Harvard vs. Williams (Tyng Scholarship) vs. Yale vs. Washington and Lee (Johnson Scholarship)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Choose Yale.

-Harvard grad

I'm the PP who said she knew several people at Harvard. And this ^^^ is exactly what I suspect each of them would say.

The overwhelming sense I've gotten from 4 people I knew who were Harvard undergrads is that they felt lonely there. Not a lot of support for undergrads, not much community among the students. I could be totally wrong, but that's the sense I've gotten. My sample size is small, but it's striking to me that they all give off a similar vibe about the place.

Like I said, I also know several people who went to grad school there (public policy, public health, political science, law school). All loved it.

What is the point in posting this twice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My opinion, FWIW:

I see some misinformation in these pros and cons. Williams has a top-notch student body and faculty and doesn't suffer from lack of resources. For a student who plans to go to grad school, "not well known to the general public" is immaterial. Williams is extremely well-known by grad programs nationwide. And the notion that Yale doesn't have as strong a name brand as Harvard is, well, crazy.

I think the Harvard experience is materially different from that of Williams and W&L, and not in a good way. Personally, I know several people who went to Harvard undergrad and none of them loved it; few of them even liked it all that much. (By contrast, I also know several people who went to Harvard for grad school, and all speak well of the experience.) I wouldn't encourage one of my kids to go there for undergrad. Given a choice between Yale and Harvard for undergrad, I think Yale wins every day and twice on Sunday.

Just reading the words written above and taking them at face value, it sounds like the student wants to go to Williams or Yale and that Harvard is still on the list because it's Harvard and W&L is still on the list because it's a free ride. I've said what I think about Harvard. Regarding W&L, I don't think free ride is enough to overcome the fact that it isn't a good cultural fit at all. I'd take it off the table.

So I'd narrow it down to Yale and Williams and then I'd make the decision based on whether student prefers rural SLAC or larger, urban environment. The rest are distinctions without differences.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. You hit the nail on the head, basically. His top choices are W and Y. He perceives H to have a bigger name brand to the general public, but he knows Y is right up there. He's keeping the Johnson scholarship under consideration because it is an unbeatable package, and he's still not sure if paying 40K more against one of the best LACs in the country is worth the economic cost. What he means by the comment about Williams is that the brightest students in the country are generally not going to the LACs but rather the Ivies. He knows that the average W student is as intelligent as the average H/Y student, but the top universities attract the future Nobel prize winners/politicians/etc, have Nobel laureate faculty, etc. He feels that there will be a difference in the connections he makes, and if he wants to switch from graduate school, Williams could hurt him.

He wonders if the concerns about Harvard U not being great are over-exaggerated by people who don't attend the school, because according to cross-admit battles, Harvard wins against Yale 62% to 38%. Do you think there's a reason for this? Is there something H has that Y does not?

He wasn't turned off by William's rural nature and loved the community there more than any other school he visited, but he'd prefer access to a city if possible. Not a big deal breaker, but he thinks it'd be nice to get out of campus too.

I think the reason H wins is because other students think like he does--that Harvard conveys some advantage and so they choose it. That doesn't mean that Harvard does actually convey an advantage. It is perception, but not necessarily reality.

I think the reality is that there are no bad choices here. He shouldn't choose Harvard just because he thinks he "should" when the alternatives are Yale and Williams.

Regarding $40k--I think that's a pittance for a college education, but it really matters what you/he think. Is this money available? How will it be paid?

[Anonymous]

Sounds like in his heart he really likes Williams and Yale which makes it easy, Yale.

And New Haven isn't the pit it used to be. Very yuppified around campus now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Choose Yale.

-Harvard grad

I'm the PP who said she knew several people at Harvard. And this ^^^ is exactly what I suspect each of them would say.

The overwhelming sense I've gotten from 4 people I knew who were Harvard undergrads is that they felt lonely there. Not a lot of support for undergrads, not much community among the students. I could be totally wrong, but that's the sense I've gotten. My sample size is small, but it's striking to me that they all give off a similar vibe about the place.

Like I said, I also know several people who went to grad school there (public policy, public health, political science, law school). All loved it.

What is the point in posting this twice?

OP asked me at 21:45.

[Anonymous]

DD had to choose between Harvard and Yale; she chose Yale, primarily because of the residential colleges. She's loved every minute of it. Choose Yale.

[Anonymous]

Yale or Harvard, if my child were in the same situation.

