NYTs: if affirmative action goes, say buy-bye to legacy, EA/ED, and most athletic preferences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can’t get rid of athletic preferences or they won’t be able to field a team. It makes no sense.

I still don’t see how colleges won’t be able to still keep doing it with.holistic admissions . The whole process is such a random crapshoot anyway,

Good. These are institutions of higher learning. Focus on that. Nothing else. Look at what most other countires do. Our system is so corrupted by $$

This.

The FTC should go after colleges for false marketing claims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You think the colleges are gonna depend on historical red lining to find diverse neighborhoods

Uh, that would include the very white and very poor places like, the Appalachias and West Virginia. The article discusses how socioeconomic diversity will become a driving factor. However, the weakness of focusing on socioeconomics generally is that poor kids don’t even both to apply unless there is sustained and targeted outreach. A poor black kid is more likely to apply than a poor white kid because of affirmative action.

Literally nobody Black applies to a school thinking they will get in because of affirmative action. The bulk of black kids who apply to top schools are the very best of the best, and the top school are losing those people at a rapid rate to HBCUs where they know for certain that they are being picked fairly because of their skill. You can talk about affirmative action all you want but even the most diverse major schools have no more than 9% black students, 4% less than Black representation in the country. Most fall in at 3-4% --WITH affirmative action and goals. I have absolutely no doubt that Asian kids are being discriminated against at school who don't want to "change their culture: because of alumni pressure. But I can guarantee you that Black students are not the beneficiaries of the discrimination. No majority white school afford of having too many Asians is filling up their ranks with Black people instead. They're filing them up with legacies, athletes and full pay ED students, who are white.

This!!! I went to an Ivy - there were very few URM. URM are not “taking” Asian kids’ slots at elite universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You think the colleges are gonna depend on historical red lining to find diverse neighborhoods

Uh, that would include the very white and very poor places like, the Appalachias and West Virginia. The article discusses how socioeconomic diversity will become a driving factor. However, the weakness of focusing on socioeconomics generally is that poor kids don’t even both to apply unless there is sustained and targeted outreach. A poor black kid is more likely to apply than a poor white kid because of affirmative action.

Literally nobody Black applies to a school thinking they will get in because of affirmative action. The bulk of black kids who apply to top schools are the very best of the best, and the top school are losing those people at a rapid rate to HBCUs where they know for certain that they are being picked fairly because of their skill. You can talk about affirmative action all you want but even the most diverse major schools have no more than 9% black students, 4% less than Black representation in the country. Most fall in at 3-4% --WITH affirmative action and goals. I have absolutely no doubt that Asian kids are being discriminated against at school who don't want to "change their culture: because of alumni pressure. But I can guarantee you that Black students are not the beneficiaries of the discrimination. No majority white school afford of having too many Asians is filling up their ranks with Black people instead. They're filing them up with legacies, athletes and full pay ED students, who are white.

This!!! I went to an Ivy - there were very few URM. URM are not “taking” Asian kids’ slots at elite universities.

Actually they/ you are. They/ you are stealing slots from Asian American kids and from poor/ unconnected white kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Merit Merit Merit
Nothing else
Will solve the admissions mess and the bloated salaries/insane tuitions
Burn it all down

And of course you want to be the one to define 'merit' for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can’t get rid of athletic preferences or they won’t be able to field a team. It makes no sense.

I still don’t see how colleges won’t be able to still keep doing it with.holistic admissions . The whole process is such a random crapshoot anyway,

Good. These are institutions of higher learning. Focus on that. Nothing else. Look at what most other countires do. Our system is so corrupted by $$

Our higher education system, whether you're right about the corruption or not, is the envy of the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can’t get rid of athletic preferences or they won’t be able to field a team. It makes no sense.

I still don’t see how colleges won’t be able to still keep doing it with.holistic admissions . The whole process is such a random crapshoot anyway,

Good. These are institutions of higher learning. Focus on that. Nothing else. Look at what most other countires do. Our system is so corrupted by $$

Our higher education system, whether you're right about the corruption or not, is the envy of the world.

Grad, not undergrad.

Few Europeans for example come to US colleges -- better and cheaper back home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can’t get rid of athletic preferences or they won’t be able to field a team. It makes no sense.

I still don’t see how colleges won’t be able to still keep doing it with.holistic admissions . The whole process is such a random crapshoot anyway,

Good. These are institutions of higher learning. Focus on that. Nothing else. Look at what most other countires do. Our system is so corrupted by $$

Our higher education system, whether you're right about the corruption or not, is the envy of the world.

Grad, not undergrad.

Few Europeans for example come to US colleges -- better and cheaper back home.

The world = Europe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with that. College admissions needs a massive overhaul.

Depending on what the Supreme Court says, one of the biggest changes will be elimination of any sort of “Women in STEM” outreach programs, preferences, or scholarships.

