What is the light at the end of the tunnel with a bad sleeper?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine was very similar, except she also couldn't fall asleep with anyone in the room, so there was no rocking or lying down with her until she fell asleep, either. She just had to literally drop with exhaustion, even if it meant cheerfully talking to herself for three hours. Once she was asleep she rarely woke up unless she was sick, but it was nearly always a fight to get there. I've definitely heard that "but I CAN'T close my eyes!!!" wail about a million times in the last 12 years! And yes, we also had an outside lock on the door for a while, although when we used it we did at least sit in the hall until she was in bed and quiet.

As she got into elementary school, being able to read in bed for a good long while did help her settle down, so she'd at least be relaxed while she was lying in bed trying to sleep. We set a routine and stuck to it, and were firm about "it's OK if you can't fall asleep, but you have to stay in bed."

Lots of exercise earlier in the day did seem to help a bit, although sometimes it would add tired/jumpy/achy legs to the mix. A large microwave heat pillow (one of those filled with rice or grains) sometimes helped to soothe the aches, and it also added a little comforting weight and helped keep her from jumping around. Sometimes we'd let her lay it across her chest, and that helped keep her still enough to drop off.

A pink salt lamp was a good addition, because the light was warm and soft, not stimulating, bright enough to allay fears but not enough to play by. As she got older we tried to involve her in finding sleep solutions, which I think helped a bit.

I'd say it was probably about 2nd or 3rd grade that she finally made the connection between sleeping at night and how she felt the next day. She eventually realized mom & dad were right, that she did need to sleep, but still just couldn't. But then, knowing she needed to sleep and not being able to created a weird cycle of anxiety. Guided mediations apps would help for a while, then when that stopped working we'd switch to music, then back to meditation. It really helped her to have something to focus on as she was trying to sleep.

She's in middle school now, and knows she needs her sleep, and does her best to make it happen. She's created a space she finds relaxing and a routine that she tries to stick to, and we've worked out a couple of fallback alternatives to lying in bed fretting all night when she has an extra-hard time. She'll sometimes take a dose of melatonin on a bad night, or to reset after a weekend of staying up/sleeping later.

TL/DR: Our similarly crappy sleeper still isn't a great sleeper, but she's stopped fighting us and is really trying find ways to do better.

At 5, you may have a few more years before the penny drops and she stops fighting you (even if she's still fighting sleep, intentionally or not), but you might at least be able to start working on the shift toward an "us vs the problem" mindset.

Mine is the same way. Since she was about a year old, she couldn't have anyone in the room with her. Makes traveling and vacations very difficult.

This is helpful and sounds a lot like her so I suspect our trajectory will be similar. I don't think she's trying to be difficult, I think she genuinely struggles to fall asleep. She also talks to herself for upwards of an hour before finally falling asleep.

Thank you!

Why are you thanking the PP? Her DD still struggles years on in. Are you giving up on finding a way for your DC to regularly fall asleep at night?

Honestly, yes. I think this is her personality. I am also a 'bad' sleeper and my mom says I was exactly this way growing up. I will continue to search for solutions, similar to PP. She mentioned weighted blankets, meditation apps, etc. But five years in, after trying every 'trick' (although fluoride is a new one so I might research that more), I have come to terms with the fact that she just really struggles to fall asleep. I'm fairly skeptical that will change. If you re-read my OP I was asking for experiences and telling me when and how this ends, not advice, because I have asked for advice before and tried a million tricks before. I am pretty close to acceptance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine was very similar, except she also couldn't fall asleep with anyone in the room, so there was no rocking or lying down with her until she fell asleep, either. She just had to literally drop with exhaustion, even if it meant cheerfully talking to herself for three hours. Once she was asleep she rarely woke up unless she was sick, but it was nearly always a fight to get there. I've definitely heard that "but I CAN'T close my eyes!!!" wail about a million times in the last 12 years! And yes, we also had an outside lock on the door for a while, although when we used it we did at least sit in the hall until she was in bed and quiet.

As she got into elementary school, being able to read in bed for a good long while did help her settle down, so she'd at least be relaxed while she was lying in bed trying to sleep. We set a routine and stuck to it, and were firm about "it's OK if you can't fall asleep, but you have to stay in bed."

