Outside-the-box guidance for evaluating DC elementary schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems like Brookland is geographically the "which of these things is not like the other". Why is it on your list? The neighborhood schools there are not great. There are a lot of area charters but having missed the Iottery, you won't get in. I would stop looking in Brookland, your search is too wide and you need to narrow it down.

+1. Unless you want to gamble on the lottery, I’d avoid Brookland. Petworth and Takoma have a few really great schools (Powell, Barnard, West, Whittier) but they lack the “desirable” feeder patterns to MS/HS you get from schools in Ward 3, Shepherd Park, and Mt. Pleasant. That being said, my kids attend one of those schools I mentioned, and we are really happy there. Good community feel and happy, experienced teachers.

I am the poster of list of the reasons we left a school (playground behavior etc.) It was one of the petworth schools listed above. People are always excited about the school and think it’s on a positive trajectory. It’s not a horrible place but there are still a lot of problems and that comes from the fact that the neighborhood still has a lot of issues, particularly drug related crime often extremely close to the school. I’m not stereotyping - I lived in the neighborhood a very long time and I am close friends with even longer-term residents. There a lot of people with really great intentions and positive thinking about some of the petworth DCPS schools. Those affirmations don’t always play out in reality though. I urge you to go check out the schools in person to the extent you are permitted. Linger, without looking too creepy, when kids are outside playing. Pay attention to what you see happening. I will also note that every communication received from the school was full of basic spelling errors. It did not instill confidence.

I’m not saying this to sound mean or negative but it became a really big source of stress in our lives. I’m just sharing my experience in hopes of helping other people navigate better than we did. My friends who ended up at charters we’re all happy. My friends who ended up at some of the local petworth DCPS continue trying to lottery into the charters.

The communications and chronic sloppy was a big issue for us too. It was to the point where I as PTA secretary wouldn't put things on the website or email list without a hard proofreading. The school got a new principal and AP, and they replaced the front office lady. That made a big difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve worked in both a highly rated, well liked on DCUM school and a poorly rated, Title I, rarely mentioned on DCUM school, both DCPS elementaries. I’ve also worked in two other elementary schools in two different states, one a typical upper middle class school and the other a Title I not as bad as DCPS but still low performing. For my own child what would make the difference is the level of joy in the school. The out of state Title I had just as many behavior problems as the Title I one DCPS, but overall the building had a sense of joy for students. We did fun school wide activities, we had celebrations, kids did fun projects as a school or grade. I still have some awesome memories of times with kids. The DCPS Title I the very first thing I noticed was the kids seemed depressed and admin wasn’t interested in making school a joyous place to be. The staff didn’t care either when I tried to organize some celebrations and events.

You can worry about test scores all day, but for a neurotypical child from an ordinary family will do just fine anywhere at the elementary level. But whether your kid loves school will be determined by the joy in the school. And from my years teaching, I see that kids who love school are more engaged and eager to learn.

Now, how do you figure out which schools have that sense of joy? That will be harder to figure out and I can’t really answer that. I would poke around on Facebook pages, PTA/PTO pages, Google them and see what comes up. Look at the kids in the pictures and what they are doing. What kind of events does the school have? Do they invite families into the building? Things like that.

As a self contained teacher teacher who works with children who are not neurotypical, I disagree that children who are can do well anywhere. Neurotypical children can still have behavioral issues, depression, anxiety, etc.

I have worked in a school on cap hill, NW, and my current school is in NE. My NE school is my favorite so far and title 1. I think the majority of our students love school and their teachers. I agree that super important. The tone of depression is definitely due to a school’s culture and how staff interacts with students and each other.

OP I’d also look for how involved the teachers are, less involved teachers is a sign that the school is horrible. Can you find pictures, clubs they run, on the school page what does it say about them?

Look on this forum (with a grain of salt) about what other parents have said about any particular school.

