4 years of foreign language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is 11th grade so I can't firsthand answer your question, OP. But, within the last few years my sister's daughter finished FL in grade 11 at spanish 4 honors because the ap spanish class didn't fit into her schedule senior year so that she could fit in ap calculus and ap statistics which she considered more relevant for her interests than ap spanish. She was a top student in her graduating class with strong sat scores but did not get into UVA as an out of state student (of course always a crapshoot) and after the fact was told that UVA admissions considered it a negative that she didn't continue into ap spanish as a senior.

UVA is very clear that it wants to see applicants take the most rigorous and advanced courses offered by the high school. In fact, the counselor is asked to check off a box marked “did this student take the most rigorous courses offered”. Also, a profile of the high school class is sent which shows exactly what foreign language courses are offered and where or not Honors and AP foreign language courses were offered. Ideally they would also like to see high scores in the SAT subject matter test in a language. (A friend’s son got into Princeton with an 800 on the SAT II test in Latin). AP tests might also get you out of some of the college foreign language requirements - UVA’s is two years. The admissions office looks upon the completion of four years as a demonstration of ability to apply one’s self to a multi-year project, much like national awards or advanced levels in scouting. They also want to see the applicant’s interested in becoming citizens of the world, doing research overseas, winning Fulbrights, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is 11th grade so I can't firsthand answer your question, OP. But, within the last few years my sister's daughter finished FL in grade 11 at spanish 4 honors because the ap spanish class didn't fit into her schedule senior year so that she could fit in ap calculus and ap statistics which she considered more relevant for her interests than ap spanish. She was a top student in her graduating class with strong sat scores but did not get into UVA as an out of state student (of course always a crapshoot) and after the fact was told that UVA admissions considered it a negative that she didn't continue into ap spanish as a senior.

UVA is very clear that it wants to see applicants take the most rigorous and advanced courses offered by the high school. In fact, the counselor is asked to check off a box marked “did this student take the most rigorous courses offered”. Also, a profile of the high school class is sent which shows exactly what foreign language courses are offered and where or not Honors and AP foreign language courses were offered. Ideally they would also like to see high scores in the SAT subject matter test in a language. (A friend’s son got into Princeton with an 800 on the SAT II test in Latin). AP tests might also get you out of some of the college foreign language requirements - UVA’s is two years. The admissions office looks upon the completion of four years as a demonstration of ability to apply one’s self to a multi-year project, much like national awards or advanced levels in scouting. They also want to see the applicant’s interested in becoming citizens of the world, doing research overseas, winning Fulbrights, etc.

Okay, but wouldn't taking math thru ap calculus and ap stats also indicate a most rigorous course load? I know that her counselor gave her schedule that designation. It was a choice whether to take ap spanish or ap stats in her senior year schedule, because they conflicted. Apparently her counselor had added a note to her application indicating the reason she was unable to take ap spanish. My niece was given the impression by UVA admissions that they would have preferred she pick up level 1 of a new language simply to have 4 years of FL taken while in high school, which seems very form over substance to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An unmotivated or incapable kid who does only 2 years of a foreign language is very likely deficient in other ways to get into an Ivy, SLAC or even any top 500 school but community college is a good option. Some kids mature late and others just need the basics to get a job slightly above minimum wage.

Thanks for the snarky comment. My kid took 2 years of language in high school and 3 in middle school. For college admissions purposes only the high school years are counted. My kid got into Michigan, Georgia Tech, UiUC and UMD Honors college with Scholarship. Can’t believe how mean DCUMER’s can be!

The questions should be, how do you take only 2 years of language in high school if high school is 4 years. Language is not a subject you stop and start or start in last 2 years of high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An unmotivated or incapable kid who does only 2 years of a foreign language is very likely deficient in other ways to get into an Ivy, SLAC or even any top 500 school but community college is a good option. Some kids mature late and others just need the basics to get a job slightly above minimum wage.

Thanks for the snarky comment. My kid took 2 years of language in high school and 3 in middle school. For college admissions purposes only the high school years are counted. My kid got into Michigan, Georgia Tech, UiUC and UMD Honors college with Scholarship. Can’t believe how mean DCUMER’s can be!