Lots of exercise earlier in the day did seem to help a bit, although sometimes it would add tired/jumpy/achy legs to the mix. A large microwave heat pillow (one of those filled with rice or grains) sometimes helped to soothe the aches, and it also added a little comforting weight and helped keep her from jumping around. Sometimes we'd let her lay it across her chest, and that helped keep her still enough to drop off.

A pink salt lamp was a good addition, because the light was warm and soft, not stimulating, bright enough to allay fears but not enough to play by. As she got older we tried to involve her in finding sleep solutions, which I think helped a bit.

I'd say it was probably about 2nd or 3rd grade that she finally made the connection between sleeping at night and how she felt the next day. She eventually realized mom & dad were right, that she did need to sleep, but still just couldn't. But then, knowing she needed to sleep and not being able to created a weird cycle of anxiety. Guided mediations apps would help for a while, then when that stopped working we'd switch to music, then back to meditation. It really helped her to have something to focus on as she was trying to sleep.

She's in middle school now, and knows she needs her sleep, and does her best to make it happen. She's created a space she finds relaxing and a routine that she tries to stick to, and we've worked out a couple of fallback alternatives to lying in bed fretting all night when she has an extra-hard time. She'll sometimes take a dose of melatonin on a bad night, or to reset after a weekend of staying up/sleeping later.

TL/DR: Our similarly crappy sleeper still isn't a great sleeper, but she's stopped fighting us and is really trying find ways to do better.

At 5, you may have a few more years before the penny drops and she stops fighting you (even if she's still fighting sleep, intentionally or not), but you might at least be able to start working on the shift toward an "us vs the problem" mindset.

Mine is the same way. Since she was about a year old, she couldn't have anyone in the room with her. Makes traveling and vacations very difficult.

This is helpful and sounds a lot like her so I suspect our trajectory will be similar. I don't think she's trying to be difficult, I think she genuinely struggles to fall asleep. She also talks to herself for upwards of an hour before finally falling asleep.

Thank you!

PP here, and I'm curious: did yours also have to cry herself to sleep as an infant? I think for ours, the need to settle herself by crying eventually because the need to settle herself by talking. But even my mom finally had to admit there was no rocking that kid to sleep, and stopped harping on me about letting her cry in the crib.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine was very similar, except she also couldn't fall asleep with anyone in the room, so there was no rocking or lying down with her until she fell asleep, either. She just had to literally drop with exhaustion, even if it meant cheerfully talking to herself for three hours. Once she was asleep she rarely woke up unless she was sick, but it was nearly always a fight to get there. I've definitely heard that "but I CAN'T close my eyes!!!" wail about a million times in the last 12 years! And yes, we also had an outside lock on the door for a while, although when we used it we did at least sit in the hall until she was in bed and quiet.

As she got into elementary school, being able to read in bed for a good long while did help her settle down, so she'd at least be relaxed while she was lying in bed trying to sleep. We set a routine and stuck to it, and were firm about "it's OK if you can't fall asleep, but you have to stay in bed."

Lots of exercise earlier in the day did seem to help a bit, although sometimes it would add tired/jumpy/achy legs to the mix. A large microwave heat pillow (one of those filled with rice or grains) sometimes helped to soothe the aches, and it also added a little comforting weight and helped keep her from jumping around. Sometimes we'd let her lay it across her chest, and that helped keep her still enough to drop off.

A pink salt lamp was a good addition, because the light was warm and soft, not stimulating, bright enough to allay fears but not enough to play by. As she got older we tried to involve her in finding sleep solutions, which I think helped a bit.

I'd say it was probably about 2nd or 3rd grade that she finally made the connection between sleeping at night and how she felt the next day. She eventually realized mom & dad were right, that she did need to sleep, but still just couldn't. But then, knowing she needed to sleep and not being able to created a weird cycle of anxiety. Guided mediations apps would help for a while, then when that stopped working we'd switch to music, then back to meditation. It really helped her to have something to focus on as she was trying to sleep.

She's in middle school now, and knows she needs her sleep, and does her best to make it happen. She's created a space she finds relaxing and a routine that she tries to stick to, and we've worked out a couple of fallback alternatives to lying in bed fretting all night when she has an extra-hard time. She'll sometimes take a dose of melatonin on a bad night, or to reset after a weekend of staying up/sleeping later.

TL/DR: Our similarly crappy sleeper still isn't a great sleeper, but she's stopped fighting us and is really trying find ways to do better.

