When teaching empathy and mental health in middle schools gives them ideas

[Anonymous]

Does teaching sex ed give them ideas? Does drug education give them ideas?

This year, my kid learned about Alexander the Great and DC hasn't decided to try to conquer the known world yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does teaching sex ed give them ideas? Does drug education give them ideas?

This year, my kid learned about Alexander the Great and DC hasn't decided to try to conquer the known world yet.

Yet, I was convinced I had parasites after learning about them in 7th grade science.....perhaps the 'messaging' about Alexander the Great was different than the 'messaging' about parasites?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really OP? Teaching kids about empathy is somehow bad? Do you think we shouldn't teach them about charity too? Maybe we shouldn't tell them about suicide or poverty or sexual abuse because it will "give them ideas".

It's amazing to me that somebody could criticize a program that is teaching our children how to be better human beings. I've got news for you about your anecdotal example of self-harm: nobody would engage in self-harm unless they were feeling pretty damn awful. Nobody will keep a child from learning about self-harm unless the kids are locked in a basement with no contact with the outside world. You cannot protect your children from information and the thought that this information gives them harmful ideas is ludicrous.

Your irrationally hostile reaction to this question suggests perhaps that you are in need of some mental health counseling.

Teens are impressionable. The way this stuff is messaged is important. I'm suggesting that perhaps the messaging is off, not that it shouldn't be taught at all.

How would you change the messaging?

Well, in the case of the kid who experimented with self-harm, that was pretty much an independent study project. So, I'd review that -- or provide a list of acceptable sources to consult. There's some freaky stuff out there that kids could stumble on, including sites that glamorize anorexia, for example.

I have less of an issue around the sexual identity piece of it. But it is a little weird how a bunch of kids suddenly decide they're trans or pansexual or whatever in the weeks after these topics are introduced. No doubt genuinely are, but there may be more an element of "celebrating" these rare orientations than accepting them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Well, in the case of the kid who experimented with self-harm, that was pretty much an independent study project. So, I'd review that -- or provide a list of acceptable sources to consult. There's some freaky stuff out there that kids could stumble on, including sites that glamorize anorexia, for example.

I have less of an issue around the sexual identity piece of it. But it is a little weird how a bunch of kids suddenly decide they're trans or pansexual or whatever in the weeks after these topics are introduced. No doubt genuinely are, but there may be more an element of "celebrating" these rare orientations than accepting them.

Middle-schoolers doing something to get attention, imagine!

My middle-schooler had to get a parent's signature on her independent study project. Wouldn't that solve the problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am concerned about something that I know I cannot bring up in the AEM forum because I would be attacked relentlessly. But it's a very real thing, I think.

APS has built into its curriculum units on teaching empathy and about mental health. But I am really concerned that however well intentioned, some of these lessons are giving ideas to impressionable young teenagers.

Cases in point:

-- Frequently touted surveys that show kids in the middle schools are feeling highly anxious to the point of having trouble functioning. This may actually be true, but it may also be true that this "anxiety" is merely stress. Mislabeling it anxiety or having the kids think its anxiety leads to kids who are already trying on various identities as teenagers deciding they're anxious/depressed whatever as if it's a status thing. It's hard to separate the legitimate cases from those that are something else (or nothing at all). My own kid announced she was anxious but then what I figured out after listening to her (and sending her to a therapist at her request) was no, she's not anxious at all (farthest thing from it, actually), just merely under stress due to pressure to get good grades, practice her music and do her chores. But she was literally telling us because she has anxiety we need to drop these expectations.

-- A friend's child was assigned the topic of "self-harm" for a health class and English project. Child had never heard of self-harm before. You want to guess what happened? Child experimented with self-harm and then went in and told the counselor that she had tried (very superficially) to cut herself. She isn't actually experiencing mentally ill -- I think she wanted to see a reaction first-hand. Anyway it seems to be an isolated incident, but you'd better believe the school put this idea into her head.

-- We also had a phase where a whole bunch of kids decided they were gay/trans/pan sexual after a steady stream of messages about sexual identity. I realize saying this will be controversial, but it's true -- there was some power of suggestion here. All I know is in my middle school no one walked around talking earnestly and constantly about their sexual identity. Those conversations happened later -- high school or college.

Is this worth having a broader policy discussion about? Because I do understand the value in teaching kids to empathize, but I'm not sure we fully appreciate the risks, particularly with lessons dealing with issues like self-harm, anorexia, drug use, etc.