The questions should be, how do you take only 2 years of language in high school if high school is 4 years. Language is not a subject you stop and start or start in last 2 years of high school.

My kid took 2 in middle and 2 in HS. He was really struggling and had low grades. Decided he should focus on his strengths. No trouble with college admissions and merit aid...not ivy level but strong schools. He was applying for engineering. Might have been different at less techy schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is 11th grade so I can't firsthand answer your question, OP. But, within the last few years my sister's daughter finished FL in grade 11 at spanish 4 honors because the ap spanish class didn't fit into her schedule senior year so that she could fit in ap calculus and ap statistics which she considered more relevant for her interests than ap spanish. She was a top student in her graduating class with strong sat scores but did not get into UVA as an out of state student (of course always a crapshoot) and after the fact was told that UVA admissions considered it a negative that she didn't continue into ap spanish as a senior.

UVA is very clear that it wants to see applicants take the most rigorous and advanced courses offered by the high school. In fact, the counselor is asked to check off a box marked “did this student take the most rigorous courses offered”. Also, a profile of the high school class is sent which shows exactly what foreign language courses are offered and where or not Honors and AP foreign language courses were offered. Ideally they would also like to see high scores in the SAT subject matter test in a language. (A friend’s son got into Princeton with an 800 on the SAT II test in Latin). AP tests might also get you out of some of the college foreign language requirements - UVA’s is two years. The admissions office looks upon the completion of four years as a demonstration of ability to apply one’s self to a multi-year project, much like national awards or advanced levels in scouting. They also want to see the applicant’s interested in becoming citizens of the world, doing research overseas, winning Fulbrights, etc.

Okay, but wouldn't taking math thru ap calculus and ap stats also indicate a most rigorous course load? I know that her counselor gave her schedule that designation. It was a choice whether to take ap spanish or ap stats in her senior year schedule, because they conflicted. Apparently her counselor had added a note to her application indicating the reason she was unable to take ap spanish. My niece was given the impression by UVA admissions that they would have preferred she pick up level 1 of a new language simply to have 4 years of FL taken while in high school, which seems very form over substance to me.

Perhaps but then at UVA she would be given the choicel again to pick any language to study for two or more years (an amazing range including Esperanto and Urdu). My DC switched from Spanish after four years to German, which may have helped him later get into Oxbridge because some of the original texts he is using are in German. What you don’t want to hear is that you, your daughter and counselor should have planned out her schedule starting sophomore year so this didn’t happen. And, if it happens, then you do what my DC did, which is take the language courses, or in her case AP/college chemistry, at a community college. She also registered as a non-degree student at George Mason University for extra courses I. Evenings and summers. UVA took the credits but not the grades but I suspect the added grit demonstrated by taking college courses helped his application.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is 11th grade so I can't firsthand answer your question, OP. But, within the last few years my sister's daughter finished FL in grade 11 at spanish 4 honors because the ap spanish class didn't fit into her schedule senior year so that she could fit in ap calculus and ap statistics which she considered more relevant for her interests than ap spanish. She was a top student in her graduating class with strong sat scores but did not get into UVA as an out of state student (of course always a crapshoot) and after the fact was told that UVA admissions considered it a negative that she didn't continue into ap spanish as a senior.

UVA is very clear that it wants to see applicants take the most rigorous and advanced courses offered by the high school. In fact, the counselor is asked to check off a box marked “did this student take the most rigorous courses offered”. Also, a profile of the high school class is sent which shows exactly what foreign language courses are offered and where or not Honors and AP foreign language courses were offered. Ideally they would also like to see high scores in the SAT subject matter test in a language. (A friend’s son got into Princeton with an 800 on the SAT II test in Latin). AP tests might also get you out of some of the college foreign language requirements - UVA’s is two years. The admissions office looks upon the completion of four years as a demonstration of ability to apply one’s self to a multi-year project, much like national awards or advanced levels in scouting. They also want to see the applicant’s interested in becoming citizens of the world, doing research overseas, winning Fulbrights, etc.

