Affirmative action has failed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

Yes, that's a really excellent point, and one which gets totally lost when people think about college education as an individual investment/entitlement/choice rather than a public good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

The title of the thread, comes directly from the NYTimes article.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not an expert researcher. But the article is missing some data that I want. The article is using college age population for each group as the base. I don't want that to be the only information I'm given. I would like to know what percent of the total population base of each group has even applied to college at all. Does that make sense? Maybe the % is the same if you compare it to total number of college applicants rather than total percent of college age kids of each group.

I think that's a really good point and would make a tremendous difference to the figures. "College aged" is not sufficient it is a blanket group which will include non-English speakers, kids who dropped out of high school aged 16 or thereabouts and those who went into trades with no intention of ever attending college. Its not a detailed enough category.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

The title of the thread, comes directly from the NYTimes article.

No, it doesn't. The article does NOT say that affirmative action in admissions has failed. The article is entitled "Even with Affirmative Action, Blacks and Hispanics are More Under-represented." It CLEARLY says that affirmative action at the college admissions level HELPS, but is not enough:

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

[Anonymous]

I'd like to see these states broken out state by states. Are there any states doing a better job getting minority kids to the flagship public? What role do gifted programs play?

Just anecdotally, we all know really smart kids who just went wrong in life. I wonder how many "missing" extremely talented black and hispanic kids are lost that way: lost to teen pregnancy, drugs, jail. The consequences of messing up are much greater than for a white kid. Or is it more anodyne, that very smart black and hispanic kids are going to mid-ranked colleges -- U Mass instead of Harvard?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm really surprised with the data from the Ivy League. Harvard 2020 I believe is 15% black.

I would struggle to think any time at Harvard when the black concentration was that high.

Incorrect. It was 11.4%.
http://features.thecrimson.com/2016/freshman-survey/makeup/

Sorry I meant class of 2021.

It's listed as 14.6% black as per Harvard website

[Anonymous]

Wow I'm surprised the NAACP and blm haven't marched on cal tech.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

The title of the thread, comes directly from the NYTimes article.

No, it doesn't. The article does NOT say that affirmative action in admissions has failed. The article is entitled "Even with Affirmative Action, Blacks and Hispanics are More Under-represented." It CLEARLY says that affirmative action at the college admissions level HELPS, but is not enough:

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

We should also consider that all the data is way after Bakke v. Univ. of California that struck down quotas, so affirmative action is not as robust as it could be in admissions decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not an expert researcher. But the article is missing some data that I want. The article is using college age population for each group as the base. I don't want that to be the only information I'm given. I would like to know what percent of the total population base of each group has even applied to college at all. Does that make sense? Maybe the % is the same if you compare it to total number of college applicants rather than total percent of college age kids of each group.

I think that's a really good point and would make a tremendous difference to the figures. "College aged" is not sufficient it is a blanket group which will include non-English speakers, kids who dropped out of high school aged 16 or thereabouts and those who went into trades with no intention of ever attending college. Its not a detailed enough category.

No, that's entirely the point. You start from the premise that all kids are equally educable. Not that some people by virture of their skin color drop out at higher rates.

[Anonymous]

This isn't a failure of affirmative action, but of our education system as a whole. Poor, URM kids go to crappy schools, which set them back from the very beginning. If all American children went to comparatively high quality schools, I would bet money that URM would have higher representation and AA would not even be necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not an expert researcher. But the article is missing some data that I want. The article is using college age population for each group as the base. I don't want that to be the only information I'm given. I would like to know what percent of the total population base of each group has even applied to college at all. Does that make sense? Maybe the % is the same if you compare it to total number of college applicants rather than total percent of college age kids of each group.

I think that's a really good point and would make a tremendous difference to the figures. "College aged" is not sufficient it is a blanket group which will include non-English speakers, kids who dropped out of high school aged 16 or thereabouts and those who went into trades with no intention of ever attending college. Its not a detailed enough category.

No, that's entirely the point. You start from the premise that all kids are equally educable. Not that some people by virture of their skin color drop out at higher rates.

Its still too broad. How can you consider all "college aged" kids from certain ethnic backgrounds and compare with only those who applied and attended these colleges? That's skewed. If that is the category required, it should look at ALL "college aged" kids, including all the white drop outs and trade school learners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

Yes, that's a really excellent point, and one which gets totally lost when people think about college education as an individual investment/entitlement/choice rather than a public good.

+ 1000 Unfortunately most people in the US do not look at college education as anything close to this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

The title of the thread, comes directly from the NYTimes article.

No, it doesn't. The article does NOT say that affirmative action in admissions has failed. The article is entitled "Even with Affirmative Action, Blacks and Hispanics are More Under-represented." It CLEARLY says that affirmative action at the college admissions level HELPS, but is not enough:

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

The details of the article do however, show that it has in fact failed without specifically using that word. Its not detailing the success of affirmative action by any means whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

OK, 14.6% were admitted but only 13.2% accepted admission. I wonder if it drops further next week when they see who actually shows up? It seems like the year before was 11.4%.

“Nearly 50 percent of the matriculants are women: 49.6 percent compared to 47.8 percent last year,” said Marlyn E. McGrath, director of admissions. “In addition, a record 13.2 percent are African Americans.”