Missing middle- Arlington

[Anonymous]

There’s only 4 new permits listed today. All R-5 and R-6. I didn’t see any nonconforming (undersized) lots. Very curious to see how this unfolds.

Can the county issue the permits with the lawsuit? I thought “yes.”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So begins the decline of Arlington. More people will choose McLean or Bethesda once they see how neighborhoods get transformed by this stupidity.

I don’t think this will happen. I think people will continue to want Arlington for their commutes, or being near amenities, etc. Many of us may go private (like our family). But Arlington is still going to be desirable.

For many people, the dream of owning a SFH is about being on a quiet, peaceful street relatively free of density, not one clogged with cars and people. If people want density, they choose a townhouse or condo. Make no mistake, many people's property values will be negatively impacted.

It's like when you're considering buying a house, but the one next door has all the hallmarks of being inhabited by a hoarder (stuff all over the lawn and backyard, poorly cared for) -- you take a pass and wait for something better to come along. No different here.

Yesterday I literally had someone tell me they chose a SFH in Arlington bc it reminded them of a “city.” The home buying demographic is changing. People are valuing different things.

Perhaps they were looking more over in Lyon Village, which does feel like the city as opposed to homes in the Williamsburg, country club Hills, etc. neighborhoods.

DP. I don’t see the incentives for MM housing in those neighborhoods and if you look at the map most of the MM projects are near amenities. I live in a SFH in 22207 because when we outgrew our condo in LV we couldn’t afford a SFH in that neighborhood. I would never rent here or buy a duplex or multi family housing (unless I could purchase the whole building). It’s not walkable. The rents in the R-B corridor are higher than in other parts of the county. So if I were a developer looking to build a rental that’s where it would make sense to focus.

I agree with this. And to put an even finer point on it, the developers will look for land alone the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor that’s the cheapest. Which means not Lyon Village. That neighborhood is the most expensive per square foot in all of Arlington County. If the developers want to build plexes to rent out, they will target places like Virginia Square and Lyon Park where the land prices are lower. Maybe duplexes make sense in LV, but I think the building lots are too expensive for a 4-6 plex of rental units. There are other metro-accessible neighborhoods with cheaper lots.

Two of the MM projects are in Lyon Village. One on Danvilel St.and one on Jackson St.

No there’s one duplex on N Jackson. Unless Danville just got filed. What’s the Danville address?

Not Danville, Daniel.

https://www.arlingtonva.us/Government/Programs/Building/Permits/EHO/Tracker

There is one on Daniel but the one we just filed is on Danville.

The proposed 6 plex on N Daniel is for a 6000 SF lot but the county’s webpage says the following:

Lots not meeting these minimum dimensional standards can be developed with EHO project if the lot is nonconforming, per ACZO §16.1.1 Nonconforming Lots. EHO development on nonconforming lots is limited to no more than four (4) dwelling units unless the lot is 7,000 sq. ft. or more.


What am I missing? Doesn’t the lot have to be 7000 SF for a 6 plex? Any builders or realtors have the answer to this question?

I think I’m about to answer my own question: is it a conforming lot bc it’s zoned R-5 and has 6000 SF?

But if it were zoned R-6 and had 5500 SF, would it be non-conforming and limited to a 4 plex?

TIA!

For the sake of completeness there is a special rule for R-5 lots that requires a minimum of 6000 sq ft for 5-6 plexes. So as a practical matter 6k square ft is the minimum for 5+ units.

Thank you so much. Since we have some experts, I was curious about something else. It may be too soon to know this, but do you think the plexes will be like the boxy modern houses with flat top roofs, or the quaint examples we saw from the county materials? I don’t see that it matters since people can build SFHs in whatever style they want, but I was curious if the boxier styles get more square footage, and thus would be incentivized. Also are they cheaper to build? Are these custom plexes for each lot or existing plans that builders can buy based on lot size? Do investors care what they look like in case they want to sell the units at any point or does it matter to them?

If it matters, I’m not trying to get building advice, I’m nervous the developers are going to throw up junky buildings. I’m not so nervous about more neighbors.

They build big, boxy SFHs now so I’d expect more of the same for MF housing.

NP and not a builder or a realtor, just a resident. But the boxy look is everywhere.

For builders trying to optimize profits, sure.

But not every builder or homeowner does boxy.

A family I knew in passing from when our kids were little moved out and one of the usual suspects among builders tore down the house and put up the usual hugebland mess. And then the neighbors returned! This was their dream house now that the next was empty.

