Big law, big mistake?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, what Vault range is your firm? Is the small firm that contacted you made up of biglaw refugees (ie., a "boutique")?

If you are at a V5 (Skadden, for instance), you should be able to easily lateral to a lower V100 firm. If you are at a sub-V50, it may be harder for you to lateral.

Small firm may or may not be a good option. The risk there is that it's biglaw hours, nearly as much certainty for making partner, and significantly less money. Or it could be completely great.

If it is a true boutique firm (big law refugees was a good way to put it) then it should pay market or slightly below market. Suss out the firm culture somehow, it could be truly pleasant and collegial in a way big law never is or could be toxic. Many small firms are healthier work environments. If it is a small firm that isn't boutique, then don't do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, my own view is that it may be too soon to tell. Yes, you may have dug yourself a hole. On the other hand, you may be putting too much stock in this one associate's "overheard" conversation. Also, I have always thought persistence matters. It is very hard to navigate the Big Law world; we all make mistakes. You may still have plenty of time to re-steer your ship and recover, especially if there are other big partners to develop a relationship with.

That being said, I'm very curious about all these comments that are basically saying that once you mess up once at Big Law/make a bad impression, your path is ruined forever. I'm finding that hard to believe, but I'm only a senior associate. I have found that persistence matters; that you just keep plugging away. But perhaps I am unaware.

I'd love to hear if there are any Big Law partners/of counsel who have had an experience where they self-corrected and recovered from trip ups/bad impressions etc. and gone on to still be successful over the long run . Do you exist?

What you're saying was true at my NYC biglaw firm (v25) back in 2005 or 2006 -- i.e. one mistake esp for a newbie wasn't detrimental, you could keep plugging away and improve. But nowadays it is very much one strike and you're out (not immediately - you get the "concerning" review where they tell you to improve and then they freeze you out and don't give you enough work to improve so in the follow up review 6 months or 1 yr later you're told -- sorry this isn't working for us, pls leave in 3 months or 6 month or whatever they decide).

[Anonymous]

OP back. Sorry, I got slammed at work because even though I do think I'm being frozen out, they still need a grunt worker to work crazy late hours randomly. Generally the only time they need me is Friday at 5 PM for assignments due Monday at 7 AM but ocassionally there are Tuesday at 5 PM assignments due Tuesday at midnight.

This was great advice. I appreciate the straight forward criticism and the touchy feely advice. And the poster who called me a sorority girl (and likely a woman) hit it in the nose.

I will miss the firm but I decided I can't be the bill-bill-bill type and while I've worked most weekends, I'm not getting enough hours so it is inevitable. There is a "homegrown" favoritism and a lot of anger against associates who bill pro bono work instead of real work. It's weird because my pro bono work has helped the recruiting efforts which is encouraging more associates like me.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP back. Sorry, I got slammed at work because even though I do think I'm being frozen out, they still need a grunt worker to work crazy late hours randomly. Generally the only time they need me is Friday at 5 PM for assignments due Monday at 7 AM but ocassionally there are Tuesday at 5 PM assignments due Tuesday at midnight.

This was great advice. I appreciate the straight forward criticism and the touchy feely advice. And the poster who called me a sorority girl (and likely a woman) hit it in the nose.

I will miss the firm but I decided I can't be the bill-bill-bill type and while I've worked most weekends, I'm not getting enough hours so it is inevitable. There is a "homegrown" favoritism and a lot of anger against associates who bill pro bono work instead of real work. It's weird because my pro bono work has helped the recruiting efforts which is encouraging more associates like me.

Thank you.

If you are really thinking about leaving (and it sounds like you are) I would use this opportunity to learn as much as you can about what went wrong. Be self-critical. Try and make adjustments now at your current firm so you can be ready to hit the ground running at your next stop (whatever it is). I went from government to a firm and was a bit of a mess because I had zero clue as to what firms really require, and also encountered a bad fit. I left after 18 months. But what I did--and the best thing you can do--is make sure you don't make the same mistakes at the next place you land. And that require a bit of self-critical thinking about what you could do better.

Best of luck. And in my experience, I went from feeling so down at firm 1, to really thriving at firm 2. A better fit, and better performance, can really make a world of difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP back. Sorry, I got slammed at work because even though I do think I'm being frozen out, they still need a grunt worker to work crazy late hours randomly. Generally the only time they need me is Friday at 5 PM for assignments due Monday at 7 AM but ocassionally there are Tuesday at 5 PM assignments due Tuesday at midnight.

