Big law, big mistake?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP back.

By fired, I meant pushed out over a couple months. She expects that because I won't make hours, I'll be told to find something else at my one year mark. I'll be given a couple months to make that transition. I will have some time.

I feel like I just started.

I don't understand how I can be feeling great and be told that it's not great. It's confusing.

I was top 10% of my law school class, DOJ honors, and took a class year cut for this job. This is the first time I've failed at anything.

I'll start submitting applications -- to the tiny civil lit firm that reached out to me and others. It's embarrassing and I'm not sure what I'll say if I get an interview. Is this rock bottom?

Consider yourself lucky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't listen to the gossip, but be aware of it. Unless that is the only partner with work to hand out in your practice area.

Do great work (it will get you more work), network within the firm to get more hours and show that you are trying to get more work. Never turn billable work down.

I also doubt that they would only give you a year to ramp up. That's a waste of recruiting money.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rock bottom? Being employed as an associate in a large law firm and having other options is hardly rock bottom, not even for law. Get some perspective.

I had the same thought. If this is the image you're projecting, people are picking up on it and not in a positive way. Emotional IQ is a HUGE part of successful employment. Get some, now.

[Anonymous]

I'll be honest here (after 10 yrs in biglaw) - you started in Dec, you don't have enough work/your hours are low, so you're spending your time on RECRUITING of all things?? Recruiting is complete BS and it does not matter AT ALL what the recruiting babes say about you being a great ambassador or whatever - they're ditzy people who bring in NO MONEY for the firm. The opinions that matter are the ones from those who bring in money -- i.e. billable client facing attorneys. I've known tons of biglaw partners and many (esp top rainmaker) do make snap judgments. So he sees that you've been here for 8 months and sees your hours aren't top of class and instead of seeking work anywhere and everywhere you can -- he sees you going to recruiting functions . . . . No wonder he thinks there's no spot for you, he already knows you're not wanting to kill it on the billing (and he doesn't know if you want it in your heart of hearts bc you aren't showing it to him).

Once these judgements are made in biglaw, they never change. Sure maybe the inevitable won't happen this Dec but rather next summer. But from everything I've ever seen, it WILL happen. So why wait around? If you love biglaw, why not call a recruiter now and try to lateral? It's not like you're a 9th yr with limited option - you're super marketable as a 2nd or 4th yr bc firms are just looking at you as a worker, not as someone they need to promote/not promote to partner in a yr.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest here (after 10 yrs in biglaw) - you started in Dec, you don't have enough work/your hours are low, so you're spending your time on RECRUITING of all things?? Recruiting is complete BS and it does not matter AT ALL what the recruiting babes say about you being a great ambassador or whatever - they're ditzy people who bring in NO MONEY for the firm. The opinions that matter are the ones from those who bring in money -- i.e. billable client facing attorneys. I've known tons of biglaw partners and many (esp top rainmaker) do make snap judgments. So he sees that you've been here for 8 months and sees your hours aren't top of class and instead of seeking work anywhere and everywhere you can -- he sees you going to recruiting functions . . . . No wonder he thinks there's no spot for you, he already knows you're not wanting to kill it on the billing (and he doesn't know if you want it in your heart of hearts bc you aren't showing it to him).

Once these judgements are made in biglaw, they never change. Sure maybe the inevitable won't happen this Dec but rather next summer. But from everything I've ever seen, it WILL happen. So why wait around? If you love biglaw, why not call a recruiter now and try to lateral? It's not like you're a 9th yr with limited option - you're super marketable as a 2nd or 4th yr bc firms are just looking at you as a worker, not as someone they need to promote/not promote to partner in a yr.

And keep in mind that many (not all in DC) biglaw partners have something against gov't attorneys - in his mind you just came to his firm to make $$$ and keep as close to your gov't lifestyle and he's made that his first impression of you - whether true or false - and he has the power to carry it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest here (after 10 yrs in biglaw) - you started in Dec, you don't have enough work/your hours are low, so you're spending your time on RECRUITING of all things?? Recruiting is complete BS and it does not matter AT ALL what the recruiting babes say about you being a great ambassador or whatever - they're ditzy people who bring in NO MONEY for the firm. The opinions that matter are the ones from those who bring in money -- i.e. billable client facing attorneys. I've known tons of biglaw partners and many (esp top rainmaker) do make snap judgments. So he sees that you've been here for 8 months and sees your hours aren't top of class and instead of seeking work anywhere and everywhere you can -- he sees you going to recruiting functions . . . . No wonder he thinks there's no spot for you, he already knows you're not wanting to kill it on the billing (and he doesn't know if you want it in your heart of hearts bc you aren't showing it to him).

