My ex instructs our daughter to lie to me and hide things that have happened

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry this seems so common, but glad I'm not alone. My ex tells my son to keep secrets and lie to me, everything from insignificant things to very significant occurances. The most recent telling my son not to tell me that he and his wife were going on vacation M-F. (I found out through her ex) He's supposed to pick him up on Tues. and I'm sure he's waiting till tues. afternoon to send me a text telling me to go pick up our son. Which of course I'd do at a drop of a hat. My problem with this is that he is teaching our son to lie and it creates anxiety for him. Not only does he know he's lying, he's also unsure of who's picking him up! Long story short, when I asked my son if his Dad was picking him up from school or am I. He said, I don't know, my Dad? I ended up sending him to his room for lying and made it clear that was why he was in trouble, not for anything else. I know he's being manipulated by his Dad and probably just doing this as a coping mechanism. I don't want to send him the message that it's ok to be dishonest but then again, I know he's trying to just cope.?

I think you are further placing your son in the middle. We have found the best way to cope with these lies is to NOT put DD in the middle as much as possible.

[Anonymous]

12:59 I am sorry but this is really making a bad situation worse. Please do everything possible not to involve your son when your ex doesn't handle things appropriately. You should have let this play out and dealt with his father when he got back. He was obeying his father but he got punished for that. You could have said spared him the anxiety and told him preemptively that you're planning to pick him up on Tuesday and not gotten into the back story with him. I've got a difficult ex, I make mistakes but I hate when they drag us down to their level. That's what happened here and your son paid the price.

[Anonymous]

Sorry I disagree with 2 PPs. My children also began to lie for their father. They got punished when they told a lie that I found out about. They know that they will get punished whenever they tell a lie in any situation (w/ Dad or other) and whatever is going on will only be worse if they lie about it to me. They also know that I can differentiate between Dad's actions and theirs. They will now tell me the truth about what happens with Dad because they know 1) I will deal directly with Dad about it (not make them carry water back to him), 2) I will not be mad at Dad in front of them or to them about what really happened, and 3) they will be in way more trouble with me if they lie.

Living life between two parents is difficult enough without also having to live in a web of lies and secrecy. Teaching kids to tell the truth and deal with consequences in the open is much better, IMO.

As a result of this my kids and I have a great relationship; they know they can tell me anything and I won't get mad (even though I might make it clear that I disapprove) and that I will help them figure out a healthy way to deal with the problem.

[Anonymous]

PP Did you read the anecdote? Her son did not lie, he said, "I don't know, my dad?" He made clear he was not certain. For all we know he was fantasizing his dad would be back because he knew he was in a bind. He's six for crying out loud. He'd been put in a terrible position by his father and by his mother -- who knew the answer to the question she was asking! Shame on her for asking the question! Really here the child was not offering information, mom was seeking it and she already knew that the husband was playing a fast one on her. Why put the child in the middle?

I do agree that we should teach our children not to lie. My son lied to protect his father last fall and I punished him. However if I suspected his father was lying to me I would not try to confirm as much through my son. It doesn't sound like that's your style either.

[Anonymous]

PP again. P.S. My son is older than six, old enough not to lie!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry I disagree with 2 PPs. My children also began to lie for their father. They got punished when they told a lie that I found out about. They know that they will get punished whenever they tell a lie in any situation (w/ Dad or other) and whatever is going on will only be worse if they lie about it to me. They also know that I can differentiate between Dad's actions and theirs. They will now tell me the truth about what happens with Dad because they know 1) I will deal directly with Dad about it (not make them carry water back to him), 2) I will not be mad at Dad in front of them or to them about what really happened, and 3) they will be in way more trouble with me if they lie.

Living life between two parents is difficult enough without also having to live in a web of lies and secrecy. Teaching kids to tell the truth and deal with consequences in the open is much better, IMO.

As a result of this my kids and I have a great relationship; they know they can tell me anything and I won't get mad (even though I might make it clear that I disapprove) and that I will help them figure out a healthy way to deal with the problem.