This was great advice. I appreciate the straight forward criticism and the touchy feely advice. And the poster who called me a sorority girl (and likely a woman) hit it in the nose.

I will miss the firm but I decided I can't be the bill-bill-bill type and while I've worked most weekends, I'm not getting enough hours so it is inevitable. There is a "homegrown" favoritism and a lot of anger against associates who bill pro bono work instead of real work. It's weird because my pro bono work has helped the recruiting efforts which is encouraging more associates like me.

Thank you.

Honestly if you're one of those that doesn't want to bill and is upset by sitting around all day and then getting a 7pm-midnight project, what on earth drove you to biglaw. I know for gov't ppl it's money but did you really expect an easy 200k+? Did it never occur to you that biglaw pays like that for associates' 24-7 availability for billable work?

[Anonymous]

Biglaw at a "lower" v100 here (traditional labor) - maybe it's just my firm/practice area, but i can count on one hand (well, maybe two) that i've gotten projects in the evening that need to be done RIGHT AWAY or on friday that required me to work over the weekend. i know some practice areas are like this, but it almost seems like senior associates/partners are intentionally doing this to OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, my own view is that it may be too soon to tell. Yes, you may have dug yourself a hole. On the other hand, you may be putting too much stock in this one associate's "overheard" conversation. Also, I have always thought persistence matters. It is very hard to navigate the Big Law world; we all make mistakes. You may still have plenty of time to re-steer your ship and recover, especially if there are other big partners to develop a relationship with.

That being said, I'm very curious about all these comments that are basically saying that once you mess up once at Big Law/make a bad impression, your path is ruined forever. I'm finding that hard to believe, but I'm only a senior associate. I have found that persistence matters; that you just keep plugging away. But perhaps I am unaware.

I'd love to hear if there are any Big Law partners/of counsel who have had an experience where they self-corrected and recovered from trip ups/bad impressions etc. and gone on to still be successful over the long run . Do you exist?

What you're saying was true at my NYC biglaw firm (v25) back in 2005 or 2006 -- i.e. one mistake esp for a newbie wasn't detrimental, you could keep plugging away and improve. But nowadays it is very much one strike and you're out (not immediately - you get the "concerning" review where they tell you to improve and then they freeze you out and don't give you enough work to improve so in the follow up review 6 months or 1 yr later you're told -- sorry this isn't working for us, pls leave in 3 months or 6 month or whatever they decide).

This is an exaggeration. It's not in the economic interests of BigLaw firms to blackball new associates, particularly laterals, for one screw-up. Training and recruiting is expensive.

Having said that, people can be very judgmental, because they are looking to advance their favored associates over others, both to make their own lives easier and to assert dominance. And BigLaw firms as organizations, typically are very poor when it comes to looking at associates as human capital. The assumption is that they can always find another body to do their grunt work.

[Anonymous]

You are out, apply elsewhere. You are exactly the reason that BigLaw doesn't like to hire from government. You are bitter when you get hours because you don't like when they fall - get over it, that is the job. You did absolutely nothing to figure out politics - yes, you have to do a bit of recruiting, but that should only happen after you do as much work as possible. If you are heading out to recruiting events before 9pm when you are low on billables, you aren't fit for the job. In no way is it too soon to tell, these decisions are usually made within a few weeks. One bit of not understanding tone or pushback on a deadline for a seemingly grunty project during that time, and you are a goner.

It makes no difference whether blackballing is in the firm's financial interest. They do it anyway. If you don't have the chops, they aren't going to invest their time, which is worth way more than your second year salary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are out, apply elsewhere. You are exactly the reason that BigLaw doesn't like to hire from government. You are bitter when you get hours because you don't like when they fall - get over it, that is the job. You did absolutely nothing to figure out politics - yes, you have to do a bit of recruiting, but that should only happen after you do as much work as possible. If you are heading out to recruiting events before 9pm when you are low on billables, you aren't fit for the job. In no way is it too soon to tell, these decisions are usually made within a few weeks. One bit of not understanding tone or pushback on a deadline for a seemingly grunty project during that time, and you are a goner.

It makes no difference whether blackballing is in the firm's financial interest. They do it anyway. If you don't have the chops, they aren't going to invest their time, which is worth way more than your second year salary.