My child used to attend a NE school with a lot of self-contained (perhaps the same one) and the joy in that school was just off the charts. Test scores not so much, but they are improving. I think it was the principal's support, the kids themselves, having plenty of physical space for celebrations and fun stuff like visiting performers. Playworks was there for a while, and a cooking program and some of the kids in self-contained had a visiting theater troupe which was hilarious. We switched for academic reasons to a school that has a nice calm and happy vibe, but I still miss the way the old school was bursting with joy and liveliness. So if that's where you work, PP, you are doing great.

My kid was in self-contained in a NE Title 1 school. We LOVED it. The teacher was wonderful, full of joy and love and laughter. The therapists were wonderful too. We had to move for practical reasons but still miss that teacher and school so much! Not sure what school the PPs are talking about but this one was Langley.

[Anonymous]

We have attended a Title 1 and a JKLM.

Joy is not a word that I would associate with the JKLM. It is a large school that things it is awesome and the parents keep telling themselves that it is - but after seeing other places and what the schools and teachers do, it does not compare.

We made the move due to our concerns about middle school. I do think that Deal was a better choice for our children than where we would have fed - but it is not the end all be all. And it is a shame that DCPS continues to churn on the same issues over and over without materially moving the needle.

DCPS scores have gone up over the last 10 years - almost in lock step with the increase in the # of higher income families staying in the school system.

The gaps are still there - the behavior is still there - and given the current educational leadership of the city, I do not see anything different that is going to provide anything different anytime soon.

It is a shame - because the amount of $ that is in the school system is really high. But the results per dollar (in any form is low) And the school system makes it a battle EVERY YEAR for the higher performing schools to beg for their budgets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve worked in both a highly rated, well liked on DCUM school and a poorly rated, Title I, rarely mentioned on DCUM school, both DCPS elementaries. I’ve also worked in two other elementary schools in two different states, one a typical upper middle class school and the other a Title I not as bad as DCPS but still low performing. For my own child what would make the difference is the level of joy in the school. The out of state Title I had just as many behavior problems as the Title I one DCPS, but overall the building had a sense of joy for students. We did fun school wide activities, we had celebrations, kids did fun projects as a school or grade. I still have some awesome memories of times with kids. The DCPS Title I the very first thing I noticed was the kids seemed depressed and admin wasn’t interested in making school a joyous place to be. The staff didn’t care either when I tried to organize some celebrations and events.

You can worry about test scores all day, but for a neurotypical child from an ordinary family will do just fine anywhere at the elementary level. But whether your kid loves school will be determined by the joy in the school. And from my years teaching, I see that kids who love school are more engaged and eager to learn.

Now, how do you figure out which schools have that sense of joy? That will be harder to figure out and I can’t really answer that. I would poke around on Facebook pages, PTA/PTO pages, Google them and see what comes up. Look at the kids in the pictures and what they are doing. What kind of events does the school have? Do they invite families into the building? Things like that.

As a self contained teacher teacher who works with children who are not neurotypical, I disagree that children who are can do well anywhere. Neurotypical children can still have behavioral issues, depression, anxiety, etc.

I have worked in a school on cap hill, NW, and my current school is in NE. My NE school is my favorite so far and title 1. I think the majority of our students love school and their teachers. I agree that super important. The tone of depression is definitely due to a school’s culture and how staff interacts with students and each other.

OP I’d also look for how involved the teachers are, less involved teachers is a sign that the school is horrible. Can you find pictures, clubs they run, on the school page what does it say about them?

Look on this forum (with a grain of salt) about what other parents have said about any particular school.

My child used to attend a NE school with a lot of self-contained (perhaps the same one) and the joy in that school was just off the charts. Test scores not so much, but they are improving. I think it was the principal's support, the kids themselves, having plenty of physical space for celebrations and fun stuff like visiting performers. Playworks was there for a while, and a cooking program and some of the kids in self-contained had a visiting theater troupe which was hilarious. We switched for academic reasons to a school that has a nice calm and happy vibe, but I still miss the way the old school was bursting with joy and liveliness. So if that's where you work, PP, you are doing great.

My kid was in self-contained in a NE Title 1 school. We LOVED it. The teacher was wonderful, full of joy and love and laughter. The therapists were wonderful too. We had to move for practical reasons but still miss that teacher and school so much! Not sure what school the PPs are talking about but this one was Langley.

