Are We Crazy for Questioning a $250k US Degree and looking abroad?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally I really value my college memories. You do not get the US college experience overseas. It’s something I want my kids to be able to experience.

+100
The best of all worlds is college in the U.S. and study abroad for a semester or year.

I mean, it really isn’t. My daughter at Trinity is having a much better time than her friends who stayed in the US. Live music everywhere, big walkable international city with easy access to European cities, booming job market, great clubs and societies, you can go to pubs without worrying about fake ids, and above all a great education. It’s not for everyone, but the chauvinism of assuming that the US college experience is the best could not be more wrong-headed.

My daughter just finished a fantastic semester abroad. She absolutely loved it but was also thrilled to come back to her U.S. university. I was glad she was able to have all of those experiences, both here and overseas. She said she considered it the "best of all worlds".

Correct. “She ” considered the best of both worlds. The best of it to her or you is different than me. Is it ok for people to have their own opinions here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Thank you. OP here. Yes my son was also looking at Trinity College. How big is their 1st year entry class? Are there a lot of Americans there?
If you have an EU passport does that change anything as it relates to fees?

NP with kid at TCD who had similar views to those in PP 16:06. According to the latest TCD info (2022-23), they've got about 15,000 undergrads, so I'd guess roughly 3500+ first years. My kid reports classes tend to be quite large, with professors and TAs expecting students to do the bulk of their study/research on their own. (An aside: There is very little handholding/spoon feeding - and you/your kid should be aware of the different grading system as well. This pamphlet covers grades, as well as the expectations. It's not enough to study what the professor covers - in many courses, kids need to demonstrate wide-ranging critical analysis to get a 70+. https://www.tcd.ie/study/assets/PDF/StudyingAtTrinity_Dec18_Web.pdf)

I don't think they publish the breakdown of student nationality beyond EU/non-EU, but will say my kid has many American and/or dual-national friends, several of whom are also EU passport holders.

You can see the fees breakdown here, as it varies my major: https://www.tcd.ie/courses/undergraduate/fees/, but yes, fees for EU passport holders are much cheaper than for other international students.

Hope this is helpful. My kid is so happy with their decision.

DP: Are you sure that fees are based on nationality and not residence? I think it's the later. It's not enough to hold an EU passport (or even as Irish passport), you need to be an active resident in an EU territory for three (or five?) years prior to entry . . . .

Tuition — UK/Ireland:

Universities in the UK and Ireland tend to charge non-resident prices equivalent to OOS costs for UVa., with tuition category based on location of residence, not passport. So, UK-US dual nationals who grew up in Bethesda pay a lot. Dual nationals who grew up in Dublin pay $2,500 per year.

Tuition — The Continent/English bachelor’s:

English-language programs “on the Continent” (example: the Netherlands) tend to charge what they think are exorbitant non-EU student prices but might only be $15,000 per year, or something like in-state UMd. tuition.

The Netherlands, at least, bases the tuition category on the student’s passport, not the student’s location. So, Dutch universities are a great deal for Dutch dual nationals.

Tuition — The Continent/Non-English bachelor’s

Bachelor’s programs in the EU that aren’t in English or aren’t flooded with international students may charge international students about $2,500 tuition per year.

Tuition — Housing:

Even in the places with expensive dorms or student apartments, the costs might be comparable to what you’d pay at UVa. or UMd. So, $18,000 per year all in for housing and food — if you can find the housing.

The problem isn’t the cost as much as the difficulty of finding any room in a place with a dysfunctional housing market. And, obviously, if Covid flares up, WWIII starts, etc.

Aid:

One huge problem is that many countries in the EU and elsewhere have cheap university tuition for their nationals and no tradition of providing financial aid.

Because of that, a lot of non-U.S. schools that are perfect for families that can pay $30,000 per year are terrible for families with budgets under $25,000 per year.

Some of the non-U.S. schools are set up in such a way that they can use U.S. student loans and 529 plan cash.

But many non-U.S. schools can’t connect with U.S. aid programs at all, and they may make it difficult or impossible for international students (or, in the case of EU schools, non-EU students) to work for pay.

Broke students:

Say there are good, organized, high-stats students who have some savings or family financial support, are up for an adventure and will do anything to get a bachelor’s degree without going to community college.

