Unlearning intelligence as worth

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think you should label kids that like that anyway. What's the point of telling a child they aren't athletic or aren't musical?

Also, there are lots of different types of intelligence. I think it's okay to say your child "Isn't really into math right now" or something, but just blanket saying "They're not intelligent" probably isn't correct.

Everyone has skills that come naturally and others that require more work. One of my sons is a natural athletes who is able to become proficient in whatever sport he tries rather quickly. It's not that he's faster, or stronger, because he's not, but for whatever reason, he can manage the basics of any sport he tries. However, his mental attitude isn't the best, so his natural athleticism only takes him so far before he is surpassed by less athletic kids who are hard workers.

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with recognizing individual strengths and weaknesses, although these should not be stressed at a young age. My other not naturally athletic son who is really slow has become a competent soccer player by figuring out how to use his understanding of the game, which includes recognizing his lack of speed, and his technical skill to be effective on the field. Obviously he's not going to play at a high level, but that won't stop him from playing despite not being a natural athlete.

Hard work, passion, commitment can overcome lack of natural ability in many cases. Lack of significant interest and lack of natural talent should not stop anyone from doing something they love, but sometimes as parents, it's better to manage expectations to steer your kids into the right environment where they will succeed and be happy.

In a way I see your point, but also, I think it's unfair/counterproductive in you family that one chid is labeled athletic and one isn't even though the "athletic" child doesn't seem to really excel in sports while the "non-athletic child" seems to enjoy sports and do better at them in the long run. My point is, why bother thinking of your children that way?

To answer your question, I don't really think of them that way. They compare themselves to each other. The child I described as athletic does excel at sports in a the setting that works for him, but its been a journey to find that right level. Sometimes, natural ability is a negative, not a pro, because it sets up expectations that might not align with your work ethic or even your desires. And for kids and parents, sorting through that is tough, especially as kids get older and have to prioritize.

The point I was trying to make is that I've heard my one son who is not a natural athlete express embarrassment about how slow he is, without giving himself credit for what he does in other areas. That's what he should feel good about and that's what is most important in life.

The same is true for intelligence. All kids have different starting points in terms of ability, but ultimately what determines how far you go is work, effort, and passion. They key is not letting a kid who might have started with a little less natural ability get discouraged along the way.

Back to sports, I read an article about Luca Garza, who's a basketball player for the University of Iowa who is one of the more celebrated players in the country. The article describes how in any game he plays in, he's probably the least athletic player on the court. But he has worked on his fitness, to be the best player he can be in his body, and learned to use his basketball IQ to overcome his athletic limitations. That's what I'm talking about.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/basketball/bs-sp-luka-garza-iowa-20200110-ve7cpukqyrajpftjrb44yelqgq-story.html

[Anonymous]

PP adding that I have a large family, and each of my kids has amazing qualities and some weakness, just like all of us.

The problem with branding any kid as being "smart" or not smart is that it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. In my opinion, that's one of the problems with tracking kids early. A kid who told he is smart from a young age might persist in learning a difficult concept because, you know, he's smart. He will get it. Another kid who didn't get tracked in a high group because he was bouncing off the walls and not able to sit still internalizes himself as being in the "dumb" group, and therefore doesn't put the effort into learning, because, what's the point? He's not smart. I've seen it with my kids and tell them all the time that the kids who do the best aren't necessarily smarter, but actually work harder. The hard work option is available to them too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently read something that struck me at the time and stayed with me, and I'm curious for others' take on it. Essentially, it was pointing out that while we consider it totally acceptable and nonjudgmental to say "oh Larla isn't terribly athletic" or "Larlo isn't a very musical kid," it comes off as incredibly unkind to say that a child -- yours or someone else's -- isn't very smart. And yet of course there are a lot of people in the world who aren't very smart, and they're not less valuable as human beings than smart people.

Do you think it's a good goal, as parents or just as fellow people, to unlearn our notion that intelligence somehow equates to worth? How would you approach it?

