DCUM Class warfare

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is class warfare against the rich and ultimately it is going to stifle productivity. If you are constantly vilified for your success and there is a constant cry for your wealth to be redistributed, what is the incentive to succeed--so that someone who chose differently can reap the fruits of your labor?

CEOs and hedge fund/wall street types who make millions a year are frequently paid through stock and so only pay 15% in taxes, much lower than someone who currently makes a whole lot less. Many of those same folks are the ones who caused the recent finacial woes through back room deals and insider trading. Until we clean up our finanacial industry and stop allowing their own to regulate them [they come from Wall Street and go back to Wall Street after their appointment ends] the rest of us will lose out. I do not begrudge anyone their money, as long as it is made legally and legitimately.

It is legal. You want to make it illegal. It is jealousy. You are poor and they are rich and you and Obama can't have that. How dare they.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is class warfare against the rich and ultimately it is going to stifle productivity. If you are constantly vilified for your success and there is a constant cry for your wealth to be redistributed, what is the incentive to succeed--so that someone who chose differently can reap the fruits of your labor?

CEOs and hedge fund/wall street types who make millions a year are frequently paid through stock and so only pay 15% in taxes, much lower than someone who currently makes a whole lot less. Many of those same folks are the ones who caused the recent finacial woes through back room deals and insider trading. Until we clean up our finanacial industry and stop allowing their own to regulate them [they come from Wall Street and go back to Wall Street after their appointment ends] the rest of us will lose out. I do not begrudge anyone their money, as long as it is made legally and legitimately.

It is legal. You want to make it illegal. It is jealousy. You are poor and they are rich and you and Obama can't have that. How dare they.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical. (See also: Casey Anthony's defense team.)

[Anonymous]

"You're just jealous" is a remarkably childish argument. All you have to do is look back at the years of American prosperity, when income was more equitably distributed, to realize that making rich people richer isn't the source of well-being for our society, it's making it possible for everyone to contribute to and to benefit from our economy.

Or you could consider the example of the politically right-wing Henry Ford, who paid his workers well enough so that they could afford to buy his cars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is class warfare against the rich and ultimately it is going to stifle productivity. If you are constantly vilified for your success and there is a constant cry for your wealth to be redistributed, what is the incentive to succeed--so that someone who chose differently can reap the fruits of your labor?

CEOs and hedge fund/wall street types who make millions a year are frequently paid through stock and so only pay 15% in taxes, much lower than someone who currently makes a whole lot less. Many of those same folks are the ones who caused the recent finacial woes through back room deals and insider trading. Until we clean up our finanacial industry and stop allowing their own to regulate them [they come from Wall Street and go back to Wall Street after their appointment ends] the rest of us will lose out. I do not begrudge anyone their money, as long as it is made legally and legitimately.

It is legal. You want to make it illegal. It is jealousy. You are poor and they are rich and you and Obama can't have that. How dare they.

Lots of things are or have been legal. Slavery was legal. Abortion is legal. Do you really think we have a perfect system that should never be changed even if something is really unfair or even immoral? Come on! Are you just pulling our leg or do you really believe that what you said above is a sensible argument?

And what about you? I bet you are not in the 15% bracket. Why do you think only you should pay your fair share, and the ultra-rich should not? Do you think the ultra-rich are better than you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


So let's steal some from him to fund largess. Who cares how hard he worked for it.

He did work hard. So do janitors. Why should he pay a lower tax rate than janitors? I don't think he should have to pay all his hard earned money, but come on! He has far more than he can spend! Why shouldn't he pay the same tax rate as a janitor? I wouldn't call requiring corporate CEOs and Janitors to pay the same tax rate largess, would you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is class warfare against the rich and ultimately it is going to stifle productivity. If you are constantly vilified for your success and there is a constant cry for your wealth to be redistributed, what is the incentive to succeed--so that someone who chose differently can reap the fruits of your labor?

CEOs and hedge fund/wall street types who make millions a year are frequently paid through stock and so only pay 15% in taxes, much lower than someone who currently makes a whole lot less. Many of those same folks are the ones who caused the recent finacial woes through back room deals and insider trading. Until we clean up our finanacial industry and stop allowing their own to regulate them [they come from Wall Street and go back to Wall Street after their appointment ends] the rest of us will lose out. I do not begrudge anyone their money, as long as it is made legally and legitimately.

It is legal. You want to make it illegal. It is jealousy. You are poor and they are rich and you and Obama can't have that. How dare they.

Let's clear a few things up.

1. Restricted Stock awards and stock options income for CEO's are taxed as regular income, not 15%.
2. Hedge fund managers are the specific group that through a loophole make money taxed at 15%. That's really unfair, because they are being paid for their labor not for their capital investment. But it won't change because the hedge fund managers will throw massive $ at the campaigns to make sure congress doesn't change it.
3. Wall Street did have a large role to play in the financial crisis. Many traders did clearly unethical things, like betting against the very securities they sold to the market.
4. As for the problems of self-regulation, even Alan "Rand" Greenspan has concluded that self-regulation failed.

So to the earlier poster, you are wrong on one count - the CEO.

And to the PP, I firmly believe in 2,3,4 even though I have made millions of dollars and my wife makes 7 figures, so it is not jealousy. It is perfectly reasonable that the dividends tax rate be used only for invested capital. Only a fool would think that Wall Street did not need to be cleaned up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH and I work very hard, are well educated with graduate degrees and have been blown to smithereens by this recession. DH was un/underemployed for two years. I work for a non-profit, and so no, I'm not making big law dollars. But I work damn hard and put in long hours. So is our current hardship situation our fault? I don't think so. Were we irresponsible with our money. NO. So I really don't want to hear from the meritocracy that hasn't yet been hit by the recession about how they deserve to be millionaires because they just work so darn hard.