I think it’s possible to get a bachelor’s degree from an English-language program in a country like Slovenia or Greece for less than $10,000 per year, all in, not including travel. This might not be a very good degree. No one in the United States will have heard of the schools. But that might be an option for students who want to break away from
the pack.

My kid went to Bocconi. Fraction of the price of any American or UK unit. 16 to 17k Euros. His dorms were amazing, better than his sister at brown. Milan was amazing for 3 years. Super international class. He had an amazing experience. He is now at LSE pursuing his masters.

[Anonymous]

I think going abroad for a good education is very reasonable today. The costs of college in the US are absurd.

The problem is that people in human resources in the US tend to be absolute morons. And very parochial. Without connections, that's the barrier young people need to get through.

Makayla in human resources has no idea what ETH Zurich or Imperial College are. So those resumes go in the trash.

The Makaylas in America make things difficult for new graduates. Combined with AI sorting, and it's going to be tough for grads coming out of overseas colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think going abroad for a good education is very reasonable today. The costs of college in the US are absurd.

The problem is that people in human resources in the US tend to be absolute morons. And very parochial. Without connections, that's the barrier young people need to get through.

Makayla in human resources has no idea what ETH Zurich or Imperial College are. So those resumes go in the trash.

The Makaylas in America make things difficult for new graduates. Combined with AI sorting, and it's going to be tough for grads coming out of overseas colleges.

I’m the PP who is hiring manager at a Fortune 20. Look, if you have a degree from ETH Zurich or Imperial and are putting your future on The parochial Makaylas of America, you are doing this wrong. I’m sorry. Someone with a degree from ETH or Imperial know exactly what companies they want to look for and let me tell you, these companies, even their “Makaylas”, like me, know all about ETH or Imperial.

If kids are going abroad to high regarded unis in the UK or EU and are expecting to come back to America to work for a no name brand company, they are doing this all wrong. Might as well stay in the US.

Again, we do not hire outside of top 30-40 in the US depending on the region. But we do hire from top 15 in the UK and from several of the top EU unis all the time. But we do not hire from any other US school…..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally I really value my college memories. You do not get the US college experience overseas. It’s something I want my kids to be able to experience.

+100
The best of all worlds is college in the U.S. and study abroad for a semester or year.

I mean, it really isn’t. My daughter at Trinity is having a much better time than her friends who stayed in the US. Live music everywhere, big walkable international city with easy access to European cities, booming job market, great clubs and societies, you can go to pubs without worrying about fake ids, and above all a great education. It’s not for everyone, but the chauvinism of assuming that the US college experience is the best could not be more wrong-headed.

lol you’re such a striver and competitor. You don’t have to justify your decision by saying your daughter’s friends in the USA aren’t having any fun. Pathetic.

[Anonymous]

for most kids, going to a top regional college makes the most sense. that's where the alumni base is. but nobody jumps all over posters when their Chicago kid (who plans on living as an adult in Chicago) chooses BC over Marquette. even though - and data proves this out - the hiring regionally in Chicago favors the Marquette grad.

also, another best of both worlds situation is school in UK and a "semester abroad" back in the US, which I've seen kids do

[Anonymous]

We’ve been over this so many times. It’s clear what’s happening. Your kids can’t get into the Ivies or other top privates and you’re too embarrassed to say they’re going elsewhere in the USA, so you send them abroad and having made that decision you now insist that their educations are better, they’re having more fun, their job prospects are better etc.

What’s really going on is that instead of going to college with the unwashed American masses they’re doing it with the unwashed European ones for less money.

The top students in the world aren’t clamoring to study in Europe—they’re clamoring to study here.

Your kids are going to school with millions of other kids. They’re not going to Harvard.

What you’ve chosen to do is fine. Great. You do you. But it doesn’t make you special, it doesn’t make your kids special, and it certainly provides no license to tear down kids who aren’t doing the same thing. I guarantee you most kids at most everywhere are “having fun.“

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We’ve been over this so many times. It’s clear what’s happening. Your kids can’t get into the Ivies or other top privates and you’re too embarrassed to say they’re going elsewhere in the USA, so you send them abroad and having made that decision you now insist that their educations are better, they’re having more fun, their job prospects are better etc.