However. Is this 9 or 10K a year for 4 years, or 9 or 10K this year and then you're on the hook for the next three years?
BUYER BEWARE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yale or Harvard, if my child were in the same situation.

However. Is this 9 or 10K a year for 4 years, or 9 or 10K this year and then you're on the hook for the next three years?
BUYER BEWARE.

All 4 of these schools pledge to meet 100% of a student's financial need. Assuming the family's financial situation remains materially the same, the level of financial support should remain the same for all 4 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Blessed to have some great options and deciding which would be best for a student who wants to eventually attend graduate school in economics. Here are some pros and cons of each.

Writing as a Williams undergrad, Harvard econ grad: It depends on specifically what "student who wants to eventually attend graduate school in economics" means. Obviously the student is whip-smart, but is this someone who's say, taken AP Econ and done a bunch of reading, or someone who's worked through intermediate econ textbooks in his/her spare time? For the bulk of students, I'd suggest Williams, as the access to undergrad teaching will be much stronger - plus the huge benefits of the Tyng. It would also be better for the typical 18 year old who is somewhat likely to switch fields.

The only reason I'd suggest Harvard is for students who come out of high school effectively having done half of a major already. For those types, the ability to take grad level courses as a junior or senior might be beneficial. But remember you'll be one of a cast of thousands. One econ prof used to leave our 25-person grad course and go directly to his 1000-person intro lecture course and said something like, "Ah, off to see the hordes of smiling faces."

Also read this: http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/05/advice-for-aspiring-economists.html

[Anonymous]

The Greek scene at W&L is weird. I found that because so many students do it, it becomes less of a big deal, compared to bigger schools where 20-20% of student body does it, therefore those students then become more elitist and fratty. Because so many students go Greek, it just becomes less of a deal if that makes sense.

While I was a student, I didn't realize the econ department was a big deal, but many of my classmates and other alumni have gone on to do really great things.

Thanks for the insights. That's an interesting perspective we hadn't considered. If everyone is in greek life, then it wouldn't divide the student body as much. How was the W&L experience for you?

Does he like or play sports? 1/2 of the Williams students are on a sports teams since it's dIv 3. There are no club sports.

Yes, he is quite athletic and likes the athletic emphasis of Williams.

Regarding $40k--I think that's a pittance for a college education, but it really matters what you/he think. Is this money available? How will it be paid?

We can finance it. We were surprised it wasn't more, actually.

Is this 9 or 10K a year for 4 years, or 9 or 10K this year and then you're on the hook for the next three years?

Costs per year will likely increase by 1-2K. So it's about 45K more for H/Y than W&L over four years.

Writing as a Williams undergrad, Harvard econ grad: It depends on specifically what "student who wants to eventually attend graduate school in economics" means. Obviously the student is whip-smart, but is this someone who's say, taken AP Econ and done a bunch of reading, or someone who's worked through intermediate econ textbooks in his/her spare time? For the bulk of students, I'd suggest Williams, as the access to undergrad teaching will be much stronger - plus the huge benefits of the Tyng. It would also be better for the typical 18 year old who is somewhat likely to switch fields.

Your insights are valuable. He took AP Macro and Micro in 10th grade with 5's on both, and is taking Macro Theory and Micro Theory at a nearby college. All that aside, there are still plenty of courses at the LACs (especially math, which as the link points out is critical for a PhD in economics) he could take. He finds the appeal of taking graduate level courses pretty powerful. Is it readily available for undergraduates? How well do you think Williams prepared you for your PhD, and how have the outcomes been for others you know? We're seeing a lot of alumni at HYS, so we're pretty impressed with the outcomes. But we don't know what the competition is looking like at this day and time.

[Anonymous]

Seems like being promised something productive to do every summer should not be overlooked/sneezed at. If he preferred Yale it might not be enough to justify going to Williams but if he actually prefers Williams and is just worried about perception or that people won't be up to his standards then neither seems like a great reason not to go to Williams with that benefit. Don't go to Harvard for the name-- the cohort is smart but the undergrad experience is not as good as the name.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems like being promised something productive to do every summer should not be overlooked/sneezed at. If he preferred Yale it might not be enough to justify going to Williams but if he actually prefers Williams and is just worried about perception or that people won't be up to his standards then neither seems like a great reason not to go to Williams with that benefit. Don't go to Harvard for the name-- the cohort is smart but the undergrad experience is not as good as the name.

