Subject Test Scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Right. When my ex was applying to Econ PhD programs, no one would look at the application unless you got an 800 on the GRE Math. All the people applying to Econ and math grad programs screwed up the percentiles on that test by getting perfect scores.

Similar situation here.

This. If you want engineering, math or a math heavy STEM subject at a school with <10% admit rate, here is what a 790 math says: your kid is not in the top 25% in math. In this case, more than any other subject test, there is a huge difference between 790 and 800. That is not a reason to accept your kid, for sure. It may be a reason to turn him down. Even if it is a self selecting group, it’s not that self selecting. Top 50 school— sure. Send it. Humanities major? Probably fine. But an Ivy, Chicago, Cal Tech, MIT etc? If 10,000 kids too the test, there are more than 2000 800s out there. It’s worth the time this summer to work through a practice book and aim for the 800 in August or October.

BTDT at TJ, where all the math geeks live. Rule of thumb: Math II, only send an 800.

[Anonymous]

Math 2 is fine. Send it in.
Retake Chem or try a different science subject if he is applying for math. I’m guessing you need two science subject tests for math.
Is he sure he wants to major in math? Maybe he shouldn’t say that given that he didn’t get an 800 in math 2. Did he get a 5 in Calc BC? Has he done any math beyond Calc BC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right. When my ex was applying to Econ PhD programs, no one would look at the application unless you got an 800 on the GRE Math. All the people applying to Econ and math grad programs screwed up the percentiles on that test by getting perfect scores.

Similar situation here.

This. If you want engineering, math or a math heavy STEM subject at a school with <10% admit rate, here is what a 790 math says: your kid is not in the top 25% in math. In this case, more than any other subject test, there is a huge difference between 790 and 800. That is not a reason to accept your kid, for sure. It may be a reason to turn him down. Even if it is a self selecting group, it’s not that self selecting. Top 50 school— sure. Send it. Humanities major? Probably fine. But an Ivy, Chicago, Cal Tech, MIT etc? If 10,000 kids too the test, there are more than 2000 800s out there. It’s worth the time this summer to work through a practice book and aim for the 800 in August or October.

BTDT at TJ, where all the math geeks live. Rule of thumb: Math II, only send an 800.

OP here. He is not applying to ivies...but his dream school is a top 20 (obviously closer to 20). Admit rate less than 20% but more than 15%. Is 790 good enough for that type of school? He does not need to declare a major when applying. Not applying for engineering. He will probably retake Chemistry.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't prep for the tests at the expense of studying/making good grades and working on his essays, but I would keep in mind that these are highly preppable tests. They measure both knowledge and the student's ability to take this type of test. It might be worth another shot if your student has time to sit down and really apply himself to studying and taking timed practice tests.

There is an August 25th test date for which the regular registration deadline is July 27 and the late registration deadlines are Aug 7 (mail) and Aug 15 (phone) so plenty of time to register. If he wants to go for it and schedule permitting, that's a little over 6 weeks away, and going for higher scores wouldn't interfere with the new school year. Both Math Level 2 and Chemistry are being offered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right. When my ex was applying to Econ PhD programs, no one would look at the application unless you got an 800 on the GRE Math. All the people applying to Econ and math grad programs screwed up the percentiles on that test by getting perfect scores.

Similar situation here.

This. If you want engineering, math or a math heavy STEM subject at a school with <10% admit rate, here is what a 790 math says: your kid is not in the top 25% in math. In this case, more than any other subject test, there is a huge difference between 790 and 800. That is not a reason to accept your kid, for sure. It may be a reason to turn him down. Even if it is a self selecting group, it’s not that self selecting. Top 50 school— sure. Send it. Humanities major? Probably fine. But an Ivy, Chicago, Cal Tech, MIT etc? If 10,000 kids too the test, there are more than 2000 800s out there. It’s worth the time this summer to work through a practice book and aim for the 800 in August or October.

BTDT at TJ, where all the math geeks live. Rule of thumb: Math II, only send an 800.

OP here. He is not applying to ivies...but his dream school is a top 20 (obviously closer to 20). Admit rate less than 20% but more than 15%. Is 790 good enough for that type of school? He does not need to declare a major when applying. Not applying for engineering. He will probably retake Chemistry.

The 790 is probalby fine.

But before retaking the Chem test, find out if the Top 20/first choice school wants to see results from all tests taken.