To state the obvious, you sound bitter, but that's no excuse for misleading OP. You're like an ex-wife whose husband cheated, and now want every married woman to suspect an affair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP back. Sorry, I got slammed at work because even though I do think I'm being frozen out, they still need a grunt worker to work crazy late hours randomly. Generally the only time they need me is Friday at 5 PM for assignments due Monday at 7 AM but ocassionally there are Tuesday at 5 PM assignments due Tuesday at midnight.

This was great advice. I appreciate the straight forward criticism and the touchy feely advice. And the poster who called me a sorority girl (and likely a woman) hit it in the nose.

I will miss the firm but I decided I can't be the bill-bill-bill type and while I've worked most weekends, I'm not getting enough hours so it is inevitable. There is a "homegrown" favoritism and a lot of anger against associates who bill pro bono work instead of real work. It's weird because my pro bono work has helped the recruiting efforts which is encouraging more associates like me.

Thank you.

Honestly if you're one of those that doesn't want to bill and is upset by sitting around all day and then getting a 7pm-midnight project, what on earth drove you to biglaw. I know for gov't ppl it's money but did you really expect an easy 200k+? Did it never occur to you that biglaw pays like that for associates' 24-7 availability for billable work?

No advice for OP - but this is why I didn't last in BigLaw (among other things). It made me crazy, as a jr associate, keeping that kind of schedule. I got the talk ("find something else in three months, you can say you left by your own volition") after about a year and a half, and it was harsh but correct - not a good fit.

Good luck, OP. It sounds like you like YOUR version of BigLaw - doing a lot of recruiting and pro bono, but not really *being* a BigLaw lawyer. I hope you can find a situation that gives you the parts of this that you like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are out, apply elsewhere. You are exactly the reason that BigLaw doesn't like to hire from government. You are bitter when you get hours because you don't like when they fall - get over it, that is the job. You did absolutely nothing to figure out politics - yes, you have to do a bit of recruiting, but that should only happen after you do as much work as possible. If you are heading out to recruiting events before 9pm when you are low on billables, you aren't fit for the job. In no way is it too soon to tell, these decisions are usually made within a few weeks. One bit of not understanding tone or pushback on a deadline for a seemingly grunty project during that time, and you are a goner.

It makes no difference whether blackballing is in the firm's financial interest. They do it anyway. If you don't have the chops, they aren't going to invest their time, which is worth way more than your second year salary.

To state the obvious, you sound bitter, but that's no excuse for misleading OP. You're like an ex-wife whose husband cheated, and now want every married woman to suspect an affair.

I'm not the slightest bit bitter. I left on my own accord in my 8th year, and I'm quite happy. I wasn't unhappy then either; I just didn't see it as the life I wanted when raising a child. I saw a lot during that time though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I believe a bunch of big law lawyers are responding in this thread: too many sanctimonious personal attacks and too little in the way of useful advice going forward. This is what feedback looks like in big law; mostly personal attacks pointing out what you did wrong and very little advice on what hat you should affirmatively do in the future because the latter would actually force your reviewer to take a position on something.

1. If you continue to be slow, max out your pro bono hours to the extent that your firm gives billable credit to pro bono hours. If your firm gives unlimited credit to pro bono hours, don't go over 100 for the fiscal year.

2. Confront the issue head on. Ask this specific partner for work. If you continue to be slow ask to take on non-billable work from him/her, like prepping pitch books, writing articles, etc....

3. (A) Pounce on new partners and partners that lateral in to the firm. You should still have a neutral reputation with those people. (B) Suck it up and go ask the most difficult partners in your practice group for work. They sometimes have a tougher time staffing and there may be hours there for the taking.

4. Does your law school classmate know you came in as a second year? If he/she is a fifth year and beleives you are a fifth year also, your classmate could see you as competition and you should take things he/she says with a grain of salt.

5. Goes without saying, but don't delegate right now to the extent you don't have to. Your lower billable rate sort of helps you here and you can do work that would otherwise be appropriate for juniors/non-legal personnel.

6. Start applying for other jobs. You can claim you wanted to shift the focus of your practice group.

7. Whether you're slow or not, you don't leave early (whatever that means for your practice group).

8. They may be paying you as a second year but they are expecting midlevel quality work. Don't forget that.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP back. Sorry, I got slammed at work because even though I do think I'm being frozen out, they still need a grunt worker to work crazy late hours randomly. Generally the only time they need me is Friday at 5 PM for assignments due Monday at 7 AM but ocassionally there are Tuesday at 5 PM assignments due Tuesday at midnight.

This was great advice. I appreciate the straight forward criticism and the touchy feely advice. And the poster who called me a sorority girl (and likely a woman) hit it in the nose.