Okay, but wouldn't taking math thru ap calculus and ap stats also indicate a most rigorous course load? I know that her counselor gave her schedule that designation. It was a choice whether to take ap spanish or ap stats in her senior year schedule, because they conflicted. Apparently her counselor had added a note to her application indicating the reason she was unable to take ap spanish. My niece was given the impression by UVA admissions that they would have preferred she pick up level 1 of a new language simply to have 4 years of FL taken while in high school, which seems very form over substance to me.

Perhaps but then at UVA she would be given the choicel again to pick any language to study for two or more years (an amazing range including Esperanto and Urdu). My DC switched from Spanish after four years to German, which may have helped him later get into Oxbridge because some of the original texts he is using are in German. What you don’t want to hear is that you, your daughter and counselor should have planned out her schedule starting sophomore year so this didn’t happen. And, if it happens, then you do what my DC did, which is take the language courses, or in her case AP/college chemistry, at a community college. She also registered as a non-degree student at George Mason University for extra courses I. Evenings and summers. UVA took the credits but not the grades but I suspect the added grit demonstrated by taking college courses helped his application.

First, this is my niece, so I wasn't involved in her course planning.

Second, I shared the anecdote to help with OP's question which relates to your point that early planning is helpful.

Third, if in fact that was the deciding factor for my niece's non-admission to UVA, it still seems form over substance to me because many students have very rigorous schedules which do not include ap FL - (in fact, more rigorous since any double period ap science, high level engineering or double period music class would be considered much harder than ap spanish lang in my children's mcps hs).

Your child's schedule was admirable but not typical especially for students who are also involved in sports and other extracurriculars which require them to be at school as soon as the day ends so don't have time to return from community college. (and level 1 of German hardly would have enabled your child read original texts in German - s/he must have pursued more German study in undergrad which seems perfectly appropriate to me.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is 11th grade so I can't firsthand answer your question, OP. But, within the last few years my sister's daughter finished FL in grade 11 at spanish 4 honors because the ap spanish class didn't fit into her schedule senior year so that she could fit in ap calculus and ap statistics which she considered more relevant for her interests than ap spanish. She was a top student in her graduating class with strong sat scores but did not get into UVA as an out of state student (of course always a crapshoot) and after the fact was told that UVA admissions considered it a negative that she didn't continue into ap spanish as a senior.

UVA is very clear that it wants to see applicants take the most rigorous and advanced courses offered by the high school. In fact, the counselor is asked to check off a box marked “did this student take the most rigorous courses offered”. Also, a profile of the high school class is sent which shows exactly what foreign language courses are offered and where or not Honors and AP foreign language courses were offered. Ideally they would also like to see high scores in the SAT subject matter test in a language. (A friend’s son got into Princeton with an 800 on the SAT II test in Latin). AP tests might also get you out of some of the college foreign language requirements - UVA’s is two years. The admissions office looks upon the completion of four years as a demonstration of ability to apply one’s self to a multi-year project, much like national awards or advanced levels in scouting. They also want to see the applicant’s interested in becoming citizens of the world, doing research overseas, winning Fulbrights, etc.

Okay, but wouldn't taking math thru ap calculus and ap stats also indicate a most rigorous course load? I know that her counselor gave her schedule that designation. It was a choice whether to take ap spanish or ap stats in her senior year schedule, because they conflicted. Apparently her counselor had added a note to her application indicating the reason she was unable to take ap spanish. My niece was given the impression by UVA admissions that they would have preferred she pick up level 1 of a new language simply to have 4 years of FL taken while in high school, which seems very form over substance to me.

Perhaps but then at UVA she would be given the choicel again to pick any language to study for two or more years (an amazing range including Esperanto and Urdu). My DC switched from Spanish after four years to German, which may have helped him later get into Oxbridge because some of the original texts he is using are in German. What you don’t want to hear is that you, your daughter and counselor should have planned out her schedule starting sophomore year so this didn’t happen. And, if it happens, then you do what my DC did, which is take the language courses, or in her case AP/college chemistry, at a community college. She also registered as a non-degree student at George Mason University for extra courses I. Evenings and summers. UVA took the credits but not the grades but I suspect the added grit demonstrated by taking college courses helped his application.

First, this is my niece, so I wasn't involved in her course planning.

