -4- academics (Adequate preparation. Respectable grades and low-to-mid-600 scores (26 to 29) ACT) is much more likely than a non-athlete with a -4- to get in (as much as 1000 times more likely actually). But we are talking a NATIONAL, INTERNATIONAL, OLYMPICS level of athletic ability, which by and large, isn't your garden variety DA player. Lowering academics just to play on a DA isn't going to open doors to the top schools (either academically or athletically) and playing on a mid-level D1 or a D3 is probably going to be the final years of your kid's soccer career.

A college counselor wrote this after reading this data and it’s pretty appropriate: “If you are truly invested in getting into Harvard (or any other Ivy League), your best bet is probably to find an academic area, extracurricular activity, or sport that you actually have a passion for (not something you are doing just so it "looks good on apps" and try to become elite in that area at a national and/or distinct level -- pull this off and you are more than half-way on the way to acceptance”

Links:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/comments/cfwru7/interesting_statistics_and_info_regarding_harvard/
https://blog.prepscholar.com/harvard-asian-admissions-lawsuit-application-strategy
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/29/how-to-get-in-to-harvard/
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/30/athlete-admissions/

That's interesting but also illustrates how quickly things have changed when it comes to soccer - at least on the men's side. In 2019, most players who are good enough to make the U17 YNT are not thinking about applying for college. They're thinking about going pro.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need better high school. It does not have to be four wasted educational years. You can take college level courses for credit in many high school and the credits are transferable. More importantly the material in interesting and challenging. Part of the value of AP and Honors course is they attract students who are more interested in engaging with the material so the course can move faster and be more intellectual.

It doesn't matter once a kid is in college. Just like the soccer doesn't matter after they quit playing either after HS or after college. AP just is not the pinnacle of life and once in college the impact of AP classes fades away very quickly.

All that matters is getting into the school. AP classes is one way, a mix of AP, Honors and sports is another way. Eventually, in both cases the kids will succeed or fail on their own.

We just have to agree to disagree. IMO more matters then getting into the school. Good luck to your player.

Agreed on all those counts. The "just getting in" mentality goes well beyond soccer and has seriously degraded the work force that I see; we see the same things out of law school graduates Annually, the quality declines just a bit more. And frankly I am surprised that people on these boards would think that a strategy that would almost certainly doom their child in soccer (I am in the DA so I can coast now) would somehow work in academics, where the talent pool is increasingly global and competition is forever. No, simply taking an AP course does not mean you are challenging yourself. And taking ten is not necessary to challenge oneself. But ducking AP or IB courses to play more soccer is certainly not challenging yourself academically at a level that is likely to yield long-term success in the classroom. Not everybody needs to be academically competitive or elite, but if you think your kid will somehow wing it for a few years while you enjoy their DA games, and then catch fire after graduating from college or get what they need from the alumni network, you are doing them a disservice.

[Anonymous]

AP courses are overrated. The big 3 private schools will eliminate all AP classes in 2020 I think.

Where I work, we have quite a few people who attended TJ and went onto Carnegie Mellon, UVa, Georgia Tech. I myself went to UVA. All of us have to report to the VP who studied communications @GMU and played D1 soccer there. The CFO was also a D1 soccer player @GMU and hired my boss. He went from a worker to director then VP in three years. The power of sports and networking is much more powerful than AP courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Head thump.

Why do people think this is just about AP and having the same meaningless argument about AP?

It’s about an overall reduction in academics—a refocusing on sports over academics whether it be a weaker school, fewer Advanced classes, tutors etc.

Forrest : trees.
SMH

Because it's about getting into college. The only advantage to AP's is to get into college. There is no reason to do "more" academics if you don't have to... it's meaningless. Stop acting like your kids do AP because they love the subject and enjoy spending their nights doing homework... they do AP's to impress colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need better high school. It does not have to be four wasted educational years. You can take college level courses for credit in many high school and the credits are transferable. More importantly the material in interesting and challenging. Part of the value of AP and Honors course is they attract students who are more interested in engaging with the material so the course can move faster and be more intellectual.

It doesn't matter once a kid is in college. Just like the soccer doesn't matter after they quit playing either after HS or after college. AP just is not the pinnacle of life and once in college the impact of AP classes fades away very quickly.

All that matters is getting into the school. AP classes is one way, a mix of AP, Honors and sports is another way. Eventually, in both cases the kids will succeed or fail on their own.

Not necessarily. If you get into the school on an athletic scholarship, you have to participate a certain amount in the sport AND maintain your grades to a certain point. What happens when the sport requires more commitment than the student can commit and still maintain those grades? If your grades lapse, you lose the scholarship. If you decrease your participation in the sport to concentrate on your academics, you lose your scholarship. I've seen a number of kids get stuck between the rock and the hard place trying to balance. Then they lose the scholarship...can the parents handle the full load? If you're at a top private school, the tuition may be overwhelming. And the kid may be stuck for a fifth year just to graduate and then the family is on the hook for another expensive year.

