"You know that's impossible right?" Explaining to kids the comments of creationists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
So by this reasoning, surely you must be teaching your children the creation myths (er, sorry... facts) of ancient Sumeria, and the Greeks and Romans, Indians, etc. alongside Christian creationism, and the scientific theory of evolution, and then letting them make up their own minds, right? Because wouldn't you be some kind of hypocrite if you are trying to foist your beliefs on your children by only teaching them about Christian creationism and evolution and letting them make up their own mind based on incomplete information?

Love how it's always about "Christian hypocrisy" and never about the other Abrahamic faiths which share the same creation stories. Says a lot about this poster.

This thread is about Christian creationism. I would be happy to participate in a thread about Muslim (Jewish, Hindu, etc.)hypocrisy, if you would care to start one. As I mentioned, I'm a reform Jew. We learned the creation myths, and we learned not to take them literally. Science and knowledge are very important in my religion. One can believe in both God and science; it's not impossible to reconcile.

It's interesting that the earlier PP asked for someone to answer the above question, but apparently a lot of you couldn't handle my answer and so went straight to the whining.

Wow, you make absolutely no sense. First, you say you are a reform Jew who doesn't take the creation stories literally, yet above you are bashing a Christian who said exactly the same thing, i.e., she also doesn't take the creation stories literally. Second, you've apparently ignored all the posts from Christians saying they manage to reconcile science and religion, instead you make your sanctimonious point about how you can do it yourself. Third, there are people in Judaism who DO take the creation stories literally, yet you bash only Christians who take the creation stories literally. And fourth, you look like a total jackass going after that PP for not teaching her kids Sumerian creation stories, because it's pretty obvious you don't teach your own children Sumerian creation stories.

In other words: WTF is wrong with your thinking processes? For someone who claims to "love" science, you sure aren't comfortable with basic reasoning. And please stop claiming to represent Jews -- you're not doing us any favors!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Another poster from page 1. Creationism aside, God aside, science vs. faith aside (and not totally sure why the two have to be mutually exclusive), whatever you believe, why do you feel the need to foist those beliefs on your children? Why are you afraid of them making up their own minds when they are able to?

Anybody going to at least try and answer this one?

So by this reasoning, surely you must be teaching your children the creation myths (er, sorry... facts) of ancient Sumeria, and the Greeks and Romans, Indians, etc. alongside Christian creationism, and the scientific theory of evolution, and then letting them make up their own minds, right? Because wouldn't you be some kind of hypocrite if you are trying to foist your beliefs on your children by only teaching them about Christian creationism and evolution and letting them make up their own mind based on incomplete information?

Love how it's always about "Christian hypocrisy" and never about the other Abrahamic faiths which share the same creation stories. Says a lot about this poster.

This thread is about Christian creationism. I would be happy to participate in a thread about Muslim (Jewish, Hindu, etc.)hypocrisy, if you would care to start one. As I mentioned, I'm a reform Jew. We learned the creation myths, and we learned not to take them literally. Science and knowledge are very important in my religion. One can believe in both God and science; it's not impossible to reconcile.

It's interesting that the earlier PP asked for someone to answer the above question, but apparently a lot of you couldn't handle my answer and so went straight to the whining.

I answered it:


Sure, I will try to answer. I tell my kids that I do not know if there is a God or not. Some people believe in God, some people do not. I want them to learn about religion and make up their own minds about whether or not they believe in God. Religion is a matter of faith. However, not everything is a matter of faith or opinion. A virus causes influenza. The earth is not 6000 years old. Creationism is not a valid or rational idea. The Sun is a G-type main sequence star, it is not a God that rides across the sky in a four horse chariot. People cannot flap their arms and fly like a bird. These are not things you "make up your mind" about whether or not to "believe" in them. We should educate our children, not simply leave them in ignorance.

I think this is a wonderful response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Last time I checked, the other faiths didn't run around spouting nonsense about creationism the way some Christians do. Now, granted, some extreme Muslims took over entire countries and imposed a horrible way of life on the people there... But, we're fighting a war over that.

Hey Reformed Jew, is this your third post in a row bashing Christianity? I mean, in addition to the earlier post you acknowledged where you bashed Christianity, and presumably lot of of earlier on this thread.

Your behavior is really ugly, I have to say.

*Sigh* Yet again, not me. Please feel free to check with Jeff if it's really bothering you. I'm trying to engage in rational, hate-free dialogue, yet one or more of you keep launching these wild accusations, making dialogue practically impossible.