13:27 here. Sorry I disagree with you. Your ex sounds like a jerk. But you are making your kids responsible for him. Divorce is hard enough. If these are not truly life threatening situations, just don't involve yourself in asking questions about dad that would result in them having to choose to lie. We dealt with this with my DD and this was on the advice of our psychologist. Once we adopted this approach, you could just see how much less stressed she was. Stop putting your kids in the middle.

[Anonymous]

22:42 Actually I don't think she's putting them in the middle, she's just alerting them that she's not going to tolerate lies from them about what goes on at dad's. We don't have examples. I agree it's dicey but I think it's healthy for a parent to tell children that lying is unacceptable. What's the alternative? The kids would eventually realize she knew they were lying. That's much worse to me than putting your foot done and saying lies prohibited.

[Anonymous]

12:13 here. One reason I will not tolerate lies or secrecy is that I have seen the effect of that in my ex-husband's family of origin. It is a family with a long history of addiction and mental illness and chooses to deal with this by living with the "elephant in the room" and pretending it's not there and keeping problems secret. The damage this secretive, denial-based life has done to individual family members and the family as a whole is indescribable and crippling.

I will not allow my kids to go down that path. Inculcating honesty at a young age is one critical key I see to avoiding that. Because of our family history, my kids are at high risk for developing mental illness or addiction. One of the main hopes I have of helping them to avoid falling victim to these problems or helping them into and through treatment is by laying a foundation of honesty and open communication. One must discuss uncomfortable situations. I don't believe that you get open communication when you pretend that you don't know that a lie is going on. I agree with 8:12 that it is even more damaging when your kids know that you know there is a lie and you ignore it.

My kids are 9 and 6 and highly verbal so they are well-capable of understanding what a lie is. We are also able to talk about how and why it is wrong and how to handle it. I am not making my kids responsible for him. They are responsible only for their own choices -- which is solely about how they choose to handle it when someone else is lying. If they repeat/support the lie knowing that it is a lie, that is wrong. I never am angry at them (or angry at all) when we discuss the lies that Daddy or they have told. They never get punished when he lies; they only get a consequence when they lie (about anything - not just Dad).

Due to the divorce, I am forced to make my kids more responsible than they otherwise might be at this age. That sucks. This is not just about lying, but a whole variety of things. For example, my ex is not good about buckling the kids into carseats, so I had to teach my kids how to do this themselves at an early age, and that they had to speak up to Dad (or anyone) if he was doing it wrong or forgetting.

Everyone's family situation is different. So, while I appreciate that your consultation with a psychologist about your particular situation led you to adopt a particular practice, that doesn't mean that what you do is right for everyone. I am just expressing my view of why it might be necessary to deal with lying in an open way, instead of by ignoring it or pretending it's not happening.

[Anonymous]

Op I haven't read all the replies. But what I would do:

If you don't believe your ex is seriously endangering your child, I would stop asking her questions about where she goes, what she does, who picks her up, when it's Dad's turn. You are well intentioned but you are putting your child in the middle. She can't win. She wants to please her daddy and be a good girl and do what she's told. Even though a part of her knows his behavior is inappropriate in asking her to lie. But if she says anything to you and you get angry, then you confront daddy, then she probably gets flak from him at a later time for causing him trouble.

You need to shut down this circle of actions and consequences. Tell your daughter that you understand how hard it must be for her. You won't be asking questions about daddy anymore. She doesn't have to lie to you. You are always there for her, to hear anything SHE may need to tell you. But you won't press her for information about daddy anymore. In return, you would like her to please share things with you about her day that do NOT involve daddy.

Basically you need to re-establish a feeling of safety to talk for your child.

Unless you are willing to go to court to fight your ex over these issues, you cannot control what your ex does or what he tells your daughter to say. Unless he is actually endangering her, he can do what he wants with her on his own time. So you are going to have to let it go. for your child's sake.