[Anonymous]

So a house on 5041 25th Street S sold for $560k (4 beds 1 bath) to a developer who is going to tear it down and build 2 houses that probably cost a million each. Perfect example of pricing people out of Arlington - it’s going to be all renters and rich people. The proponents of MMH were so dishonest (or just really uninformed) - this was never going to help bring affordable housing or more housing for minorities - just more density.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So a house on 5041 25th Street S sold for $560k (4 beds 1 bath) to a developer who is going to tear it down and build 2 houses that probably cost a million each. Perfect example of pricing people out of Arlington - it’s going to be all renters and rich people. The proponents of MMH were so dishonest (or just really uninformed) - this was never going to help bring affordable housing or more housing for minorities - just more density.

The alternative was a builder buys it and builds a single 2.0 million house. Last time I checked 1.0 million is less than 2.0 million. It's adding more options in the middle.

No one ever said it was for affordable housing - you misunderstood them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a house on 5041 25th Street S sold for $560k (4 beds 1 bath) to a developer who is going to tear it down and build 2 houses that probably cost a million each. Perfect example of pricing people out of Arlington - it’s going to be all renters and rich people. The proponents of MMH were so dishonest (or just really uninformed) - this was never going to help bring affordable housing or more housing for minorities - just more density.

The alternative was a builder buys it and builds a single 2.0 million house. Last time I checked 1.0 million is less than 2.0 million. It's adding more options in the middle.

No one ever said it was for affordable housing - you misunderstood them.

Well, the MM proponents were happy to have it misunderstood as "affordable housing" but plenty of people said it wouldn't be.

Looking at street view for that house/street, it actually seems like the kind of area where townhomes or a 4/6-plex would make sense. Very old, run down houses just off Route 7, behind a Taco Bell. Not a great location for a $2M house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So a house on 5041 25th Street S sold for $560k (4 beds 1 bath) to a developer who is going to tear it down and build 2 houses that probably cost a million each. Perfect example of pricing people out of Arlington - it’s going to be all renters and rich people. The proponents of MMH were so dishonest (or just really uninformed) - this was never going to help bring affordable housing or more housing for minorities - just more density.

Missing middle refers to housing size. These were never going to be committed affordable units. MMH opponents misled you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So a house on 5041 25th Street S sold for $560k (4 beds 1 bath) to a developer who is going to tear it down and build 2 houses that probably cost a million each. Perfect example of pricing people out of Arlington - it’s going to be all renters and rich people. The proponents of MMH were so dishonest (or just really uninformed) - this was never going to help bring affordable housing or more housing for minorities - just more density.

The alternative was a builder buys it and builds a single 2.0 million house. Last time I checked 1.0 million is less than 2.0 million. It's adding more options in the middle.

No one ever said it was for affordable housing - you misunderstood them.

Well, the MM proponents were happy to have it misunderstood as "affordable housing" but plenty of people said it wouldn't be.

Looking at street view for that house/street, it actually seems like the kind of area where townhomes or a 4/6-plex would make sense. Very old, run down houses just off Route 7, behind a Taco Bell. Not a great location for a $2M house.

Literally no one said it was going to be affordable housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a house on 5041 25th Street S sold for $560k (4 beds 1 bath) to a developer who is going to tear it down and build 2 houses that probably cost a million each. Perfect example of pricing people out of Arlington - it’s going to be all renters and rich people. The proponents of MMH were so dishonest (or just really uninformed) - this was never going to help bring affordable housing or more housing for minorities - just more density.

The alternative was a builder buys it and builds a single 2.0 million house. Last time I checked 1.0 million is less than 2.0 million. It's adding more options in the middle.

No one ever said it was for affordable housing - you misunderstood them.

Well, the MM proponents were happy to have it misunderstood as "affordable housing" but plenty of people said it wouldn't be.

Looking at street view for that house/street, it actually seems like the kind of area where townhomes or a 4/6-plex would make sense. Very old, run down houses just off Route 7, behind a Taco Bell. Not a great location for a $2M house.

Literally no one said it was going to be affordable housing.

The anti-MM claimed the pro-MM were saying that, then putting signs in their yards saying "It's not affordable" as though that were some kind of gotcha.

The people with those signs never worked to increase the supply of affordable housing. They just wanted to say that MM isn't. We know that, cranky haves.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a house on 5041 25th Street S sold for $560k (4 beds 1 bath) to a developer who is going to tear it down and build 2 houses that probably cost a million each. Perfect example of pricing people out of Arlington - it’s going to be all renters and rich people. The proponents of MMH were so dishonest (or just really uninformed) - this was never going to help bring affordable housing or more housing for minorities - just more density.