How can you possibly claim your broad-brush tarring of Christians and Muslims is "hate-free dialogue." You are ridiculous. You can tell yourself that you're a tolerant person, but it's not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
So by this reasoning, surely you must be teaching your children the creation myths (er, sorry... facts) of ancient Sumeria, and the Greeks and Romans, Indians, etc. alongside Christian creationism, and the scientific theory of evolution, and then letting them make up their own minds, right? Because wouldn't you be some kind of hypocrite if you are trying to foist your beliefs on your children by only teaching them about Christian creationism and evolution and letting them make up their own mind based on incomplete information?

Love how it's always about "Christian hypocrisy" and never about the other Abrahamic faiths which share the same creation stories. Says a lot about this poster.

This thread is about Christian creationism. I would be happy to participate in a thread about Muslim (Jewish, Hindu, etc.)hypocrisy, if you would care to start one. As I mentioned, I'm a reform Jew. We learned the creation myths, and we learned not to take them literally. Science and knowledge are very important in my religion. One can believe in both God and science; it's not impossible to reconcile.

It's interesting that the earlier PP asked for someone to answer the above question, but apparently a lot of you couldn't handle my answer and so went straight to the whining.

Wow, you make absolutely no sense. First, you say you are a reform Jew who doesn't take the creation stories literally, yet above you are bashing a Christian who said exactly the same thing, i.e., she also doesn't take the creation stories literally. Second, you've apparently ignored all the posts from Christians saying they manage to reconcile science and religion, instead you make your sanctimonious point about how you can do it yourself. Third, there are people in Judaism who DO take the creation stories literally, yet you bash only Christians who take the creation stories literally. And fourth, you look like a total jackass going after that PP for not teaching her kids Sumerian creation stories, because it's pretty obvious you don't teach your own children Sumerian creation stories.

In other words: WTF is wrong with your thinking processes? For someone who claims to "love" science, you sure aren't comfortable with basic reasoning. And please stop claiming to represent Jews -- you're not doing us any favors!

I actually have a children's book of myths from around the world (and throughout various periods of history) that I love to read to my kid. Sadly, there aren't any Sumerian myths, but I would happily include those if I could. And of course there are Jews who take the creation myth literally, but they're not reform Jews, so what's your point?

I ran in the last election to be Official Spokesperson of all Jews, but that mensch in Boca won, which is why I don't claim to speak for all the Jews. Maybe next year...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Last time I checked, the other faiths didn't run around spouting nonsense about creationism the way some Christians do. Now, granted, some extreme Muslims took over entire countries and imposed a horrible way of life on the people there... But, we're fighting a war over that.

Hey Reformed Jew, is this your third post in a row bashing Christianity? I mean, in addition to the earlier post you acknowledged where you bashed Christianity, and presumably lot of of earlier on this thread.

Your behavior is really ugly, I have to say.

*Sigh* Yet again, not me. Please feel free to check with Jeff if it's really bothering you. I'm trying to engage in rational, hate-free dialogue, yet one or more of you keep launching these wild accusations, making dialogue practically impossible.

How can you possibly claim your broad-brush tarring of Christians and Muslims is "hate-free dialogue." You are ridiculous. You can tell yourself that you're a tolerant person, but it's not true.

Can you give me some examples of my "broad-brush tarring of Christians and Muslims" because I'm pretty sure you have me mixed up with one or more other posters.

[Anonymous]

Sometimes we can find the beliefs of others nonsensical, even as we accept their right to believe it. I'm sure you think the ladies who practice wicca and buy their crystals at the new-agey shop up the street from me are out-of-their-f-ing-minds. But we shrug it off and move on. For some of us, it's the same when the nonsensical beliefs are Christian. It's just as absurd to some of us. That doesn't mean that we hate Christians. For the most part I don't care what they believe as long as they don't try to indoctrinate me or my kid. I'm sure if the Wiccan ladies loudly mouthed off in front of your kid about how God really created the world in HER cauldron or something you would be offended and wonder how to protect your child from having to hear such crazy things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes we can find the beliefs of others nonsensical, even as we accept their right to believe it. I'm sure you think the ladies who practice wicca and buy their crystals at the new-agey shop up the street from me are out-of-their-f-ing-minds. But we shrug it off and move on. For some of us, it's the same when the nonsensical beliefs are Christian. It's just as absurd to some of us. That doesn't mean that we hate Christians. For the most part I don't care what they believe as long as they don't try to indoctrinate me or my kid. I'm sure if the Wiccan ladies loudly mouthed off in front of your kid about how God really created the world in HER cauldron or something you would be offended and wonder how to protect your child from having to hear such crazy things.