Be careful what you (ignorantly) wish for.

Sure. Unless you are an Asian American woman. What this article fails to mention is that the whole college admissions process has been blatantly racist against Asians. Also since we are talking about women girls in general are disadvantaged under admissions to make way for more males that are less qualified. Again college admission here needs an overhaul. Many other countries rely on other meritocratic measures for competitive college admissions and I am all for that.

LOL how is the current college environment “racist” against Asians when they are already represented 2-3x in elite colleges relative to their share of population? Your criticism makes zero sense. Asians are doing f#cking awesome under the current system.

Man, out of all of the arguments that I see on this issue, this is the one that I can’t stand the most.

The whole point is that colleges are using targeted methods to specifically depress the number of Asian students because, based on merit (and I’m talking about extracurricular activities, too, not just robotic-like grades and test scores), they would be an even larger share of their student classes. Asians are actually *underrepresented* at elite colleges compared to their percentage of the top academic talent.

The simple way to look at it is if we “find and replace” any reference to “Asian” with “Black” in the fact pattern.

Let’s say that out of Harvard applicants, Black students had the best GPAs, top test scores, and just as good or better metrics on extracurricular activities and in-person interviews than every other race (including whites). Yet, Harvard is worried that their classes would have too many Black students compared to other racial groups (including whites). Therefore, they use the admissions office to assign a totally subjective “personality score” that just “coincidentally” gives Black students lower scores compared to every other racial group and, as a result, depresses their admissions.

Just imagine if that was the fact pattern. We wouldn’t be having a discussion if that was racist or not - it’s pretty obvious. Yet, when we “find and replace” that fact pattern with references to Asians instead, it’s somehow isn’t racist?!

It bothers me so much because I actually *do* consider myself a liberal that believes in DEI efforts and can’t stand that my fellow liberals can’t simply acknowledge on this college admissions issue that they are outright discriminating against one minority group in favor of other minority groups. Instead, it’s all hemming and hawing about the value of diversity (as long as it’s the “right mix” of diversity), somehow Asians aren’t being discriminated against (often pointing to your “overrepresentation compared to the general population” argument, and pretty much every argument other than facing the fact that the tools they’re using are lowering Asian student numbers even more than white student numbers.

If that were at least acknowledged and then argued that such discrimination is outweighed by the greater good for allowing more Black and Latino students into elite colleges, then we can at least get somewhere even if we might not all agree. However, it’s the lack of the acknowledgment or outright denial of the discriminatory impact on Asian students in the first place that’s insulting (because as I’ve shown in my “find and replace” fact pattern above, Harvard’s tactics would be unambiguously seen as racist if it were Blacks and Latinos impacted as opposed to Asians).

You've shown absolutely nothing with your imaginary scenario. Why do you make the assumption that Asian students "had the best GPAs, top test scores, and just as good or better metrics on extracurricular activities and in-person interviews than every other race." While Asian students typically invest in GPA/test score results, you can't infer from a stats-based view (which is NOT merit in an of itself btw) that they are all superior in all ways or better candidates for a school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can’t get rid of athletic preferences or they won’t be able to field a team. It makes no sense.

I still don’t see how colleges won’t be able to still keep doing it with.holistic admissions . The whole process is such a random crapshoot anyway,

Good. These are institutions of higher learning. Focus on that. Nothing else. Look at what most other countires do. Our system is so corrupted by $$

Our higher education system, whether you're right about the corruption or not, is the envy of the world.

Grad, not undergrad.

Few Europeans for example come to US colleges -- better and cheaper back home.

The world = Europe

You made a global claim, I disproved it in a second using an obvious and substantial example. You can't handle it.

Typical American

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with that. College admissions needs a massive overhaul.

Depending on what the Supreme Court says, one of the biggest changes will be elimination of any sort of “Women in STEM” outreach programs, preferences, or scholarships.

Be careful what you (ignorantly) wish for.

Sure. Unless you are an Asian American woman. What this article fails to mention is that the whole college admissions process has been blatantly racist against Asians. Also since we are talking about women girls in general are disadvantaged under admissions to make way for more males that are less qualified. Again college admission here needs an overhaul. Many other countries rely on other meritocratic measures for competitive college admissions and I am all for that.

LOL how is the current college environment “racist” against Asians when they are already represented 2-3x in elite colleges relative to their share of population? Your criticism makes zero sense. Asians are doing f#cking awesome under the current system.

Man, out of all of the arguments that I see on this issue, this is the one that I can’t stand the most.

The whole point is that colleges are using targeted methods to specifically depress the number of Asian students because, based on merit (and I’m talking about extracurricular activities, too, not just robotic-like grades and test scores), they would be an even larger share of their student classes. Asians are actually *underrepresented* at elite colleges compared to their percentage of the top academic talent.