The alternative was a builder buys it and builds a single 2.0 million house. Last time I checked 1.0 million is less than 2.0 million. It's adding more options in the middle.

No one ever said it was for affordable housing - you misunderstood them.

Well, the MM proponents were happy to have it misunderstood as "affordable housing" but plenty of people said it wouldn't be.

Looking at street view for that house/street, it actually seems like the kind of area where townhomes or a 4/6-plex would make sense. Very old, run down houses just off Route 7, behind a Taco Bell. Not a great location for a $2M house.

Literally no one said it was going to be affordable housing.

The anti-MM claimed the pro-MM were saying that, then putting signs in their yards saying "It's not affordable" as though that were some kind of gotcha.

The people with those signs never worked to increase the supply of affordable housing. They just wanted to say that MM isn't. We know that, cranky haves.

Exactly. The anti-MM crowd would still oppose missing middle if the county required all new housing to be committed affordable units. Affordability is not actually important to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


Well, the MM proponents were happy to have it misunderstood as "affordable housing" but plenty of people said it wouldn't be.

Looking at street view for that house/street, it actually seems like the kind of area where townhomes or a 4/6-plex would make sense. Very old, run down houses just off Route 7, behind a Taco Bell. Not a great location for a $2M house.


Literally no one said it was going to be affordable housing.

Depends on how you define affordable but Claremont has some of the more affordable single family homes in Arlington. They are applying for a semi-detached so 2 dwellings on that lot - it probably ends up being about the size of a McMansion but I would be shocked if they get more than 1 million for each unit. New build single family homes there barely crack 1 million. Maybe 800 - 900K each for what probably ends up being a pretty nice townhouse? 2 families get a place to live that is significantly better priced than a townhouse elsewhere in town. Seems like a win win.

[Anonymous]

You do know you can just stop builders. Buy Arlington did not.

My old town all 1,300 to 1,500 starter homes built 1953-1960 is 99 percent original homes. Affordable.

They triple taxes on new construction and drag permits forever. The smaller houses stop multi family and illegal rentals by size. Plus no second kitchens allowed and no bedrooms allowed in basement.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know if there is a way to see pictures of what is actually being proposed on all these sites? I'm so curious. Also, do they get to move ahead now or is everything really on hold until after the lawsuit?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So begins the decline of Arlington. More people will choose McLean or Bethesda once they see how neighborhoods get transformed by this stupidity.

I don’t think this will happen. I think people will continue to want Arlington for their commutes, or being near amenities, etc. Many of us may go private (like our family). But Arlington is still going to be desirable.

For many people, the dream of owning a SFH is about being on a quiet, peaceful street relatively free of density, not one clogged with cars and people. If people want density, they choose a townhouse or condo. Make no mistake, many people's property values will be negatively impacted.

It's like when you're considering buying a house, but the one next door has all the hallmarks of being inhabited by a hoarder (stuff all over the lawn and backyard, poorly cared for) -- you take a pass and wait for something better to come along. No different here.

Yesterday I literally had someone tell me they chose a SFH in Arlington bc it reminded them of a “city.” The home buying demographic is changing. People are valuing different things.

"city"
Where at? Residential Arlington parts are quite suburban and not walkable to anything more interesting than a strip mall if that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can just stop builders. Buy Arlington did not.

My old town all 1,300 to 1,500 starter homes built 1953-1960 is 99 percent original homes. Affordable.

They triple taxes on new construction and drag permits forever. The smaller houses stop multi family and illegal rentals by size. Plus no second kitchens allowed and no bedrooms allowed in basement.

I am guessing your town is rather small and not transient with loads of people moving in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a house on 5041 25th Street S sold for $560k (4 beds 1 bath) to a developer who is going to tear it down and build 2 houses that probably cost a million each. Perfect example of pricing people out of Arlington - it’s going to be all renters and rich people. The proponents of MMH were so dishonest (or just really uninformed) - this was never going to help bring affordable housing or more housing for minorities - just more density.

The alternative was a builder buys it and builds a single 2.0 million house. Last time I checked 1.0 million is less than 2.0 million. It's adding more options in the middle.

No one ever said it was for affordable housing - you misunderstood them.

townhomes at 1 mil sell quickly in desirable neighborhoods, much lower point of entry than SFHs. Also, these 1m townhomes would be brand new and likely more spacious inside with nicer easier to maintain landscaping. For many who aren't handy and/or don't have time/resources, new TH is a more desirable option than an old tiny fixer upper home on an unkempt lot that would end up costing more at the end with remodel/addition/landscaping redo.