CES admissions - 3rd grade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is it documented kids need to be in 99th percentile on MAP? I read it here all the time. Are there any publicly available documents on this? Also, any info on CogAT score needed? Thanks!

Not documented - anecdotal data gathered from many, many admitted students. However, you can work out the numbers pretty easily. Those MAP percentiles are national and MCPS students perform way above the national norm. There are ~12,000 students per grade level, just 99% of MCPS would be 1200 students and let's guess twice that number are 99% nationally giving 2400 possible students at 99%ile. That's way more seats than there are (I've lost track - estimating 2 classes of 25 at 10 schools is 500 seats).

The one consistent thing said by MCPS for the CES programs (formerly HGCs) has been that they are for students whose academic and social needs cannot be met at their home school. In other words - they are outliers. If the home school has "enough" students (5? 10? 20?) then the home school should be able to program for them. This happened with a cohort for one of my kids. There were about 10 really strong kids of the caliber that usually ended up at one of the HGCs and parents speculated that the whole group would go. Nope. Just 2 kids instead of the usual 5 or 6. Why? The remaining 8 were all in class together and the teacher developed extended lessons for them.

The top 1% out of 12,000 students/grade isn't 1,200. Even if kids in the county tested at the 99% at quintuple the rate nationally, that's not many more kids at 99% than there are seats at the regional CES programs, assuming 500 seats. So maybe the parents of kids who scored in the 99% but didn't get selected have even more reason to be upset, which is the miracle of the new selection criteria - its ability to cause even more people to be upset with the process.

Top 1% of 12,000 is NOT 1,200. Top 1% of 12,000 shouls be 120. You should ask your child at home to do your math before post any number here.

[Anonymous]

I found out at an info session last night that there is a “student questionnaire” at the end of the CoGAT screener and they ask the kids if they want to go/would like an enriched class or something like that.

[Anonymous]

Also, remember that CES is a humanities/language arts-based program, not a math one, so MAP-M scores are not part of the criteria. I have a fifth grader in a CES who is doing great and has high 99% MAP-R scores, but whose MAP-M has always been in the 90-95% (high enough to do well in compacted math, but not the 99%-across-the-board student that others mention here).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, remember that CES is a humanities/language arts-based program, not a math one, so MAP-M scores are not part of the criteria. I have a fifth grader in a CES who is doing great and has high 99% MAP-R scores, but whose MAP-M has always been in the 90-95% (high enough to do well in compacted math, but not the 99%-across-the-board student that others mention here).

Are you me? Or at least parenting my kid?

I ALSO have a kid thriving in the CES who has consistently been in the high 99th percentile on MAP-R and who scored a perfect score in 3rd and 4th ELA PARCC tests, but whose MAP-M scores and quantitative section of the Cogat in 3rd were in the low-mid 90s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not to pile on to the negativity, but you might want to search on these forums for "peer cohort" so that you have more of an understanding of MCPS's official position.

But doesn't that apply more to middle school and high school magnets? If a CES draws from all wealthy areas, peer cohort doesn't come into play that much, does it?
Thinking of Chevy Chase CES.

It does, and how. My child didn't get into Chevy Chase CES despite having 99% pretty much across the board. There were multiple kids like DD in her grade, and that's exactly where the 'peer cohort' concept came into play. Now they are all in the same class together, at their home school.

So I'm curious which ES school in your cluster does not have sufficient peer cohort (from which they presumably took kids for CES rather than the kids at your school).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not to pile on to the negativity, but you might want to search on these forums for "peer cohort" so that you have more of an understanding of MCPS's official position.

But doesn't that apply more to middle school and high school magnets? If a CES draws from all wealthy areas, peer cohort doesn't come into play that much, does it?
Thinking of Chevy Chase CES.

It does, and how. My child didn't get into Chevy Chase CES despite having 99% pretty much across the board. There were multiple kids like DD in her grade, and that's exactly where the 'peer cohort' concept came into play. Now they are all in the same class together, at their home school.

So I'm curious which ES school in your cluster does not have sufficient peer cohort (from which they presumably took kids for CES rather than the kids at your school).