Yep it's Langley. I love that school so darn much. If younger DC were my oldest child she might be there now. The scores and overall functioning of the school has improved so fast, and I always liked the teachers. Seems like it is not a good location for the OP of this post though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi all, we're moving to DC and will have a child start 1st grade (and a second soon eligible for PK) next Fall. One challenge of a coast=to-coast move has been trying to assess the quality of a DC school beyond the ratings and statistics. Those metrics tell one side of the story but don't give us an idea of trends at the school or parent engagement, school leadership, etc. For instance, Bancroft in Mt. Pleasant has about 50% competency scores and is given the same Great Schools rating of 10 as Janney, which has almost 90% student competency on state tests. Bancroft is racially and economically very different than Janney (in a good way, in our opinion). And then there are a bunch of schools in between. How do we find other resources and info. about various public schools. Neighborhoods in DC we're open to moving to are Petworth, Shepherd Park, Takoma, Brookland and, if we can afford it, the northwest neighborhoods west of Rock Creek Park where all the highly rated schools are (Lafayette, Murch, Janney, etc.) Just reaching out here to see if there's a different approach you can recommend or other resources that are available that could help us. Reading some of the prior posts and threads here has been helpful. Thanks so much!

The data that would be most telling is some metric of staying enrolled at the school. For families that had options, did they stay or not.

We were enrolled at a Charter that had staff preference for enrollment. I watched and questioned what the children of teachers were doing. Were the teachers playing the lottery? Moving? Enrolling their children to begin with? Everyone needs to decide for themselves what works - I looked at this as an indicator.

There was data published 1 year for where children moved for schools / where students commuted. It was interesting but I only saw it once - probably 5 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi all, we're moving to DC and will have a child start 1st grade (and a second soon eligible for PK) next Fall. One challenge of a coast=to-coast move has been trying to assess the quality of a DC school beyond the ratings and statistics. Those metrics tell one side of the story but don't give us an idea of trends at the school or parent engagement, school leadership, etc. For instance, Bancroft in Mt. Pleasant has about 50% competency scores and is given the same Great Schools rating of 10 as Janney, which has almost 90% student competency on state tests. Bancroft is racially and economically very different than Janney (in a good way, in our opinion). And then there are a bunch of schools in between. How do we find other resources and info. about various public schools. Neighborhoods in DC we're open to moving to are Petworth, Shepherd Park, Takoma, Brookland and, if we can afford it, the northwest neighborhoods west of Rock Creek Park where all the highly rated schools are (Lafayette, Murch, Janney, etc.) Just reaching out here to see if there's a different approach you can recommend or other resources that are available that could help us. Reading some of the prior posts and threads here has been helpful. Thanks so much!

The data that would be most telling is some metric of staying enrolled at the school. For families that had options, did they stay or not.

We were enrolled at a Charter that had staff preference for enrollment. I watched and questioned what the children of teachers were doing. Were the teachers playing the lottery? Moving? Enrolling their children to begin with? Everyone needs to decide for themselves what works - I looked at this as an indicator.

There was data published 1 year for where children moved for schools / where students commuted. It was interesting but I only saw it once - probably 5 years ago.

Yes. I am sure Covid has wrought havoc with this metric like all the others, but it's a good one to check.

OP, I try to assess schools relative to their demographics. Low test scores without a lot of at-risk kids or kids with special needs means I want to dig deeper and ask why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It seems like Brookland is geographically the "which of these things is not like the other". Why is it on your list? The neighborhood schools there are not great. There are a lot of area charters but having missed the Iottery, you won't get in. I would stop looking in Brookland, your search is too wide and you need to narrow it down.

The Brookland area Elementary schools are just fine. If you talk to families in the are almost have had a positive experience at Bunker Hill, Noyes, Burroughs many DC families stay long past pre-k happily. Brookland middle has improved a lot and has a number of good programs as well. The DCPS schools in Brookland are just less white than the NW dcps schools.