Do you have a link to what you read?

It’s a review of The Cult of Smart. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-cult-of-smart

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP adding that I have a large family, and each of my kids has amazing qualities and some weakness, just like all of us.

The problem with branding any kid as being "smart" or not smart is that it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. In my opinion, that's one of the problems with tracking kids early. A kid who told he is smart from a young age might persist in learning a difficult concept because, you know, he's smart. He will get it. Another kid who didn't get tracked in a high group because he was bouncing off the walls and not able to sit still internalizes himself as being in the "dumb" group, and therefore doesn't put the effort into learning, because, what's the point? He's not smart. I've seen it with my kids and tell them all the time that the kids who do the best aren't necessarily smarter, but actually work harder. The hard work option is available to them too.

I'm the growth mindset poster, and I have found "smart" kids don't always persist in doing hard things, partially because they rarely needed to so they don't know how and partially because it's too risky to fail and then not be "smart." They can't allow failure to happen when smart is their identity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have you ever met someone who doesn’t think they’re smart? I never have.

Um, a lot of special needs kids feel this way.

[Anonymous]

OP again.

I agree about it being counterproductive to label kids, and not ideal to compare siblings. But it is just true that some people are more artistic, musical, athletic, than others, and we don't generally consider that a value judgment, but we do consider it a value judgment to say that someone is less intelligent than someone else.

I would never tell my kids that one of them is more athletic than the other, even if it's true; I don't even say that one of them is a more visual thinker and the other is more abstract, because I don't want them to develop an "oh that's not who I am" attitude about things they haven't been exposed to yet. But...come on, there are people out there who are not intelligent, and in a perfect world saying that would be like saying "there are people who have no ear for music."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you ever met someone who doesn’t think they’re smart? I never have.

Um, a lot of special needs kids feel this way.

Pretty much every ADHD kid I know feels that way. And here is the thinking.

Smart = Good Grades
Not Smart = Bad Grades

When you continuously get bad grades because you got the assignment wrong, or turned it in late or left it at home, you internalize that you are not smart. Obviously, at some point in life, everyone has to be accountable for work and meeting deadlines. However, many kids are not at this level of maturity in 5th and 6th grade, when their grades start sliding with increased expectations. They get bad grades, decide they are not smart and stop trying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP adding that I have a large family, and each of my kids has amazing qualities and some weakness, just like all of us.

The problem with branding any kid as being "smart" or not smart is that it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. In my opinion, that's one of the problems with tracking kids early. A kid who told he is smart from a young age might persist in learning a difficult concept because, you know, he's smart. He will get it. Another kid who didn't get tracked in a high group because he was bouncing off the walls and not able to sit still internalizes himself as being in the "dumb" group, and therefore doesn't put the effort into learning, because, what's the point? He's not smart. I've seen it with my kids and tell them all the time that the kids who do the best aren't necessarily smarter, but actually work harder. The hard work option is available to them too.

I'm the growth mindset poster, and I have found "smart" kids don't always persist in doing hard things, partially because they rarely needed to so they don't know how and partially because it's too risky to fail and then not be "smart." They can't allow failure to happen when smart is their identity.

From personal experience, it seems to be more the former than the latter. Many never learn how to learn because they are only given material that comes easily to them until about 8th grade and they also learn very early to distrust praise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again.

I agree about it being counterproductive to label kids, and not ideal to compare siblings. But it is just true that some people are more artistic, musical, athletic, than others, and we don't generally consider that a value judgment, but we do consider it a value judgment to say that someone is less intelligent than someone else.

I would never tell my kids that one of them is more athletic than the other, even if it's true; I don't even say that one of them is a more visual thinker and the other is more abstract, because I don't want them to develop an "oh that's not who I am" attitude about things they haven't been exposed to yet. But...come on, there are people out there who are not intelligent, and in a perfect world saying that would be like saying "there are people who have no ear for music."

There are also different types of intelligence. IQ is not the same as intelligence and there are different types of intelligence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again.