At 5, you may have a few more years before the penny drops and she stops fighting you (even if she's still fighting sleep, intentionally or not), but you might at least be able to start working on the shift toward an "us vs the problem" mindset.

Mine is the same way. Since she was about a year old, she couldn't have anyone in the room with her. Makes traveling and vacations very difficult.

This is helpful and sounds a lot like her so I suspect our trajectory will be similar. I don't think she's trying to be difficult, I think she genuinely struggles to fall asleep. She also talks to herself for upwards of an hour before finally falling asleep.

Thank you!

Why are you thanking the PP? Her DD still struggles years on in. Are you giving up on finding a way for your DC to regularly fall asleep at night?

Do YOU have a magical solution that works for every kid?

[Anonymous]

Try the fluoride. It's simple and risk-free. No one's personality keeps them awake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Try the fluoride. It's simple and risk-free. No one's personality keeps them awake.

OP here and I literally can't find a single thing online about this. Are these actually multiple posters recommending this, or one person recommending it repeatedly? Do you have any sources or evidence?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try the fluoride. It's simple and risk-free. No one's personality keeps them awake.

OP here and I literally can't find a single thing online about this. Are these actually multiple posters recommending this, or one person recommending it repeatedly? Do you have any sources or evidence?

It's one person who is either part of the pro-cavity lobby or, I'm guessing, is someone who also did not vaccinate her kids.

[Anonymous]

I didn't read this whole thread but wanted to say that at age 5 we also thought "WTF?!?! Shouldn't this be over by now!?!"

And by age 6 or 6.5, it was finally over. DC sleeps 11+ hours (on the high end for her age!) and rarely wakes us. We kiss her good night and she lays quietly in bed until she falls asleep. If she has to pee in the night, she does it on her own (we put a night light in the bathroom and told her she doesn't have to flush at night because it scares her).

Maybe once every 6 weeks she has a nightmare and calls for us, but I'm happy to give her a middle-of-the-night snuggle on those occasions.

Hang in there!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cut all fluoride out of her diet. Do it for just one or two or three days. You should see an improvement in her sleep right away. If you're not willing to do that, give her calcium chews before every meal and also try to make sure she's not drinking fluoridated water.

Even if you think it's impossible this will help, just try it. I promise you it will, and you will have lost nothing, and risked nothing. One of my kids was like this. It was a miracle when we discovered the connection to fluoride, which was in everything, including his bottled water.

What is fluoride even in? We use fluoride free toothpaste still (probably should start her on 'real' toothpaste but my other two are younger and I just use the same kids stuff for all of them) and most of her water is just filtered out of our fridge. Does that have fluoride in it?

Yes, it's very difficult to filter out fluoride -- the fridge filter won't do it. Try getting distilled water for a day or two (and make sure it doesn't have fluoride added to it). It's in juices, soups, basically anything processed. The good news is that once you see a difference, you'll be super-motivated to find it and remove it from everything.

This sounds extremely woo-woo to me. Is there any actual science behind it?

[Anonymous]

I'd check in with her pediatrician--and think to yourself if she has any signs of ADHD. Poor sleep and ADHD often go together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cut all fluoride out of her diet. Do it for just one or two or three days. You should see an improvement in her sleep right away. If you're not willing to do that, give her calcium chews before every meal and also try to make sure she's not drinking fluoridated water.

Even if you think it's impossible this will help, just try it. I promise you it will, and you will have lost nothing, and risked nothing. One of my kids was like this. It was a miracle when we discovered the connection to fluoride, which was in everything, including his bottled water.

What is fluoride even in? We use fluoride free toothpaste still (probably should start her on 'real' toothpaste but my other two are younger and I just use the same kids stuff for all of them) and most of her water is just filtered out of our fridge. Does that have fluoride in it?

Yes, it's very difficult to filter out fluoride -- the fridge filter won't do it. Try getting distilled water for a day or two (and make sure it doesn't have fluoride added to it). It's in juices, soups, basically anything processed. The good news is that once you see a difference, you'll be super-motivated to find it and remove it from everything.

This sounds extremely woo-woo to me. Is there any actual science behind it?

Yes, it is extremely woo-woo. I'm the fluoride poster (only one on this thread). There is no science behind it. I found this out by accident. One of my kids was a terrible sleeper, then finally started sleeping soundly, thank God, but started having trouble again right when we introduced fluoridated toothpaste. I cut out all fluoride and he started sleeping well again. Then again had trouble sleeping and found out it was because his babysitter gave him bottled water with added fluoride. Cut that out and again he slept like a champ.