But your religion is the only true religion, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes we can find the beliefs of others nonsensical, even as we accept their right to believe it. I'm sure you think the ladies who practice wicca and buy their crystals at the new-agey shop up the street from me are out-of-their-f-ing-minds. But we shrug it off and move on. For some of us, it's the same when the nonsensical beliefs are Christian. It's just as absurd to some of us. That doesn't mean that we hate Christians. For the most part I don't care what they believe as long as they don't try to indoctrinate me or my kid. I'm sure if the Wiccan ladies loudly mouthed off in front of your kid about how God really created the world in HER cauldron or something you would be offended and wonder how to protect your child from having to hear such crazy things.

Ridiculous reform Jew here. I think the issue that has really gotten lost though the hundreds of responses on this thread is that none of us on here (I hope!) believe that a person shouldn't be able to teach their children about their religious beliefs, but when people want those beliefs taught to children of different beliefs or different religions (I do understand that not all Christians believe in creationism), then we have a problem. Creationists, teach your kids whatever you want. Heck, if you want to lobby for a comparative religion class to be taught at your local public school, go for it! BUT when you try to force your religious beliefs to be taught in science class, you had better believe that I have a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Carbon dating, when you go back many years, has never been proven. For lack of a better way to explain it (my grandparents were Harvard/Nasa scientists who explained it to me in layman's terms), there are so few carbons when you go back many many years that the possible margin or error is enormous, i.e., is it 100,000 years old? 1 million years old? 1 billion years old. Who knows - it's essentially only a theory when you go back that far because it has NEVER been verified. We have no dated documents or other dated evidence from millions of years ago with which to verify.

The age of the earth is not estimated by carbon-14 dating. Radiometric dating is used -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth#Radiometric_dating.

Carbon dating will give good results for objects up to 50,000 years. It is a scientific, proven method that has been calibrated and verified, for example with old tree rings.

Same difference. Carbon dating is a form of radiometric dating. Plus, again, neither has been verified as dating anything hundreds of thousands or millions or billions of years old.

If you look at the quoted wikipedia article, you will see "Radiometric dating continues to be the predominant way scientists date geologic timescales. Techniques for radioactive dating have been tested and fine-tuned for the past 50+ years. Forty or so different dating techniques have been utilized to date, working on a wide variety of materials. Dates for the same sample using these different techniques are in very close agreement on the age of the material." and "The radiometric date of meteorites can be verified with studies of the Sun. The Sun can be dated using helioseismic methods that strongly agree with the radiometric dates found for the oldest meteorites.[30]"


If multiple methods (40!) are giving the same result, what reason do you have for doubting it? Do you know of any scientific evidence that gives a much smaller age than about a billion?

You quote Wikipedia. You talk about the sun.

My grandfather was a physicist at NASA - he worked on Apollo. He even built observatories from scratch (including inventing his own method of lens making, missle systems too, etc. . .). Even his work on Apollo is patented. My grandmother was a chemist. I cite scientists, not Wikipedia.

I'm sorry, despite your grandparents' credentials, you have no clue what you are talking about. Scientists do not use CARBON dating to determine the Earth's age, they use isotopes with longer half-lives....like URANIUM. Yes, carbon dating does not work for things that are billions of years old, BUT, uranium does.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/3/l_033_01.html

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/radiometric.html

Maybe your grandparents had gone senile by the time they got around to explaining it to you, or maybe, you're not intelligent enough to understand and that why you had to drop out of your computer science program?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes we can find the beliefs of others nonsensical, even as we accept their right to believe it. I'm sure you think the ladies who practice wicca and buy their crystals at the new-agey shop up the street from me are out-of-their-f-ing-minds. But we shrug it off and move on. For some of us, it's the same when the nonsensical beliefs are Christian. It's just as absurd to some of us. That doesn't mean that we hate Christians. For the most part I don't care what they believe as long as they don't try to indoctrinate me or my kid. I'm sure if the Wiccan ladies loudly mouthed off in front of your kid about how God really created the world in HER cauldron or something you would be offended and wonder how to protect your child from having to hear such crazy things.