Your "cases" don't really point to much other than kids in middle school need help process issues like mental health and empathy situations and it is reasonable that adults in their life will have to guide them and help them.

What you want is for these kids to have the same thinking and analytics as an adult such that they hear about something or read it , reflect on it, analyze in terms of their own experiences, and then make a decision. The problem, of course, is that these kids lack the experience to analyze so they make mistakes and it's on the adults to guide them and help them. Those mistakes are their experiences that then use as they get older.

The topics of mental health are often hard for many adults to discuss without embarassement or feeling insecure. Maybe they are worried their kids will ask them if they have suffered with the issues and they aren't prepared to talk about it. But that's really the adult's issue not the kids and it doesn't mean that this education isn't need. In fact, it highlights the need even more so. The next generation of adults will be better prepared to have these dicussions .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So in your first example, your child used a term that she'd been taught in school to communicate to you that she was feeling overwhelmed. Your belief is that the things she's being asked to do are normal, reasonable expectations, which is fine, but she's also telling you that she's feeling overwhelmed. The point of teaching empathy about anxiety is to teach children that they do not have to bottle up their feelings of stress/anxiety/whatever word you are comfortable with - that it is okay to communicate those feelings. The obvious next step would be to figure out a way to alleviate the anxiety while still meeting expectations. That should be a thing you do together, and her desire for you to lower your expectations isn't something that you have to do because she said she was anxious. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card.

In your second example, a child learned about a new behavior and was curious about it. A trained counselor (I am one) is able to tell the difference between a child who does what this child did and a child who is actually engaging in self-harm. If it hadn't been an English project that "put the idea in her head" it would have been something else - a TV show, one of her friends actually self-harming, etc. This situation became a teachable moment because it occurred in an environment where she was being monitored. A child who cuts in a non-superficial way almost always goes out of their way to conceal that behavior from adults. Instead, this child experienced this issue being addressed directly, in an appropriate context. While I'm sorry that the child cut herself, it sounds like it was handled well, which is a lot better than how these things usually present and are handled.

I have nothing to say about your third example. People do not "decide" that they are gay or transgender because they heard about it in a school class. If anything, gay and transgender kids who have never had vocabulary to explain their identity learn the vocabulary and are able to communicate about their identity. Is it true that children experiment with identity and sexuality? Absolutely. Is it also true that that experimentation is happening earlier? Absolutely. Is that because it's being taught in school? No, it's a broader societal thing in which children are being exposed to more adult content and themes earlier. We can agree to disagree about whether it's appropriate for those things to be taught in school, but I personally feel that sex education needs to be comprehensive (so, including the stuff you're concerned about) and also start in early middle school at the very latest. If you wait until high school (as was the case in my school system 20 years ago), for many children, it is already too late. That principle certainly holds true now that children are experimenting and considering these issues earlier.

I'm a counselor and I sometimes work with middle school-aged children. What I will say is that from my experience in working with both adults and children is that neither are quite as suggestible as you seem to think. A lot of counselors have a really hard time asking about trauma, suicidality, sexual abuse, etc. because they are concerned that simply by asking, they will trigger their client or cause them to feel suicidal when they were not. It doesn't work that way. I think you are right to be attentive to the things your child is learning. As she gets older, she will continue to learn about controversial topics and one of your jobs as a parent is to guide her through that learning process using whatever values are appropriate to your family. If, for example, it is very much outside your family's values for your child to experiment sexually at all until a certain age, then the messages you would be enforcing is that some kids do X or Y, but in our family, we do not do X or Y until Z age. I understand that many of these conversations may be uncomfortable for you to have as well, but I promise you that eliminating the conversations is not going to stop your child from learning about these topics. It's really just a matter of whether that learning happens from media and friends or whether it happens at school and at home.

Just my $0.03.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So in your first example, your child used a term that she'd been taught in school to communicate to you that she was feeling overwhelmed. Your belief is that the things she's being asked to do are normal, reasonable expectations, which is fine, but she's also telling you that she's feeling overwhelmed. The point of teaching empathy about anxiety is to teach children that they do not have to bottle up their feelings of stress/anxiety/whatever word you are comfortable with - that it is okay to communicate those feelings. The obvious next step would be to figure out a way to alleviate the anxiety while still meeting expectations. That should be a thing you do together, and her desire for you to lower your expectations isn't something that you have to do because she said she was anxious. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card.