Once these judgements are made in biglaw, they never change. Sure maybe the inevitable won't happen this Dec but rather next summer. But from everything I've ever seen, it WILL happen. So why wait around? If you love biglaw, why not call a recruiter now and try to lateral? It's not like you're a 9th yr with limited option - you're super marketable as a 2nd or 4th yr bc firms are just looking at you as a worker, not as someone they need to promote/not promote to partner in a yr.

Op. This makes 100% sense to me. I think your advice is spot on as to what is happening at my firm.

As someone who did zero recruiting at DOJ, no one explained it to me. I was told by recruiting that the partner asked for me and I considered it required Truth be told, I've easily spent 150 hours on recruiting events, summer associate mentoring, interviewing and I'll be short 100 hours even if I have good billable months from now on. I do see that my colleagues don't even interview. They bill. Where was this advice 9 months ago when I was told to attend firm events, go to all the trainings, do pro bono, etc. Why didn't the firm say "don't do anything, just bill"? I thought I was being a super star with all my firm activities.

I'll absolutely refuse to play that role from now on. But lateral after only a year? I can't imagine that another big law firm will let me. Coming from DOJ was not easy, which is why I took the cut.

Plus, I'm happy because I'm doing all these activities. If I was just billing, I'd probably have been miserable this year.

[Anonymous]

Op, you sound happy and positive and you love biglaw! You were just naive. But after your statement that if you'd just billed billed billed, you'd be unhappy-- maybe biglaw is not for you. And that's OK. You obviously shine at and enjoy other parts. So you are not a failure. If you head down and bill and stay in and hate...that could be failure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest here (after 10 yrs in biglaw) - you started in Dec, you don't have enough work/your hours are low, so you're spending your time on RECRUITING of all things?? Recruiting is complete BS and it does not matter AT ALL what the recruiting babes say about you being a great ambassador or whatever - they're ditzy people who bring in NO MONEY for the firm. The opinions that matter are the ones from those who bring in money -- i.e. billable client facing attorneys. I've known tons of biglaw partners and many (esp top rainmaker) do make snap judgments. So he sees that you've been here for 8 months and sees your hours aren't top of class and instead of seeking work anywhere and everywhere you can -- he sees you going to recruiting functions . . . . No wonder he thinks there's no spot for you, he already knows you're not wanting to kill it on the billing (and he doesn't know if you want it in your heart of hearts bc you aren't showing it to him).

Once these judgements are made in biglaw, they never change. Sure maybe the inevitable won't happen this Dec but rather next summer. But from everything I've ever seen, it WILL happen. So why wait around? If you love biglaw, why not call a recruiter now and try to lateral? It's not like you're a 9th yr with limited option - you're super marketable as a 2nd or 4th yr bc firms are just looking at you as a worker, not as someone they need to promote/not promote to partner in a yr.

Op. This makes 100% sense to me. I think your advice is spot on as to what is happening at my firm.

As someone who did zero recruiting at DOJ, no one explained it to me. I was told by recruiting that the partner asked for me and I considered it required Truth be told, I've easily spent 150 hours on recruiting events, summer associate mentoring, interviewing and I'll be short 100 hours even if I have good billable months from now on. I do see that my colleagues don't even interview. They bill. Where was this advice 9 months ago when I was told to attend firm events, go to all the trainings, do pro bono, etc. Why didn't the firm say "don't do anything, just bill"? I thought I was being a super star with all my firm activities.

I'll absolutely refuse to play that role from now on. But lateral after only a year? I can't imagine that another big law firm will let me. Coming from DOJ was not easy, which is why I took the cut.

Plus, I'm happy because I'm doing all these activities. If I was just billing, I'd probably have been miserable this year.