Second, I shared the anecdote to help with OP's question which relates to your point that early planning is helpful.

Third, if in fact that was the deciding factor for my niece's non-admission to UVA, it still seems form over substance to me because many students have very rigorous schedules which do not include ap FL - (in fact, more rigorous since any double period ap science, high level engineering or double period music class would be considered much harder than ap spanish lang in my children's mcps hs).

Your child's schedule was admirable but not typical especially for students who are also involved in sports and other extracurriculars which require them to be at school as soon as the day ends so don't have time to return from community college. (and level 1 of German hardly would have enabled your child read original texts in German - s/he must have pursued more German study in undergrad which seems perfectly appropriate to me.)

DP but grateful for your story because it sheds a lot of insight into the UVA admissions process and is generally really helpful. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

So my kid is a high stats senior at TJ. He did only 2 years of Latin there. He took many computer science classes. Should he expect not to get into UVA then? Why don’t school counselors make it clear that colleges like UVA also want 4 years of a foreign language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is 11th grade so I can't firsthand answer your question, OP. But, within the last few years my sister's daughter finished FL in grade 11 at spanish 4 honors because the ap spanish class didn't fit into her schedule senior year so that she could fit in ap calculus and ap statistics which she considered more relevant for her interests than ap spanish. She was a top student in her graduating class with strong sat scores but did not get into UVA as an out of state student (of course always a crapshoot) and after the fact was told that UVA admissions considered it a negative that she didn't continue into ap spanish as a senior.

UVA is very clear that it wants to see applicants take the most rigorous and advanced courses offered by the high school. In fact, the counselor is asked to check off a box marked “did this student take the most rigorous courses offered”. Also, a profile of the high school class is sent which shows exactly what foreign language courses are offered and where or not Honors and AP foreign language courses were offered. Ideally they would also like to see high scores in the SAT subject matter test in a language. (A friend’s son got into Princeton with an 800 on the SAT II test in Latin). AP tests might also get you out of some of the college foreign language requirements - UVA’s is two years. The admissions office looks upon the completion of four years as a demonstration of ability to apply one’s self to a multi-year project, much like national awards or advanced levels in scouting. They also want to see the applicant’s interested in becoming citizens of the world, doing research overseas, winning Fulbrights, etc.

Okay, but wouldn't taking math thru ap calculus and ap stats also indicate a most rigorous course load? I know that her counselor gave her schedule that designation. It was a choice whether to take ap spanish or ap stats in her senior year schedule, because they conflicted. Apparently her counselor had added a note to her application indicating the reason she was unable to take ap spanish. My niece was given the impression by UVA admissions that they would have preferred she pick up level 1 of a new language simply to have 4 years of FL taken while in high school, which seems very form over substance to me.

Perhaps but then at UVA she would be given the choicel again to pick any language to study for two or more years (an amazing range including Esperanto and Urdu). My DC switched from Spanish after four years to German, which may have helped him later get into Oxbridge because some of the original texts he is using are in German. What you don’t want to hear is that you, your daughter and counselor should have planned out her schedule starting sophomore year so this didn’t happen. And, if it happens, then you do what my DC did, which is take the language courses, or in her case AP/college chemistry, at a community college. She also registered as a non-degree student at George Mason University for extra courses I. Evenings and summers. UVA took the credits but not the grades but I suspect the added grit demonstrated by taking college courses helped his application.

First, this is my niece, so I wasn't involved in her course planning.

Second, I shared the anecdote to help with OP's question which relates to your point that early planning is helpful.

Third, if in fact that was the deciding factor for my niece's non-admission to UVA, it still seems form over substance to me because many students have very rigorous schedules which do not include ap FL - (in fact, more rigorous since any double period ap science, high level engineering or double period music class would be considered much harder than ap spanish lang in my children's mcps hs).

Your child's schedule was admirable but not typical especially for students who are also involved in sports and other extracurriculars which require them to be at school as soon as the day ends so don't have time to return from community college. (and level 1 of German hardly would have enabled your child read original texts in German - s/he must have pursued more German study in undergrad which seems perfectly appropriate to me.)

DP but grateful for your story because it sheds a lot of insight into the UVA admissions process and is generally really helpful. Thank you.