[Anonymous]

Op, if diversity is a good thing why are you only looking in NW?? Fair warning DC is a great place to live but really expensive on so many levels. Whatever your house budget leave a lot of from for before & aftercare, summer camps and everything thing else. Food, going out swim or dance lessons and everything really add up fast.
I love DC but even with a cheaper house (not in NW) we can't afford to enjoy everything we would like to. Thankfully in non-covid time DC also has a lot of free stuff to do. But childcare/ kid activities and food costs are pretty darn high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our kids are in a high income boundary nw school. The school is lacking in diversity, and the social atmosphere is a bit cold, but it is otherwise a great school. The high test scores simply reflect the fact that the boundary is high-income. I am guessing that people rate Bancroft highly because it has a nice community and good teachers. My children were at a lower performing school before, but we liked that different levels were all being educated in the same classroom with all of their needs being met, and the community was really nice . It was a place where all children could succeed and systems were in place like interventionists to support children who were behind. I think Bancroft also is in the Wilson feeder pattern, which would make it a popular choice. Many families leave DCPS when it comes time for middle school. Good luck with your decisions!

So why did you change schools?

The commute to the other school was much shorter.

[Anonymous]

The book "The Smartest Kids In The World" has a great epilogue about what to ask students when checking out & evaluating a school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The book "The Smartest Kids In The World" has a great epilogue about what to ask students when checking out & evaluating a school.

https://1lib.us/book/2172514/c0e725

[Anonymous]

Some are so crowded that your 1st grader might not be able to get your pk4 child in, which would mean an extra year in private. Some have no space in aftercare.
Also, check out the fees for after care and the contributions to PTA.
We have been to two different schools and I'd rate one 10 and the other one 7. This asking for money 24/7 at 7, gets tiresome. The test scores have been much lower for years. Those are kids from 1.5+ million dollar homes with Sahms and they just can't catch up with neighboring school where most mothers and fathers work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some are so crowded that your 1st grader might not be able to get your pk4 child in, which would mean an extra year in private. Some have no space in aftercare.
Also, check out the fees for after care and the contributions to PTA.
We have been to two different schools and I'd rate one 10 and the other one 7. This asking for money 24/7 at 7, gets tiresome. The test scores have been much lower for years. Those are kids from 1.5+ million dollar homes with Sahms and they just can't catch up with neighboring school where most mothers and fathers work.

Which schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi all, we're moving to DC and will have a child start 1st grade (and a second soon eligible for PK) next Fall. One challenge of a coast=to-coast move has been trying to assess the quality of a DC school beyond the ratings and statistics. Those metrics tell one side of the story but don't give us an idea of trends at the school or parent engagement, school leadership, etc. For instance, Bancroft in Mt. Pleasant has about 50% competency scores and is given the same Great Schools rating of 10 as Janney, which has almost 90% student competency on state tests. Bancroft is racially and economically very different than Janney (in a good way, in our opinion). And then there are a bunch of schools in between. How do we find other resources and info. about various public schools. Neighborhoods in DC we're open to moving to are Petworth, Shepherd Park, Takoma, Brookland and, if we can afford it, the northwest neighborhoods west of Rock Creek Park where all the highly rated schools are (Lafayette, Murch, Janney, etc.) Just reaching out here to see if there's a different approach you can recommend or other resources that are available that could help us. Reading some of the prior posts and threads here has been helpful. Thanks so much!

Honestly I’d ignore Great Schools, check star ratings. Then, consider your housing budget. Skip the upper NW unless you need a very rarified white rich environment which you pay dearly for in housing costs. It only becomes perhaps appealing in middle school if need be, elementaries are good in much of the city.

Pick a neighborhood you like when you visit. I’d personally recommend Brookland for these ages, Burroughs is good and you can lottery into nearby charters with some luck if you aren’t content. Alternately I’d go IB maybe Shepherd or Powell. This is word of mouth info as we are in a charter.

For more details, try to join a local listserv and get personal input from soon to be neighbors.

If you can afford IB for Bancroft great but prices are as high as west of the park.

[Anonymous]

If you really like Brookland, you could do a DCPS school and have a plan of attending a charter middle. But given what you say about work locations, OP, that alone would make me rule out Brookland. Traffic is terrible here in normal times.