I agree about it being counterproductive to label kids, and not ideal to compare siblings. But it is just true that some people are more artistic, musical, athletic, than others, and we don't generally consider that a value judgment, but we do consider it a value judgment to say that someone is less intelligent than someone else.

I would never tell my kids that one of them is more athletic than the other, even if it's true; I don't even say that one of them is a more visual thinker and the other is more abstract, because I don't want them to develop an "oh that's not who I am" attitude about things they haven't been exposed to yet. But...come on, there are people out there who are not intelligent, and in a perfect world saying that would be like saying "there are people who have no ear for music."

I disagree, the number one reason grade school boys are bullied, by other kids AND adults, is due to athleticism. In fact, segments of our society value athletics over intelligence and would consider the label unathletic a greater put down than not smart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have you ever met someone who doesn’t think they’re smart? I never have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently read something that struck me at the time and stayed with me, and I'm curious for others' take on it. Essentially, it was pointing out that while we consider it totally acceptable and nonjudgmental to say "oh Larla isn't terribly athletic" or "Larlo isn't a very musical kid," it comes off as incredibly unkind to say that a child -- yours or someone else's -- isn't very smart. And yet of course there are a lot of people in the world who aren't very smart, and they're not less valuable as human beings than smart people.

Do you think it's a good goal, as parents or just as fellow people, to unlearn our notion that intelligence somehow equates to worth? How would you approach it?

Do you have a link to what you read?

It’s a review of The Cult of Smart. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-cult-of-smart

Really surprised to see SSC/dcurbanmom overlap. Cool...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you need to look into growth mindset. To me the issue with saying some IS/IS NOT smart, athletic, or whatever, is it locks them into that and there's nothing they can do to change it. Even if it's true to some extent, it's not helpful for life.

I didn't see the post above mine before I posted, but those examples are basically what I'm talking about.

Carol Dweck is a leader on growth mindset theories. You can read her books or watch her videos to understand more on this.

Carol Dweck also specializes in studies that have, so far, not been replicable by anyone who isn't Carol Dweck. Nobody is able to get results from growth mindset besides her.

https://russellwarne.com/2020/01/03/the-one-variable-that-makes-growth-mindset-interventions-work/

https://russellwarne.com/2020/04/03/mindset-theory-in-jeopardy-after-2-new-studies/

Think about this the next time your school spends the entire first week of math class on walking all the kids through growth mindset interventions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently read something that struck me at the time and stayed with me, and I'm curious for others' take on it. Essentially, it was pointing out that while we consider it totally acceptable and nonjudgmental to say "oh Larla isn't terribly athletic" or "Larlo isn't a very musical kid," it comes off as incredibly unkind to say that a child -- yours or someone else's -- isn't very smart. And yet of course there are a lot of people in the world who aren't very smart, and they're not less valuable as human beings than smart people.

Do you think it's a good goal, as parents or just as fellow people, to unlearn our notion that intelligence somehow equates to worth? How would you approach it?

Do you have a link to what you read?

It’s a review of The Cult of Smart. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-cult-of-smart

Really surprised to see SSC/dcurbanmom overlap. Cool...

I’m surprised to see you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently read something that struck me at the time and stayed with me, and I'm curious for others' take on it. Essentially, it was pointing out that while we consider it totally acceptable and nonjudgmental to say "oh Larla isn't terribly athletic" or "Larlo isn't a very musical kid," it comes off as incredibly unkind to say that a child -- yours or someone else's -- isn't very smart. And yet of course there are a lot of people in the world who aren't very smart, and they're not less valuable as human beings than smart people.

Do you think it's a good goal, as parents or just as fellow people, to unlearn our notion that intelligence somehow equates to worth? How would you approach it?

Do you have a link to what you read?

It’s a review of The Cult of Smart. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-cult-of-smart

Really surprised to see SSC/dcurbanmom overlap. Cool...

I’m surprised to see you.

I'm at [e-mail] if you want to like, fight or kiss or whatever.