Let's face it, the middle class is getting screwed left, right, and center.

Sorry for your predicament. But lets face it, you had a choice. When you were at your good school you chose to go the nonprofit route and you must have KNOWN that that was the path to riches. It comes with the territory. Don't blame someone who chose a safe profession and went for the money.

It was never my intention to be on a "path to riches". But does that preclude me from a middle class existence? Isn't that the point of this thread? Not everyone can or wants to be a CEO, or a big law partner, but we should all be able to enjoy a decent standard of living that includes health care, shelter, good food, and good schools. Especially if you work hard in school, and work hard in your chosen profession. I reject the premise that I either choose a big earning profession, or I'm screwed.

I'm sorry you reject that premise. That's exactly right. That's why I didn't slack off in school, go PT when I had kids, etc. Do you really think I should pay for you rejecting this premise? Grow up.

PP, there's a tone in your comments that suggests you think money is the best gauge of success and that anyone who made choices that resulted in lower income than you have made "wrong" choices and must now suffer the consequences. That attitude negates the value of so many professions, jobs and roles in this country that do not have high price tags attached to them, but contribute greatly to our society.

I'm curious what you do for a living. Where did you and your spouse end up after making all these sacrifices and choices?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is class warfare against the rich and ultimately it is going to stifle productivity. If you are constantly vilified for your success and there is a constant cry for your wealth to be redistributed, what is the incentive to succeed--so that someone who chose differently can reap the fruits of your labor?

CEOs and hedge fund/wall street types who make millions a year are frequently paid through stock and so only pay 15% in taxes, much lower than someone who currently makes a whole lot less. Many of those same folks are the ones who caused the recent finacial woes through back room deals and insider trading. Until we clean up our finanacial industry and stop allowing their own to regulate them [they come from Wall Street and go back to Wall Street after their appointment ends] the rest of us will lose out. I do not begrudge anyone their money, as long as it is made legally and legitimately.

It is legal. You want to make it illegal. It is jealousy. You are poor and they are rich and you and Obama can't have that. How dare they.

Lots of things are or have been legal. Slavery was legal. Abortion is legal. Do you really think we have a perfect system that should never be changed even if something is really unfair or even immoral? Come on! Are you just pulling our leg or do you really believe that what you said above is a sensible argument?

And what about you? I bet you are not in the 15% bracket. Why do you think only you should pay your fair share, and the ultra-rich should not? Do you think the ultra-rich are better than you?

Wow, the new America where working hard is akin to slavery or abortion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


So let's steal some from him to fund largess. Who cares how hard he worked for it.

He did work hard. So do janitors. Why should he pay a lower tax rate than janitors? I don't think he should have to pay all his hard earned money, but come on! He has far more than he can spend! Why shouldn't he pay the same tax rate as a janitor? I wouldn't call requiring corporate CEOs and Janitors to pay the same tax rate largess, would you?

Janitors pay NO taxes. Let's be really honest. 50% of all Americans pay no tax I doubt janitors are making $150k. Please reach higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


So let's steal some from him to fund largess. Who cares how hard he worked for it.

He did work hard. So do janitors. Why should he pay a lower tax rate than janitors? I don't think he should have to pay all his hard earned money, but come on! He has far more than he can spend! Why shouldn't he pay the same tax rate as a janitor? I wouldn't call requiring corporate CEOs and Janitors to pay the same tax rate largess, would you?

Janitors pay NO taxes. Let's be really honest. 50% of all Americans pay no tax I doubt janitors are making $150k. Please reach higher.

okay. his secretary. (and you mean no income taxes. Janitors pay plenty of taxes. Every time they buy generic flour to bake bread)

[TheManWithAUsername]

So...as I was saying, look back through this thread and see which side tried to make it a war.

A: "Stop attacking me! Stop attacking me!"

B: "What the fuck are you talking about?!"

A: "Stop cursing at me! Stop cursing at me!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Wow, the new America where working hard is akin to slavery or abortion.

okay, maybe I went to an extreme to make a point. But the poster I responded to seemed to imply that, just because something is legal now, means that it is class warfare to ask for it to be changed. I wanted to find an extreme example that would make it obvious that it can be sensible to ask for change. But, I guess I just go laughed at

[Anonymous]

TheManWithAUsername wrote:So...as I was saying, look back through this thread and see which side tried to make it a war.

A: "Stop attacking me! Stop attacking me!"

B: "What the fuck are you talking about?!"

A: "Stop cursing at me! Stop cursing at me!"

I don't get this.

[Anonymous]

"What is the current fraction of your income that you give to charity? Anyway... I bet you are not rich enough to be in the class for which it would be useful to raise taxes. Very few people are in that bracket, and they don't waste their time on DCUM. Anyway, if your current tax rate is not near 15%, you are not nearly rich enough to be the one of the ones that are not pulling their weight (and you probably never will be) "

We tithe...10% of gross income, which in our case is $43,000. How much do you give to charity?

[Anonymous]

"I know lots of people in the $1M+ annual income category, including myself, and not a one would say that. It makes me doubt your income and net worth. "

We make $435,000 gross a year, all but $10,000 of it from earned income. Our net worth is approximately $2.6 million. We make a lot compared to the average family, but not nearly enough to be unconcerned about rising tax brackets. I wouldn't care if our HHI was over a million a year, though, you are correct.