In your second example, a child learned about a new behavior and was curious about it. A trained counselor (I am one) is able to tell the difference between a child who does what this child did and a child who is actually engaging in self-harm. If it hadn't been an English project that "put the idea in her head" it would have been something else - a TV show, one of her friends actually self-harming, etc. This situation became a teachable moment because it occurred in an environment where she was being monitored. A child who cuts in a non-superficial way almost always goes out of their way to conceal that behavior from adults. Instead, this child experienced this issue being addressed directly, in an appropriate context. While I'm sorry that the child cut herself, it sounds like it was handled well, which is a lot better than how these things usually present and are handled.

I have nothing to say about your third example. People do not "decide" that they are gay or transgender because they heard about it in a school class. If anything, gay and transgender kids who have never had vocabulary to explain their identity learn the vocabulary and are able to communicate about their identity. Is it true that children experiment with identity and sexuality? Absolutely. Is it also true that that experimentation is happening earlier? Absolutely. Is that because it's being taught in school? No, it's a broader societal thing in which children are being exposed to more adult content and themes earlier. We can agree to disagree about whether it's appropriate for those things to be taught in school, but I personally feel that sex education needs to be comprehensive (so, including the stuff you're concerned about) and also start in early middle school at the very latest. If you wait until high school (as was the case in my school system 20 years ago), for many children, it is already too late. That principle certainly holds true now that children are experimenting and considering these issues earlier.

I'm a counselor and I sometimes work with middle school-aged children. What I will say is that from my experience in working with both adults and children is that neither are quite as suggestible as you seem to think. A lot of counselors have a really hard time asking about trauma, suicidality, sexual abuse, etc. because they are concerned that simply by asking, they will trigger their client or cause them to feel suicidal when they were not. It doesn't work that way. I think you are right to be attentive to the things your child is learning. As she gets older, she will continue to learn about controversial topics and one of your jobs as a parent is to guide her through that learning process using whatever values are appropriate to your family. If, for example, it is very much outside your family's values for your child to experiment sexually at all until a certain age, then the messages you would be enforcing is that some kids do X or Y, but in our family, we do not do X or Y until Z age. I understand that many of these conversations may be uncomfortable for you to have as well, but I promise you that eliminating the conversations is not going to stop your child from learning about these topics. It's really just a matter of whether that learning happens from media and friends or whether it happens at school and at home.

Just my $0.03.

OP here. Thanks for this thoughtful reply. It's the perspective I was seeking. I understood and support the goals. But I guess I was alarmed when my friend's daughter decided to start cutting herself after being assigned a project on self-harm.

The sexual identity thing -- I do think kids try that on a little more these days in middle schools and think it's harmless.

The anxiety thing bothers me a bit since you're right that it's about the vocabulary and they're giving them the wrong vocabulary. Especially when getting kids worked up and thinking they have anxiety leads to cutting or self-harm behaviors. Finding a way to validate their feelings, as you suggest, without playing along with the more dramatic diagnosis (stress and anxiety are different things and have different solutions) is the tricky part.

Thanks for what you do.

[Anonymous]

OP, I think you did a great thing by supporting your DD's interest in seeing a therapist to discuss anxiety and whether she has it. How amazing is she for wanting to take some agency over her own health, and for seeking out information from a good source!

As for her notion that your family would waive expectations, though, I'd tell her nice try. As the parent of a kid with a longstanding anxiety disorder, I have to tell you that is the farthest thing from what you would actually do to deal with anxiety. Provide scaffolding and support, sure; give choices to enable a sense of responsibility and agency, absolutely; but eliminate reasonable expectations--no way.

[Anonymous]

Counselor PP here.

I am not saying that you shouldn't be alarmed by the cutting child. It's an alarming situation, but it's the sort of thing that kids will learn about and be curious about. When I was in high school, we learned about this from our friends. A friend of mine told me that it helped her to feel less overwhelmed. I thought, hey, that sounds nice, I'll try it. You know what? I didn't feel less overwhelmed. I felt like I had a superficial scratch on my arm that hurt and that I then I had to figure out how to hide from my mom. I didn't have anyone to talk to about it and it definitely didn't come up in any kind of context where I was being educated by a professional. I'm so glad that there are programs available now, even if they're not always perfect.

I also agree with you about the anxiety thing. I wish that there were better words to describe regular stressors. I do think that it sounds like it would be valuable to check in with your daughter about her activities and make sure she's getting enough downtime. There's a difference between a kid who is feeling overscheduled or is in a developmental place where things feel overwhelming in general, and a kid who is lazy. I don't know your daughter and can't comment on which of those things applies to the situation, but continued evaluation of that seems like it would be good.