I don't drink fluoride now either. I suffered from insomnia my entire life until I cut fluoride out. Now I fall asleep easily and sleep so deeply -- unless I drink something with fluoride in it.

It also affects my skin. I had super dry skin my entire life but now hardly ever need to use lotion.

Obviously this is not the case with everyone, since not everyone has trouble sleeping, but of the people who do -- it could be the fluoride. Just like it is with us.

[Anonymous]

I'm a new poster and was curious about the fluorid thing so I googled fluoride and sleep and a few hits came up including this study which shows possible links between fluoride and sleep disruption in US adolescents:

https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-019-0546-7

"The pineal gland is a small pea-shaped gland located between the two cerebral hemispheres and outside of the blood-brain barrier. It is comprised of both soft tissue and hydroxyapatite crystals. Its primary function is to synthesize melatonin, an antioxidant that plays an essential role in maintenance of normal sleep patterns [12]. Fluoride accumulation in pineal gland hydroxyapatite is present in higher concentrations than in any other part of the body, including bones and teeth [9, 10]. In 2006, a National Research Council report concluded that fluoride is likely to affect pineal gland function and cause decreased melatonin production which could contribute to a variety of effects in humans [13]. However, to our knowledge, no published studies have examined effects of fluoride exposure on melatonin production or sleep regulation in either humans or animals.

"Conclusion: Fluoride exposure may contribute to changes in sleep cycle regulation and sleep behaviors among older adolescents in the US. Additional prospective studies are warranted to examine the effects of fluoride on sleep patterns and determine critical windows of vulnerability for potential effects."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a new poster and was curious about the fluorid thing so I googled fluoride and sleep and a few hits came up including this study which shows possible links between fluoride and sleep disruption in US adolescents:

https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-019-0546-7

"The pineal gland is a small pea-shaped gland located between the two cerebral hemispheres and outside of the blood-brain barrier. It is comprised of both soft tissue and hydroxyapatite crystals. Its primary function is to synthesize melatonin, an antioxidant that plays an essential role in maintenance of normal sleep patterns [12]. Fluoride accumulation in pineal gland hydroxyapatite is present in higher concentrations than in any other part of the body, including bones and teeth [9, 10]. In 2006, a National Research Council report concluded that fluoride is likely to affect pineal gland function and cause decreased melatonin production which could contribute to a variety of effects in humans [13]. However, to our knowledge, no published studies have examined effects of fluoride exposure on melatonin production or sleep regulation in either humans or animals.

"Conclusion: Fluoride exposure may contribute to changes in sleep cycle regulation and sleep behaviors among older adolescents in the US. Additional prospective studies are warranted to examine the effects of fluoride on sleep patterns and determine critical windows of vulnerability for potential effects."

There you go. Thank you, PP. And BTW yes my kids are vaccinated and no I am not "pro-cavity."

-- signed,

Accidentally fluoride-free sound sleeper

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just give her melatonin.

This is what finally worked for us, around age 5. After years of trying everything, working with our pediatrician, waiting for her to "grow out of it," etc. Bottom line, without melatonin it is midnight before she will fall asleep. We spent years having bedtime battles every single night. It was damaging to my mental health. It was damaging to my marriage. And it certainly wasn't helping my child. Everyone is so much happier with the melatonin in our routine.

[Anonymous]

Play books on audible on a speaker in her room. Let her find some titles she likes. Maybe Junie B Jones?

[Anonymous]

My now 13 year old was a terrible sleeper. Didn’t sleep through the night once until 2, couldn’t fall asleep alone, refused to nap after 2, bedtime temper tantrum thrower, could cry for hours without crying himself to sleep. Things began to get better at about 6 or 7 with bed time - he stopped fighting it, and the routine got more peaceful, even if it was long. In 5th grade he developed insomnia and we had to do CBT to address it. By that time he was taking himself to bed at bedtime because he wanted to sleep, and the crying came because he couldn’t fall asleep and he’d panic. CBT helped. Now, at 13, he goes to bed at 9:20 every night and sleeps like a log till 6:30. When he occasionally has insomnia he has me help him with his CBT routine, but that is quite rare now.