If they do, the school will get both scores and you may not want to retake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
There is an August 25th test date for which the regular registration deadline is July 27 and the late registration deadlines are Aug 7 (mail) and Aug 15 (phone) so plenty of time to register. If he wants to go for it and schedule permitting, that's a little over 6 weeks away, and going for higher scores wouldn't interfere with the new school year. Both Math Level 2 and Chemistry are being offered.

note: test center locations for August test are sparse (unless you live in DC).

[Anonymous]

OP: He is FINE!

SAT Subject test takers are highly selective so do not get hung up on the % tile (ie, kids that are good with English/History but not as high on the STEM subjects probably would not take Math II kind of selective). Just FYI my DC got 800 on one of the SAT Subject and that put him at 80th%.

Anything over 700 looks fine ... and honestly, with all the schools requiring SAT/ACT, I don't think improvement in 20-50 points is going to tip the scale one way or another. Had he gotten below 680 it might be a different story. But his scores are fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP: He is FINE!

SAT Subject test takers are highly selective so do not get hung up on the % tile (ie, kids that are good with English/History but not as high on the STEM subjects probably would not take Math II kind of selective). Just FYI my DC got 800 on one of the SAT Subject and that put him at 80th%.

Anything over 700 looks fine ... and honestly, with all the schools requiring SAT/ACT, I don't think improvement in 20-50 points is going to tip the scale one way or another. Had he gotten below 680 it might be a different story. But his scores are fine.

I meant to say making these tests optional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS just got his scores and he got a 790 in math II and 710 in chemistry. He knew he had gotten some of the questions wrong because he had not prepped for those type of questions (he had read those would not be on the test). The 710 concerns me. Is this a bad score? He is applying to a top 20 school and it is his first choice. He doesn't have time to retake it. This particular school doesn't require subject tests but highly recommends them. FWIW, he got a 4 on the AP Chemistry exam and a 35 on the ACT.

Did your son realize there is a wrong answer penalty on the subject tests? He should have skipped questions he didn't know the answer to.

I'd report the math test and not the chemistry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP: He is FINE!

SAT Subject test takers are highly selective so do not get hung up on the % tile (ie, kids that are good with English/History but not as high on the STEM subjects probably would not take Math II kind of selective). Just FYI my DC got 800 on one of the SAT Subject and that put him at 80th%.

Anything over 700 looks fine ... and honestly, with all the schools requiring SAT/ACT, I don't think improvement in 20-50 points is going to tip the scale one way or another. Had he gotten below 680 it might be a different story. But his scores are fine.

OP ignore the people saying you are humblebragging. You have a right to be concerned about the 710. I'm assuming your DS is applying to schools with an expressed interest in the sciences - hence she took Math II and chemistry. I'll tell you my DD's story and you can extrapolate from it what you want. DD wanted aerospace at Princeton so applied SCEA and for the programs EA at Ga Tech and Purdue. Got into[b] the latter EA and other name tech schools for aerospace engineering. Got deferred at Princeton. Valedictorian of class. 4.0++++ GPA. 35 ACT. National awards. We got bum advice about the SAT subject matter tests so DD took Math I and Chemistry. DD also took a college course in chemistry at a community college the summer before and got an A. Also private tutoring for the chemistry subject matter test. If I remember correctly she scored a 730 or 740 on the Math I and the chemistry test. She went back (her own volition) and took the Math II test and chemistry again. We were told by a number of tutors that the chemistry exam covers an enormous quantity of information so even the college level course on chem wouldn't necessarily help with the chem score because the field is so vast. On retake, she was still in the 740s/750s. She did not get into Princeton. Contrary to what others will scream at you, if you have a friend on the faculty who is going to bat for your kid you can find out what the problem is with the application (other than being caucasian from a boring zip code that they don't need) and her problem was the low SAT II scores. And she's not a URM and doesn't play the xylophone. So yes, 710 is a problem if DD is applying to study in the field at an Ivy. I would send in the 790 and not the 710 if you can do that. By the way, schools that say SAT IIs are not required "but highly recommended" means in real language that you are competing against superlative international candidates with 800s on every conceivable test. The only reason they don't "require" them is because to do so discriminates against the less knowledgeable and poorer applicants. But if you are not a URM, lower income and come from a good public or good private, you need to supply them. Some are posting here that schools are moving towards not requiring test scores. That is not a reflection of what is going on in terms of selecting students in the admissions office - they still want to see top scores - what that movement is about is increasing the number of applicants so that the University can reject them, thereby driving down the selectivity scores for reporting to the ranking services.