PP that you're quoting - holy shit 150 hours on recruiting?? Yeah that's super excessive and whether you understood it or not, it IS seen as fluff work that is often done by the sorority girl types of associates who don't want to be associates - they want the money but as you say they don't want to bill bill bill - it's much more fun to be able to say "sorry I'm not in the office tomorrow so I can't make that meeting bc I'm committed to going to NYU for a day of interviews." Every firm partner has seen a ton of these (almost always female) associates and they have no patience for it. As the poster above says if working non stop as a junior associate makes you unhappy -- this job isn't for you; doesn't matter if you like the pretty offices and free coffee. I wouldn't be surprised if your teammates are seeing you as the team slacker they always have to cover for. If you like the shiny parts of the job but not sitting in the office until 9 pm, consider a move into recruiting and professional development - esp if you aren't attached to the idea of practicing law - they get the shiny offices and all but they go home at 5 pm and if they're staying late, it's to party at summer associate events.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest here (after 10 yrs in biglaw) - you started in Dec, you don't have enough work/your hours are low, so you're spending your time on RECRUITING of all things?? Recruiting is complete BS and it does not matter AT ALL what the recruiting babes say about you being a great ambassador or whatever - they're ditzy people who bring in NO MONEY for the firm. The opinions that matter are the ones from those who bring in money -- i.e. billable client facing attorneys. I've known tons of biglaw partners and many (esp top rainmaker) do make snap judgments. So he sees that you've been here for 8 months and sees your hours aren't top of class and instead of seeking work anywhere and everywhere you can -- he sees you going to recruiting functions . . . . No wonder he thinks there's no spot for you, he already knows you're not wanting to kill it on the billing (and he doesn't know if you want it in your heart of hearts bc you aren't showing it to him).

Once these judgements are made in biglaw, they never change. Sure maybe the inevitable won't happen this Dec but rather next summer. But from everything I've ever seen, it WILL happen. So why wait around? If you love biglaw, why not call a recruiter now and try to lateral? It's not like you're a 9th yr with limited option - you're super marketable as a 2nd or 4th yr bc firms are just looking at you as a worker, not as someone they need to promote/not promote to partner in a yr.

Op. This makes 100% sense to me. I think your advice is spot on as to what is happening at my firm.

As someone who did zero recruiting at DOJ, no one explained it to me. I was told by recruiting that the partner asked for me and I considered it required Truth be told, I've easily spent 150 hours on recruiting events, summer associate mentoring, interviewing and I'll be short 100 hours even if I have good billable months from now on. I do see that my colleagues don't even interview. They bill. Where was this advice 9 months ago when I was told to attend firm events, go to all the trainings, do pro bono, etc. Why didn't the firm say "don't do anything, just bill"? I thought I was being a super star with all my firm activities.

I'll absolutely refuse to play that role from now on. But lateral after only a year? I can't imagine that another big law firm will let me. Coming from DOJ was not easy, which is why I took the cut.

Plus, I'm happy because I'm doing all these activities. If I was just billing, I'd probably have been miserable this year.

PP that you're quoting - holy shit 150 hours on recruiting?? Yeah that's super excessive and whether you understood it or not, it IS seen as fluff work that is often done by the sorority girl types of associates who don't want to be associates - they want the money but as you say they don't want to bill bill bill - it's much more fun to be able to say "sorry I'm not in the office tomorrow so I can't make that meeting bc I'm committed to going to NYU for a day of interviews." Every firm partner has seen a ton of these (almost always female) associates and they have no patience for it. As the poster above says if working non stop as a junior associate makes you unhappy -- this job isn't for you; doesn't matter if you like the pretty offices and free coffee. I wouldn't be surprised if your teammates are seeing you as the team slacker they always have to cover for. If you like the shiny parts of the job but not sitting in the office until 9 pm, consider a move into recruiting and professional development - esp if you aren't attached to the idea of practicing law - they get the shiny offices and all but they go home at 5 pm and if they're staying late, it's to party at summer associate events.

A really outgoing associate at my firm who wants to do all kinds of recruiting and summer events but does not want to be seen as a recruiting babe and wants to be a legit associate may do 40-50 hrs of recruiting A YEAR and even then not during their 1st yr at the firm when they're trying to make an impression - more like as 4th or 5th yrs when their reputation is rock solid.

[Anonymous]

Were there partners who recruited you and who give you work? Those are the ones you need to be reaching out for more work and advice as to whether they'll protect you until you can get your hours in line with expectations. Partners are very competitive and look to undermine each other. It sounds like one big honcho already has it in for you, likely as a means to assert his dominance over other partners with whom you've worked. He's looking out for his own grunts, who'll have even higher hours if you aren't billing time every now and then.