[Anonymous]

11:24 I so so so disagree! The child is distressed. Moving between two homes is bad enough. A parent needs to be able to show concern about what their child is doing when they are with the other parent. Are you suggesting avoidance, not asking one question out of love, like what did you do yesterday? At a young age, almost everything is going to involve daddy. Do you know how unnatural that is for the child, never mind burdensome?

OP, I am not sure what to advise, the ideal would be to get your ex to work with you on stopping the lying. In the meantime, maybe avoid direct questions, and say things like, I hope you had a nice time this weekend with Dad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

13:27 here. Sorry I disagree with you. Your ex sounds like a jerk. But you are making your kids responsible for him. Divorce is hard enough. If these are not truly life threatening situations, just don't involve yourself in asking questions about dad that would result in them having to choose to lie. We dealt with this with my DD and this was on the advice of our psychologist. Once we adopted this approach, you could just see how much less stressed she was. Stop putting your kids in the middle.

11:24 here. I stand by what I said. I agree with this poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op I haven't read all the replies. But what I would do:

If you don't believe your ex is seriously endangering your child, I would stop asking her questions about where she goes, what she does, who picks her up, when it's Dad's turn. You are well intentioned but you are putting your child in the middle. She can't win. She wants to please her daddy and be a good girl and do what she's told. Even though a part of her knows his behavior is inappropriate in asking her to lie. But if she says anything to you and you get angry, then you confront daddy, then she probably gets flak from him at a later time for causing him trouble.

You need to shut down this circle of actions and consequences. Tell your daughter that you understand how hard it must be for her. You won't be asking questions about daddy anymore. She doesn't have to lie to you. You are always there for her, to hear anything SHE may need to tell you. But you won't press her for information about daddy anymore. In return, you would like her to please share things with you about her day that do NOT involve daddy.

Basically you need to re-establish a feeling of safety to talk for your child.

Unless you are willing to go to court to fight your ex over these issues, you cannot control what your ex does or what he tells your daughter to say. Unless he is actually endangering her, he can do what he wants with her on his own time. So you are going to have to let it go. for your child's sake.

Well put. This is 13:27 and you communicated better than I did. PP, while I know how you feel, you will NOT win this. Your child will lose. DD tells us a lot now voluntarily b/c she wants to and knows we will listen without jumping on it. And even if you were willing to go to court over this, you cannot control people and what they say. Sure it can be put in an order, but its not something you can enforce day to day.

We teach DD about truth, consequences of lying, etc, but never as it relates to other parent. While its an accurate example, its not an effective one. Its not a war you'll win if you focus on this battle.

Best you can do is just be neutral. Let your child know they have to keep no secrets of anything at your house. Acknowledge that they feel stress from secrets at other house. But stop putting them in the middle.

[Anonymous]

You cannot control what people say but the legal premise of joint custody is predicated on cooperative parenting. OP could invest in a letter from her lawyer to his lawyer with a recommendation that they flesh out their divorce agreement with a parenting plan, one that has consequences for things like lying. They could work with a parent coordinator. I'd consider take this approach, as much as I hate paying for a lawyer. It documents that you think this is not in the best interest of the child. It shows you are willing to work with him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You cannot control what people say but the legal premise of joint custody is predicated on cooperative parenting. OP could invest in a letter from her lawyer to his lawyer with a recommendation that they flesh out their divorce agreement with a parenting plan, one that has consequences for things like lying. They could work with a parent coordinator. I'd consider take this approach, as much as I hate paying for a lawyer. It documents that you think this is not in the best interest of the child. It shows you are willing to work with him.

But how are you going to enforce the agreement? How are you going to know when dad is lying or hiding things? Only by pumping the child for info? Then you are back at the heart of the problem: The child is in the middle. That is an absolutely untenable place for the child to be.

[Anonymous]

10:10 At the very least OP should get a letter out, to document this. The only possible solution is getting him to see how bad this is. OF COURSE the idea would not to be pumping the child. But children talk. If it becomes clear one parent is lying, the other parent calls the parent coordinator and they schedule a meeting. Every lie is putting the child in the middle. What do you suggest, doing nothing?