Just getting into the school is not all that matters. Making sure that your student can actually handle the load of the commitment, both academic as well as athletic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Head thump.

Why do people think this is just about AP and having the same meaningless argument about AP?

It’s about an overall reduction in academics—a refocusing on sports over academics whether it be a weaker school, fewer Advanced classes, tutors etc.

Forrest : trees.
SMH

Because it's about getting into college. The only advantage to AP's is to get into college. There is no reason to do "more" academics if you don't have to... it's meaningless. Stop acting like your kids do AP because they love the subject and enjoy spending their nights doing homework... they do AP's to impress colleges.

What is meaningless is living your life entirely to somehow game the system to get into some college that you seemingly could care less about educationally. What is the point of that? If there is no subject meaningful or attractive to you kid, oh well but I cant relate at that at all. I would bet the demographic playing fancy schmancy youth soccer is full of geeks and nerds as well. I played college sports and the geeks and nerds I knew and loved are killing it right now,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP courses are overrated. The big 3 private schools will eliminate all AP classes in 2020 I think.

Where I work, we have quite a few people who attended TJ and went onto Carnegie Mellon, UVa, Georgia Tech. I myself went to UVA. All of us have to report to the VP who studied communications @GMU and played D1 soccer there. The CFO was also a D1 soccer player @GMU and hired my boss. He went from a worker to director then VP in three years. The power of sports and networking is much more powerful than AP courses.

Because they are not showing competitive results vs public schools. APs are not meaningless at all. And if they are not hard, why duck them? And I'll circle back to you in 10 years to see how the network all works out/ There are those of us who can do both AP and soccer. Those who can do only AP are more likely to do well than those who can do only athletics. And the academic kids have a network too, though I can tell you none of it matters at places where you can earn real money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Head thump.

Why do people think this is just about AP and having the same meaningless argument about AP?

It’s about an overall reduction in academics—a refocusing on sports over academics whether it be a weaker school, fewer Advanced classes, tutors etc.

Forrest : trees.
SMH

Because it's about getting into college. The only advantage to AP's is to get into college. There is no reason to do "more" academics if you don't have to... it's meaningless. Stop acting like your kids do AP because they love the subject and enjoy spending their nights doing homework... they do AP's to impress colleges.

What is meaningless is living your life entirely to somehow game the system to get into some college that you seemingly could care less about educationally. What is the point of that? If there is no subject meaningful or attractive to you kid, oh well but I cant relate at that at all. I would bet the demographic playing fancy schmancy youth soccer is full of geeks and nerds as well. I played college sports and the geeks and nerds I knew and loved are killing it right now,

Geeks and nerds don't even need a college degree. That's a whole other type of game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP courses are overrated. The big 3 private schools will eliminate all AP classes in 2020 I think.

Where I work, we have quite a few people who attended TJ and went onto Carnegie Mellon, UVa, Georgia Tech. I myself went to UVA. All of us have to report to the VP who studied communications @GMU and played D1 soccer there. The CFO was also a D1 soccer player @GMU and hired my boss. He went from a worker to director then VP in three years. The power of sports and networking is much more powerful than AP courses.

Because they are not showing competitive results vs public schools. APs are not meaningless at all. And if they are not hard, why duck them? And I'll circle back to you in 10 years to see how the network all works out/ There are those of us who can do both AP and soccer. Those who can do only AP are more likely to do well than those who can do only athletics. And the academic kids have a network too, though I can tell you none of it matters at places where you can earn real money.

Why is it that people have to make it an us vs them scenario when it comes to athletes.

You do you.

Frats have networks,
Ivys' have networks
Athletes have networks
and apparently academic kids do too
i'm sure artists do too.

so what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP courses are overrated. The big 3 private schools will eliminate all AP classes in 2020 I think.

Where I work, we have quite a few people who attended TJ and went onto Carnegie Mellon, UVa, Georgia Tech. I myself went to UVA. All of us have to report to the VP who studied communications @GMU and played D1 soccer there. The CFO was also a D1 soccer player @GMU and hired my boss. He went from a worker to director then VP in three years. The power of sports and networking is much more powerful than AP courses.

Because they are not showing competitive results vs public schools. APs are not meaningless at all. And if they are not hard, why duck them? And I'll circle back to you in 10 years to see how the network all works out/ There are those of us who can do both AP and soccer. Those who can do only AP are more likely to do well than those who can do only athletics. And the academic kids have a network too, though I can tell you none of it matters at places where you can earn real money.

There are higher percentage kids from Potomac private school attending Ivies and Stanford than public schools. That's the fact. Anyone can attend public schools. Private school is by invitation only. Because they are not showing competitive results vs public schools is laughable.

D1 athletes, in general, have better opportunities than the general student population and better paying job than students who have better academic credentials. For example, athletes are great at IT sales. After ten years, IT sale people make around 700K/yr while a STEM engineer makes at most 200k/yr. Not even close.