The simple way to look at it is if we “find and replace” any reference to “Asian” with “Black” in the fact pattern.

Let’s say that out of Harvard applicants, Black students had the best GPAs, top test scores, and just as good or better metrics on extracurricular activities and in-person interviews than every other race (including whites). Yet, Harvard is worried that their classes would have too many Black students compared to other racial groups (including whites). Therefore, they use the admissions office to assign a totally subjective “personality score” that just “coincidentally” gives Black students lower scores compared to every other racial group and, as a result, depresses their admissions.

Just imagine if that was the fact pattern. We wouldn’t be having a discussion if that was racist or not - it’s pretty obvious. Yet, when we “find and replace” that fact pattern with references to Asians instead, it’s somehow isn’t racist?!

It bothers me so much because I actually *do* consider myself a liberal that believes in DEI efforts and can’t stand that my fellow liberals can’t simply acknowledge on this college admissions issue that they are outright discriminating against one minority group in favor of other minority groups. Instead, it’s all hemming and hawing about the value of diversity (as long as it’s the “right mix” of diversity), somehow Asians aren’t being discriminated against (often pointing to your “overrepresentation compared to the general population” argument, and pretty much every argument other than facing the fact that the tools they’re using are lowering Asian student numbers even more than white student numbers.

If that were at least acknowledged and then argued that such discrimination is outweighed by the greater good for allowing more Black and Latino students into elite colleges, then we can at least get somewhere even if we might not all agree. However, it’s the lack of the acknowledgment or outright denial of the discriminatory impact on Asian students in the first place that’s insulting (because as I’ve shown in my “find and replace” fact pattern above, Harvard’s tactics would be unambiguously seen as racist if it were Blacks and Latinos impacted as opposed to Asians).

You've shown absolutely nothing with your imaginary scenario. Why do you make the assumption that Asian students "had the best GPAs, top test scores, and just as good or better metrics on extracurricular activities and in-person interviews than every other race." While Asian students typically invest in GPA/test score results, you can't infer from a stats-based view (which is NOT merit in an of itself btw) that they are all superior in all ways or better candidates for a school.

DP: Try to keep up with the Harvard case. It's eye-opening.

[Anonymous]

I want universities to be blind to everything except academic, and academic-adjacent, achievement. No legacy, athletics, development, family or ethnic background considerations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Merit Merit Merit
Nothing else
Will solve the admissions mess and the bloated salaries/insane tuitions
Burn it all down

Meritocracy is a myth in America.

Things were set up as a racial caste system centuries ago to benefit whites.

Even vaunted standardized testing started with racist origins. Yeah - merit.

Since this is a college / education forum, look at the K -12 system. Enough said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You think the colleges are gonna depend on historical red lining to find diverse neighborhoods

Uh, that would include the very white and very poor places like, the Appalachias and West Virginia. The article discusses how socioeconomic diversity will become a driving factor. However, the weakness of focusing on socioeconomics generally is that poor kids don’t even both to apply unless there is sustained and targeted outreach. A poor black kid is more likely to apply than a poor white kid because of affirmative action.

Literally nobody Black applies to a school thinking they will get in because of affirmative action. The bulk of black kids who apply to top schools are the very best of the best, and the top school are losing those people at a rapid rate to HBCUs where they know for certain that they are being picked fairly because of their skill. You can talk about affirmative action all you want but even the most diverse major schools have no more than 9% black students, 4% less than Black representation in the country. Most fall in at 3-4% --WITH affirmative action and goals. I have absolutely no doubt that Asian kids are being discriminated against at school who don't want to "change their culture: because of alumni pressure. But I can guarantee you that Black students are not the beneficiaries of the discrimination. No majority white school afford of having too many Asians is filling up their ranks with Black people instead. They're filing them up with legacies, athletes and full pay ED students, who are white.

This!!! I went to an Ivy - there were very few URM. URM are not “taking” Asian kids’ slots at elite universities.

Actually they/ you are. They/ you are stealing slots from Asian American kids and from poor/ unconnected white kids.

NP. No, they are not. For one, there are not many URMs on campuses at elite universities. Have you been? URMs have a far higher representation in the general public and a miniscule representation at elite Us. Go and look. Campuses are heavily white and Asian. US overall is 7% Asian, but Harvard is 27%.

And, this notion of stealing is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


I want universities to be blind to everything except academic, and academic-adjacent, achievement. No legacy, athletics, development, family or ethnic background considerations.

If that happens schools like Harvard will cease to be Harvard. What gives the elite schools, especially Ivy League, cultural and social capital in the US is all that you seek to eliminate. I don’t personally care but I recognize the world we live in.

[Anonymous]

University of Toronto admits a lot of kids, pretty much solely based on grades, and many kids find the school too difficult once they get there. Just an anecdote.