You’re welcome. You try to help someone and they get weirdly defensive and snarky. And as to the German, it was two years of college German (not high school) and she spent two “J” terms in Germany with a UVA study program and one summer at Oxford pricing himself. She us fully conversant and can read texts. In my mind what UVA is looking for us grit, follow through and the ability to discipline oneself

[Anonymous]

^herself^ sorry on small phone whike waiting on hold for Amazon

[Anonymous]

We were JUST watching a video by UVA Dean J about this. It says four years is not an admission requirement, but that it helps with the requirement in the A&S school there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An unmotivated or incapable kid who does only 2 years of a foreign language is very likely deficient in other ways to get into an Ivy, SLAC or even any top 500 school but community college is a good option. Some kids mature late and others just need the basics to get a job slightly above minimum wage.

Thanks for the snarky comment. My kid took 2 years of language in high school and 3 in middle school. For college admissions purposes only the high school years are counted. My kid got into Michigan, Georgia Tech, UiUC and UMD Honors college with Scholarship. Can’t believe how mean DCUMER’s can be!

My kid did 3 yrs of FL in MS (level 1, 2 and 3). They took 2 years in HS (level 4 and AP). There was nothing else offered after that in the school so that was that. Earned As in all of the courses and a 4 in the AP (not the greatest but it was the wonky DL virtual AP last academic year with a lot of difficulties and a real weird format). NOW, he is applying to Ivies and on his transcripts they will show all 5 years of FL. And will also show that the highest course in FL offered in the school was taken by him. So there is that.

My kid is in MCPS. You can see details of all courses taken and grades recieved since MS under the "Student Course History" tab in ParentVue. It clearly tells you if the course earned high school credits or not.

Colleges can slice and dice courses anyway they want but they are certainly not looking down at a 4 earned in a FL AP.

[Anonymous]

I don't know if this is helpful but.. one of my kids took three years of foreign language and got into multiple top SLACs. We actually argued about that 4th year and I emailed an admissions officer who told me the following:

First, my kid was not taking Spanish 1-3. She had taken a full schedule in middle school so her level was higher. He said that they look at that favorably.

Second, that since my kid was foregoing Spanish to take additional a second difficult science, there was no issue. The concern is about taking easy classes.

So by that I understand that: Three years is probably better than 2. If your child's foreign language level is higher than introductory, that is also good. If your child is substituting difficult science/ math or coursework in an area of focus, that could also be important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An unmotivated or incapable kid who does only 2 years of a foreign language is very likely deficient in other ways to get into an Ivy, SLAC or even any top 500 school but community college is a good option. Some kids mature late and others just need the basics to get a job slightly above minimum wage.

Thanks for the snarky comment. My kid took 2 years of language in high school and 3 in middle school. For college admissions purposes only the high school years are counted. My kid got into Michigan, Georgia Tech, UiUC and UMD Honors college with Scholarship. Can’t believe how mean DCUMER’s can be!

My kid did 3 yrs of FL in MS (level 1, 2 and 3). They took 2 years in HS (level 4 and AP). There was nothing else offered after that in the school so that was that. [b]Earned As in all of the courses and a 4 in the AP (not the greatest but it was the wonky DL virtual AP last academic year with a lot of difficulties and a real weird format). NOW, he is applying to Ivies and on his transcripts they will show all 5 years of FL. And will also show that the highest course in FL offered in the school was taken by him. So there is that.

My kid is in MCPS. You can see details of all courses taken and grades recieved since MS under the "Student Course History" tab in ParentVue. It clearly tells you if the course earned high school credits or not.

Colleges can slice and dice courses anyway they want but they are certainly not looking down at a 4 earned in a FL AP.

It you just explained the key. Colleges want to see you maxed out the most rigorous courses offered. Your child did that! Ergo no problem. Unfortunately (?) where we live it’s quite possible to have five or more years with tacke-on honors, APs and SAT II Language tests. If they don’t offer more, your child can’t take those vmclasses unless they can dual enroll at a community college or nearby public university that will take non-degree students. The new

[Anonymous]

Sorry for typos above. I’m a passenger in a car trying to type on phone.