I will miss the firm but I decided I can't be the bill-bill-bill type and while I've worked most weekends, I'm not getting enough hours so it is inevitable. There is a "homegrown" favoritism and a lot of anger against associates who bill pro bono work instead of real work. It's weird because my pro bono work has helped the recruiting efforts which is encouraging more associates like me.

Thank you.

NP. It seems like you're still not getting it. Why would the firm celebrate your non-billable pro bono hours when you aren't meeting your billable requirement? The firm wants associates who can meet their billable hours. Period.

And just to forewarn you: this is also the case at smaller firms. You may not be expected to stay until 9pm or work every single weekend, but you will be expected to meet your hours. Smaller firms may care less how you go about doing that (face time at the office may not be as important) but make no mistake about what is expected of you.

[Anonymous]

There has already been a lot of good advice here, so sorry to repeat. But my two cents: I'm really confused why OP would take this rumor/gossip to be gospel. I mean, yes, be aware of this comment, but it's not over yet. I would not interview at other places, at least until I've had a chance to speak to the partners about getting an opportunity to make hours and get more assignments. I would tell the partners in your group that you are interested in staying longterm at the firm, and making partner, then ask them what advice they have for your to succeed. If they require a certain skill set, figure out how to get that skill set. If there are assignments you wish to be considered for, ask for them directly from the partner in charge. Be more direct and frank with the partners (and senior associates), if you want honest feedback about your performance so far. My experience is that partners are very busy, and giving negative feedback to someone, especially when it's unsolicited, is just not something they will make time to do. Some partners even feel weird writing it out on an annual review, just takes time and effort on their part. Unless someone is writing an extremely glowing review OR an extremely bad review, most partners don't take the time to analyze the mediocre talent. But, I've seen several people preserver and eventually make partner, even though they started out with mediocre or even bad reviews. The way OP is responding to this setback is just bound to repeat itself, no matter where you go. Take this opportunity now to address the problem. Get some honest feedback, and don't want until your formal review. Don't limit yourself to your assigned mentor -- ask several partners for feedback (each one has their own POV, as well as their own strengths and weaknesses). In this way, you can focus your energy on improving yourself professionally. Just leaving at the smallest whisper of trouble is not going to solve your underlying problems, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP back. Sorry, I got slammed at work because even though I do think I'm being frozen out, they still need a grunt worker to work crazy late hours randomly. Generally the only time they need me is Friday at 5 PM for assignments due Monday at 7 AM but ocassionally there are Tuesday at 5 PM assignments due Tuesday at midnight.

This was great advice. I appreciate the straight forward criticism and the touchy feely advice. And the poster who called me a sorority girl (and likely a woman) hit it in the nose.

I will miss the firm but I decided I can't be the bill-bill-bill type and while I've worked most weekends, I'm not getting enough hours so it is inevitable. There is a "homegrown" favoritism and a lot of anger against associates who bill pro bono work instead of real work. It's weird because my pro bono work has helped the recruiting efforts which is encouraging more associates like me.

Thank you.



Honestly if you're one of those that doesn't want to bill and is upset by sitting around all day and then getting a 7pm-midnight project, what on earth drove you to biglaw. I know for gov't ppl it's money but did you really expect an easy 200k+? Did it never occur to you that biglaw pays like that for associates' 24-7 availability for billable work?

You are getting the grunt assignments as a test of commitment. There is already an assumption that government lawyers won't be willing to put in the billable time. Your over-involvement in recruitment has reinforced that perception.
You need to knock it out of the ballpark on the after-hours requests.
Then you need to figure out the most powerful partner in your group, even if it is the one who allegedly dislikes you, and go petition that partner for work. Not once, not twice, but multiple times. Then, after you have already gotten some type of positive feedback on an actual work assignment, and feel like you have started establishing a connection---be completely honest with that partner about where you feel you may have gone wrong and ask that partner's advice for how to fix it. You first need to have proved to the partner that you are even worth wasting the brain time on considering whether to give you constructive feedback.
You do not make partner in BigLaw without having a big rainmaker in your corner. That is who you need to cultivate, while at the same time making sure that any work you do for the "work" partners is top-notch. I have seen numerous supporting work partners cut the legs out from under associates if the partner believes they are insufficiently respected by the associates just because the work partner is not a rainmaker. But overall, the person who will help you the most is the rainmaker---both within the firm and outside of it---as they are the attorneys with the business contacts and savvy who can get you placed in an in-house role.