[Anonymous]

P.S. ^^ If DD had to do it all over again, she would not have applied as an aerospace engineer but as a more soft liberal studies major. It's easier to get in that way and then take hard sciences intros and see if it's a good match.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: He is FINE!

SAT Subject test takers are highly selective so do not get hung up on the % tile (ie, kids that are good with English/History but not as high on the STEM subjects probably would not take Math II kind of selective). Just FYI my DC got 800 on one of the SAT Subject and that put him at 80th%.

Anything over 700 looks fine ... and honestly, with all the schools requiring SAT/ACT, I don't think improvement in 20-50 points is going to tip the scale one way or another. Had he gotten below 680 it might be a different story. But his scores are fine.

OP ignore the people saying you are humblebragging. You have a right to be concerned about the 710. I'm assuming your DS is applying to schools with an expressed interest in the sciences - hence she took Math II and chemistry. I'll tell you my DD's story and you can extrapolate from it what you want. DD wanted aerospace at Princeton so applied SCEA and for the programs EA at Ga Tech and Purdue. Got into[b] the latter EA and other name tech schools for aerospace engineering. Got deferred at Princeton. Valedictorian of class. 4.0++++ GPA. 35 ACT. National awards. We got bum advice about the SAT subject matter tests so DD took Math I and Chemistry. DD also took a college course in chemistry at a community college the summer before and got an A. Also private tutoring for the chemistry subject matter test. If I remember correctly she scored a 730 or 740 on the Math I and the chemistry test. She went back (her own volition) and took the Math II test and chemistry again. We were told by a number of tutors that the chemistry exam covers an enormous quantity of information so even the college level course on chem wouldn't necessarily help with the chem score because the field is so vast. On retake, she was still in the 740s/750s. She did not get into Princeton. Contrary to what others will scream at you, if you have a friend on the faculty who is going to bat for your kid you can find out what the problem is with the application (other than being caucasian from a boring zip code that they don't need) and her problem was the low SAT II scores. And she's not a URM and doesn't play the xylophone. So yes, 710 is a problem if DD is applying to study in the field at an Ivy. I would send in the 790 and not the 710 if you can do that. By the way, schools that say SAT IIs are not required "but highly recommended" means in real language that you are competing against superlative international candidates with 800s on every conceivable test. The only reason they don't "require" them is because to do so discriminates against the less knowledgeable and poorer applicants. But if you are not a URM, lower income and come from a good public or good private, you need to supply them. Some are posting here that schools are moving towards not requiring test scores. That is not a reflection of what is going on in terms of selecting students in the admissions office - they still want to see top scores - what that movement is about is increasing the number of applicants so that the University can reject them, thereby driving down the selectivity scores for reporting to the ranking services.

OP here. Thanks for your perspective. Just to reiterate, DS will be applying to the liberal arts program and will most likely major in something in math related. He is not applying to a school on the level of Princeton, however, it is a selective school (top 20 on US News list). All his other schools are below that...so not interested in uber selective schools. That's why I think the 790 is fine, but not sure about the 710.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[b]s.

OP here. Thanks for your perspective. Just to reiterate, DS will be applying to the liberal arts program and will most likely major in something in math related. He is not applying to a school on the level of Princeton, however, it is a selective school (top 20 on US News list). All his other schools are below that...so not interested in uber selective schools. That's why I think the 790 is fine, but not sure about the 710.

Then why did he take chemistry at all? It doesn't make sense, especially given the AP 4 in that subject.

Math 2 is good for any student who is aiming for an elite school that recommends subject tests. But the second (or third tests) should be in a student's best subject, or one that they intend to pursue in college. It's a chance to show off and prove what you are best at.

[Anonymous]

Just take three in August and send in the best of those three (or the 710) along with the 790. It's three hours out of a Saturday morning plus travel. DC was going to take two last month and then decided to just add History, and that turned out to be DC's best score, so just throw a bunch on the wall and see what sticks.

[Anonymous]

"If you want engineering, math or a math heavy STEM subject at a school with <10% admit rate, here is what a 790 math says: your kid is not in the top 25% in math. In this case, more than any other subject test, there is a huge difference between 790 and 800. That is not a reason to accept your kid, for sure."

Ahh, no. All it suggests to the school is that the student DID NOT PREP for the SATII.

This is what sooooo many people don't get. If the student has a math competition score or some other proof in their application that shows they are in the top fraction of a percent at doing math, like lots of As in TJ math classes, then getting a 790 SATII and a 780 Math SAT are fine. No one cares how well you can do math on your worst day, they want to know how well you can do math on your best day.