Ridiculous reform Jew here. I think the issue that has really gotten lost though the hundreds of responses on this thread is that none of us on here (I hope!) believe that a person shouldn't be able to teach their children about their religious beliefs, but when people want those beliefs taught to children of different beliefs or different religions (I do understand that not all Christians believe in creationism), then we have a problem. Creationists, teach your kids whatever you want. Heck, if you want to lobby for a comparative religion class to be taught at your local public school, go for it! BUT when you try to force your religious beliefs to be taught in science class, you had better believe that I have a problem.

Well, thanks for the straw man (teaching creationism in science class - not what this thread has ever been about). I'll take it, because it's nice to see you sounding tolerant instead of your earlier post bashing the Muslims' "horrible way of life" (your words) while elevating your own Reform Judaism above all others....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm sorry, despite your grandparents' credentials, you have no clue what you are talking about. Scientists do not use CARBON dating to determine the Earth's age, they use isotopes with longer half-lives....like URANIUM. Yes, carbon dating does not work for things that are billions of years old, BUT, uranium does.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/3/l_033_01.html

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/radiometric.html

Maybe your grandparents had gone senile by the time they got around to explaining it to you, or maybe, you're not intelligent enough to understand and that why you had to drop out of your computer science program?

I'm not that PP, but going after someone's grandparents is the pits. It begs the question, How low can you go? You're a real charmer.

[Anonymous]

My daughter and I overheard a similar conversation while watching the short film about the evolution of mammals at the natural history museum. She interrupted the film several times to loudly proclaim how she didn't believe any of it.

I had the discussion with my child afterwards because I didn't want to be rude and interrupt the film for everyone else. My daughter kept looking to me when Rude Smithsonian Visitor would start talking. I'm sure she could see that I was annoyed with that person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes we can find the beliefs of others nonsensical, even as we accept their right to believe it. I'm sure you think the ladies who practice wicca and buy their crystals at the new-agey shop up the street from me are out-of-their-f-ing-minds. But we shrug it off and move on. For some of us, it's the same when the nonsensical beliefs are Christian. It's just as absurd to some of us. That doesn't mean that we hate Christians. For the most part I don't care what they believe as long as they don't try to indoctrinate me or my kid. I'm sure if the Wiccan ladies loudly mouthed off in front of your kid about how God really created the world in HER cauldron or something you would be offended and wonder how to protect your child from having to hear such crazy things.

Ridiculous reform Jew here. I think the issue that has really gotten lost though the hundreds of responses on this thread is that none of us on here (I hope!) believe that a person shouldn't be able to teach their children about their religious beliefs, but when people want those beliefs taught to children of different beliefs or different religions (I do understand that not all Christians believe in creationism), then we have a problem. Creationists, teach your kids whatever you want. Heck, if you want to lobby for a comparative religion class to be taught at your local public school, go for it! BUT when you try to force your religious beliefs to be taught in science class, you had better believe that I have a problem.

Well, thanks for the straw man (teaching creationism in science class - not what this thread has ever been about). I'll take it, because it's nice to see you sounding tolerant instead of your earlier post bashing the Muslims' "horrible way of life" (your words) while elevating your own Reform Judaism above all others....

I've been pretty good at not bashing anyone personally, but what's it gonna take to get it through your thick skull that I'm not the "horrible way of life poster" to which you keep referring?!? You are aware that there are more than two people on DCUM, right? But way to make assumptions...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My daughter and I overheard a similar conversation while watching the short film about the evolution of mammals at the natural history museum. She interrupted the film several times to loudly proclaim how she didn't believe any of it.

I had the discussion with my child afterwards because I didn't want to be rude and interrupt the film for everyone else. My daughter kept looking to me when Rude Smithsonian Visitor would start talking. I'm sure she could see that I was annoyed with that person.

Sounds like you handled it like a mature adult. Your kid learned two things from you: your beliefs, and how to handle disagreements.

Here's my favorite post from this thread, tongue in cheek of course: "She started it, so you should defanitely one-up her and make an obnoxious and loud comeback. Yeah, that'll teach everyone a lesson and you'll feel great as a person and mom. Tell her DCUM sent you."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I've been pretty good at not bashing anyone personally, but what's it gonna take to get it through your thick skull that I'm not the "horrible way of life poster" to which you keep referring?!? You are aware that there are more than two people on DCUM, right? But way to make assumptions...

Yeah, we totally believe that you're a mature person who would never engage in ad hominem attacks.... You are, however, the poster who uses ellipses incorrectly.