What’s really going on is that instead of going to college with the unwashed American masses they’re doing it with the unwashed European ones for less money.

The top students in the world aren’t clamoring to study in Europe—they’re clamoring to study here.

Your kids are going to school with millions of other kids. They’re not going to Harvard.

What you’ve chosen to do is fine. Great. You do you. But it doesn’t make you special, it doesn’t make your kids special, and it certainly provides no license to tear down kids who aren’t doing the same thing. I guarantee you most kids at most everywhere are “having fun.“

I have a kid at Yale, and I don't think this about kids who see the appeal of the UK. I certainly wish I had their tuition bill. I am an envious school shootings isn't a thing they worry about. I did a grad degree at Oxford myself so I totally get the appeal of spending times in those buildings, pubs, streets. St Andrews is much the same.

If you enjoy spinning entire stories about other people's kids - or, even better, the children of your friends - that's a you thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:for most kids, going to a top regional college makes the most sense. that's where the alumni base is. but nobody jumps all over posters when their Chicago kid (who plans on living as an adult in Chicago) chooses BC over Marquette. even though - and data proves this out - the hiring regionally in Chicago favors the Marquette grad.

also, another best of both worlds situation is school in UK and a "semester abroad" back in the US, which I've seen kids do

Well I would jump all over that parent if they were obsessing over the prestige of BC over Marquette. I think it’s ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

The vast majority of students clamoring for the US education are looking to get access to the US job market. It’s a purely financial decision for the most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:for most kids, going to a top regional college makes the most sense. that's where the alumni base is. but nobody jumps all over posters when their Chicago kid (who plans on living as an adult in Chicago) chooses BC over Marquette. even though - and data proves this out - the hiring regionally in Chicago favors the Marquette grad.

also, another best of both worlds situation is school in UK and a "semester abroad" back in the US, which I've seen kids do

Well I would jump all over that parent if they were obsessing over the prestige of BC over Marquette. I think it’s ridiculous.

maybe the point is stop jumping all over other parents for letting their kids make their own decisions about their own lives.

(nobody said obsessing but you. nobody said it about Marquette vs BC. nobody said it about UK schools. stop obsessing!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The vast majority of students clamoring for the US education are looking to get access to the US job market. It’s a purely financial decision for the most.

That doesn’t seem to make much sense based on what the recruiter person says (how they recruit from like the top 15 European colleges).

Is the idea that if you are physically here then an employer is more likely to sponsor you? I would think most end up returning to their home country as most Americans studying abroad end up doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We’ve been over this so many times. It’s clear what’s happening. Your kids can’t get into the Ivies or other top privates and you’re too embarrassed to say they’re going elsewhere in the USA, so you send them abroad and having made that decision you now insist that their educations are better, they’re having more fun, their job prospects are better etc.

What’s really going on is that instead of going to college with the unwashed American masses they’re doing it with the unwashed European ones for less money.

The top students in the world aren’t clamoring to study in Europe—they’re clamoring to study here.

Your kids are going to school with millions of other kids. They’re not going to Harvard.

What you’ve chosen to do is fine. Great. You do you. But it doesn’t make you special, it doesn’t make your kids special, and it certainly provides no license to tear down kids who aren’t doing the same thing. I guarantee you most kids at most everywhere are “having fun.“

This all this. OP needs to read this one. And hold up a mirror.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:for most kids, going to a top regional college makes the most sense. that's where the alumni base is. but nobody jumps all over posters when their Chicago kid (who plans on living as an adult in Chicago) chooses BC over Marquette. even though - and data proves this out - the hiring regionally in Chicago favors the Marquette grad.

also, another best of both worlds situation is school in UK and a "semester abroad" back in the US, which I've seen kids do

Well I would jump all over that parent if they were obsessing over the prestige of BC over Marquette. I think it’s ridiculous.

Why would you jump all over parents for ANY college decision. Absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a degree from a solid British university that you’ve never heard of. I’ve had no problems getting jobs in the US. And as a hiring manager I care much more about experience and presentation of a candidate than what college an applicant attended. The don’t even remember the colleges any of the people I’ve hired attended.

Agree. As a hiring manager, I did not care about the school a candidate attended. If I had wanted to know more, I could have searched the internet. However, I never did that.