It's not beyond salvaging if you can get more work and send a different message about your ambitions, but you've been very naive to date. The fact the firm didn't give you full credit for your seniority when you started was a good indication they didn't really think your prior experience was all that valuable to their practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Were there partners who recruited you and who give you work? Those are the ones you need to be reaching out for more work and advice as to whether they'll protect you until you can get your hours in line with expectations. Partners are very competitive and look to undermine each other. It sounds like one big honcho already has it in for you, likely as a means to assert his dominance over other partners with whom you've worked. He's looking out for his own grunts, who'll have even higher hours if you aren't billing time every now and then.

It's not beyond salvaging if you can get more work and send a different message about your ambitions, but you've been very naive to date. The fact the firm didn't give you full credit for your seniority when you started was a good indication they didn't really think your prior experience was all that valuable to their practice.

Are you in DC biglaw (meaning DC HQ or a firm w a big DC presence)? What were you doing at DOJ? Bc I think the prior PP is right -- I haven't seen new associates not get credit for their time at DOJ.

As for beyond salvaging - it's a know your own firm type of issue and OP clearly isn't understanding firm dynamics. In the DC office of my biglaw firm there are 2 huge rainmakers in litigation and if one of them had the preceding opinion, it would be beyond salvaging AND you wouldn't realize it bc the other pansies in the partnership WOULD say the right words to "support" you if you came to them with concern but then at the year end meeting where they discuss associate reviews, they'd sit there quietly and nod along so as not to piss off the rainmakers - bc at the end of the day they are looking out for their own trajectory at the firm, not yours. I say move on. Call a recruiter. Talk to the small firm that reached out to you. Reach out to your DOJ colleagues you've left to see how it is at their firms to see if you can get a few resumes in that way. Don't just sit around hoping it'll get better - these things rarely do.

[Anonymous]

Another senior associate here. OP did you not talk to any of your classmates in big law? Your naivety is stunning and frankly that is probably irritating the rainmaker as much as anything else. The fact that you think things are great and are so unaware of the business culture would make me question your judgment and over all seriousness as an attorney.

[Anonymous]

I believe a bunch of big law lawyers are responding in this thread: too many sanctimonious personal attacks and too little in the way of useful advice going forward. This is what feedback looks like in big law; mostly personal attacks pointing out what you did wrong and very little advice on what hat you should affirmatively do in the future because the latter would actually force your reviewer to take a position on something.

1. If you continue to be slow, max out your pro bono hours to the extent that your firm gives billable credit to pro bono hours. If your firm gives unlimited credit to pro bono hours, don't go over 100 for the fiscal year.

2. Confront the issue head on. Ask this specific partner for work. If you continue to be slow ask to take on non-billable work from him/her, like prepping pitch books, writing articles, etc....

3. (A) Pounce on new partners and partners that lateral in to the firm. You should still have a neutral reputation with those people. (B) Suck it up and go ask the most difficult partners in your practice group for work. They sometimes have a tougher time staffing and there may be hours there for the taking.

4. Does your law school classmate know you came in as a second year? If he/she is a fifth year and beleives you are a fifth year also, your classmate could see you as competition and you should take things he/she says with a grain of salt.

5. Goes without saying, but don't delegate right now to the extent you don't have to. Your lower billable rate sort of helps you here and you can do work that would otherwise be appropriate for juniors/non-legal personnel.

6. Start applying for other jobs. You can claim you wanted to shift the focus of your practice group.

7. Whether you're slow or not, you don't leave early (whatever that means for your practice group).

8. They may be paying you as a second year but they are expecting midlevel quality work. Don't forget that.

[Anonymous]

I forgot an important one

9. Don't ever cut your own hours. As an associate, it is not your job to determine the appropriate amount of hours for a task and those aren't even your hours to cut. If you spend a minute on a task, you bill it. If a partner asks you to cut your hours make him/her do it on the record, through the billing software system. Do not cut your hours.

[Anonymous]

Did the firm not assign you a mentor (other than the person you said that you knew from law school)? If so, have you considered talking to that person and getting some advice from them? You need to focus on upping your billable hours. And of course things are different at a law firm than at DOJ, but I assume you knew that when you made the switch.