From my own practice, I prefer to operate from a collaborative place that puts the kid's experience on the same level as the parents' expectations. Like, are these expectations realistic for this kid at this time? Is this kid happy with these specific activities? Would the kid do better with sports vs. music vs. riding lessons or whatever? Would this kid do better with X chore instead of Y chore? Those conversations are hard to have when the kid frames it as "I'm experiencing mental illness!" which is one reason why, diagnostically, there are duration qualifications and also things that need to be ruled out (e.g., if your mom just died and you're sad, even if you meet all the other diagnostic criteria for major depressive disorder, you may actually just be experiencing regular grief).

Sorry I messed up the formatting earlier and also for the long winded response. I love what I do and don't want the types of programs that we put together to get misinterpreted or eliminated because of misunderstandings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really OP? Teaching kids about empathy is somehow bad? Do you think we shouldn't teach them about charity too? Maybe we shouldn't tell them about suicide or poverty or sexual abuse because it will "give them ideas".

It's amazing to me that somebody could criticize a program that is teaching our children how to be better human beings. I've got news for you about your anecdotal example of self-harm: nobody would engage in self-harm unless they were feeling pretty damn awful. Nobody will keep a child from learning about self-harm unless the kids are locked in a basement with no contact with the outside world. You cannot protect your children from information and the thought that this information gives them harmful ideas is ludicrous.

Your irrationally hostile reaction to this question suggests perhaps that you are in need of some mental health counseling.

Teens are impressionable. The way this stuff is messaged is important. I'm suggesting that perhaps the messaging is off, not that it shouldn't be taught at all.

+100
OP, I feel similarly to you. On the one hand, I do think kids need to be taught about these issues and what to do should they (or a friend) need help. On the other hand, there are plenty of impressionable (and silly) tweens/teens who love the idea of manufactured drama. They are being given a gold mine with which to practice when introduced to issues they wouldn't have given a second thought about previously. I'm not sure what the answer is here.

And I fully expected an indignant poster, like the PP, to show up and tell you off. How predictable. You can't even have a conversation without someone like that becoming needlessly hostile and argumentative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does teaching sex ed give them ideas? Does drug education give them ideas?

This year, my kid learned about Alexander the Great and DC hasn't decided to try to conquer the known world yet.

What an idiotic response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does teaching sex ed give them ideas? Does drug education give them ideas?

This year, my kid learned about Alexander the Great and DC hasn't decided to try to conquer the known world yet.

If they taught sex ed like they do in France it would give them ideas and a lot of people in this country would be much happier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

+100
OP, I feel similarly to you. On the one hand, I do think kids need to be taught about these issues and what to do should they (or a friend) need help. On the other hand, there are plenty of impressionable (and silly) tweens/teens who love the idea of manufactured drama. They are being given a gold mine with which to practice when introduced to issues they wouldn't have given a second thought about previously. I'm not sure what the answer is here.

And I fully expected an indignant poster, like the PP, to show up and tell you off. How predictable. You can't even have a conversation without someone like that becoming needlessly hostile and argumentative.

I do. Keeping middle-schoolers ignorant won't prevent manufactured drama. Ignorant middle-schoolers can manufacture drama just as well as informed ones.

[Anonymous]

I am a school counselor. Many, many times, I have had a middle schooler tell me they cut (or starve themselves, or purge etc.) for relief, then tell their parent it was just experimentation or an idea they got from a friend. My two cents is that parents should take all of it seriously, without overreacting to the child. Let them disclose in a way that feels comfortable. I teach wellness and I fully explain the difference between stress and anxiety, and the kids still use those words interchangeably. Don't get caught up in the terminology. Just listen and assess. You know your child best. As drama seeking as middle school students are, they really do suffer deeply at times, and they almost all try to minimize it once they've disclosed their feelings. They tend to feel exposed and back pedal. And honestly, if the worst result is they get some unneeded therapy, it never hurts to give your child one on one time with a trained adult. We all can benefit from some extra coping strategies. The lessons themselves are not causing the issues. As a middle school counselor, I know they are internalizing these messages from everywhere. At least with lessons it highlights that there are specific adults who are in the know and can be approached for help.

[Anonymous]

OP, I don't think you can put teaching empathy in the same bucket as teaching sexual identity and self harm, etc. What exactly are you concerned may happen to children who are taught compassion? I have two sons. One has a lot of empathy for other people and animals. The other one is selfish and exhibits very little empathy towards others. Which son do you think I am very concerned about? I look forward to this program being taught in schools.