I mean which ES in the Chevy Chase CES boundary

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Cogat (screener was used last year - awful)
Map-m (3rd grade, not sure whether they look at fall + winter or just one of those)
Map-r
Grades

MAP-M really? I thought that was used for Compacted Math not CES which was for reading/writing/social studies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, remember that CES is a humanities/language arts-based program, not a math one, so MAP-M scores are not part of the criteria. I have a fifth grader in a CES who is doing great and has high 99% MAP-R scores, but whose MAP-M has always been in the 90-95% (high enough to do well in compacted math, but not the 99%-across-the-board student that others mention here).

Are you me? Or at least parenting my kid?

I ALSO have a kid thriving in the CES who has consistently been in the high 99th percentile on MAP-R and who scored a perfect score in 3rd and 4th ELA PARCC tests, but whose MAP-M scores and quantitative section of the Cogat in 3rd were in the low-mid 90s.

Opposite case for my CES 4th grader DC. He scored 98-99% on grade level for MAP-R since 3rd grade, but his MAP-M always scored at 99% for three graders above. He thrived the CES curriculum. In his CES center, there are about 10 kids similar to his case, where they got even more challenge math questions from the teacher. I'm not sure about the reading enrichment the other way around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cogat (screener was used last year - awful)
Map-m (3rd grade, not sure whether they look at fall + winter or just one of those)
Map-r
Grades

MAP-M really? I thought that was used for Compacted Math not CES which was for reading/writing/social studies.

From my anecdotal data, that's not true. If you kid scored particularly high for either MAP-M or MAP-R, they tend to be selected even the other subject might be just so so (still high 90s percent-wise of course).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You will quickly learn that none of this transparent. There are not enough spots for qualified students.

+1

MCPS even admits that much. All the kids on the Wait List are equally qualified. They choose off of the await List based on pure lottery.

That basically means that ALL the Wait List kids could benefit from a CES, there just are not enough seats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cogat (screener was used last year - awful)
Map-m (3rd grade, not sure whether they look at fall + winter or just one of those)
Map-r
Grades

MAP-M really? I thought that was used for Compacted Math not CES which was for reading/writing/social studies.

From my anecdotal data, that's not true. If you kid scored particularly high for either MAP-M or MAP-R, they tend to be selected even the other subject might be just so so (still high 90s percent-wise of course).

I doubt that a kid with a 99% MAP-M 2 grades up but a 95% MAP-R would be selected for a program that is highly humanities focus.

[Anonymous]

The county says it doesn't use MAP-M for this. The criteria has been completely covered in fine detail. The method is transparent and MAP-M is for compacted math not the humanities CES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not to pile on to the negativity, but you might want to search on these forums for "peer cohort" so that you have more of an understanding of MCPS's official position.

But doesn't that apply more to middle school and high school magnets? If a CES draws from all wealthy areas, peer cohort doesn't come into play that much, does it?
Thinking of Chevy Chase CES.

It does, and how. My child didn't get into Chevy Chase CES despite having 99% pretty much across the board. There were multiple kids like DD in her grade, and that's exactly where the 'peer cohort' concept came into play. Now they are all in the same class together, at their home school.

So I'm curious which ES school in your cluster does not have sufficient peer cohort (from which they presumably took kids for CES rather than the kids at your school).

I mean which ES in the Chevy Chase CES boundary

Yeah, I don't think the peer cohort thing matters much for CCCES. My impression was that they invited 4-6 kids from every ES in the cluster, so no ES was favored or disfavored. Of course, that doesn't mean that every kid that was qualified got an invite. There are probably 10 kids with 99% across the board at each of these schools, I think. (Also, they are all big, overpopulated schools.) You can pull the PARCC scores for each of these schools and see how many kids got 5's -- PARCC stinks, but I bet it would show that each of these schools has a bunch of high scorers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The county says it doesn't use MAP-M for this. The criteria has been completely covered in fine detail. The method is transparent and MAP-M is for compacted math not the humanities CES.

Can you link? It was my understanding from the last reading that both MAP scores are used. This would be new to me.

[Anonymous]

99th% scores don't always get you in. I'm not sure how they weigh grades. DS was rejected with 99% in all test areas, A/Bs on report cards. I know one kid in his school around 96th% testing who got in.