Very true. Not to put too much stock in rankings, but consistency over time may be meaningful. Williams consistently ranks as the number one SLAC in the country. Yale is usually first or second among universities (sometimes tied with Princeton). Significantly Y &P are first-rate graduate research universities where the undergrad colleges have pride of place. Harvard is up there, but not usually in the top slots, because of the undergrad teaching experience and the dominance of the graduate schools.

[Anonymous]

Yale. I know tons of people who graduated from
both Harvard and Yale. The Yalies universally seem happier with their time at college. The Harvard ones are like "it was ok."

If the kid is coming from a not great high school, I would also consider Williams because that will
Probably provide a better, more nurturing education.

[Anonymous]

I know many Harvard graduates. Very few of them "loved" their experience.

[Anonymous]

His ability to not only get accepted into these four schools but to win those scholarships at Williams and W&L says one thing: this kid is a high performing kid. And he's athletic too.

I would not be worried about being surrounded by other high performing people. He will probably thrive off of it. As a graduate from another sought after college, the notions of "intensity" is something I've always found peculiar for while some students were certainly intensely committed to the A-track or their courses, most were laid back and friendly (and still high performing). So don't worry too much about the campus vibes from that angle.

Williams and W&L are both excellent, wonderful colleges and I have always held Williams in high regards because many of my father's close friends went there (graduates from the 1960s), and they are stellar men who went on to top ranked graduate schools and had successful, productive and active lives. However, and I will concede this point, both W&L and Williams will have a more clubby environment that someone who is not from the cloistered world of the affluent upper middle classes might find off-putting or isolating. He will probably be more comfortable at either Harvard or Yale, who have greater diversity of backgrounds in their student body. This is not to say he won't find his niche at Williams or W&L but some people do struggle with being surrounded by a preponderance of visibly affluent students.

Based on everything I've read on here I would quietly nudge him towards Yale. Great college house system, plenty of intramural sports, very bright students, close interaction with the faculty, the name opens just as many doors as Harvard and the resources are just as good, and it's more urban and New York is not far away.

Is it not possible to do a quick overnight visit to both Williams and Yale? And Harvard, too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:His ability to not only get accepted into these four schools but to win those scholarships at Williams and W&L says one thing: this kid is a high performing kid. And he's athletic too.

I would not be worried about being surrounded by other high performing people. He will probably thrive off of it. As a graduate from another sought after college, the notions of "intensity" is something I've always found peculiar for while some students were certainly intensely committed to the A-track or their courses, most were laid back and friendly (and still high performing). So don't worry too much about the campus vibes from that angle.

Williams and W&L are both excellent, wonderful colleges and I have always held Williams in high regards because many of my father's close friends went there (graduates from the 1960s), and they are stellar men who went on to top ranked graduate schools and had successful, productive and active lives. However, and I will concede this point, both W&L and Williams will have a more clubby environment that someone who is not from the cloistered world of the affluent upper middle classes might find off-putting or isolating. He will probably be more comfortable at either Harvard or Yale, who have greater diversity of backgrounds in their student body. This is not to say he won't find his niche at Williams or W&L but some people do struggle with being surrounded by a preponderance of visibly affluent students.

Based on everything I've read on here I would quietly nudge him towards Yale. Great college house system, plenty of intramural sports, very bright students, close interaction with the faculty, the name opens just as many doors as Harvard and the resources are just as good, and it's more urban and New York is not far away.

Is it not possible to do a quick overnight visit to both Williams and Yale? And Harvard, too?

Thanks for the detailed comment. You're absolutely correct that Yale and Harvard will give him a huge diversity of students to interact with, whereas Williams and W&L are much smaller and more isolated. His end goal is hopefully an economics PhD, but he is flexible to change and he wants to get the best undergraduate experience possible. He's an intellectually motivated kid who'll be making the most of his core requirements- not as something to check of, but something to gain a broader perspective. In that sense, he likes how liberal arts Yale, W&L, and Williams are; he worries there may be a divide or stigma against liberal arts focused students at Harvard.

With everything as of now, he is leaning towards Yale. He'll absolutely do an overnight, however. He has a close friend now at Harvard who also was deciding between H and Y, and eventually picked H because he felt that the opportunities there were more plentiful. His comment was that H has dramatically increased their focus on undergraduates in these last few years and has established the faculty links and intimacy that Y and P are known for. We'll see if these sentiments are true upon an overnight visit. He already visited W&L since he was a candidate for the scholarship, but he's pretty sure he's crossing it out at this point due to a poor fit.

The Tyng Scholarship is appealing because that's 20K in funding that he won't have to work to get at H/Y. He has spoken to Williams people on the FB page and many of them do research at major U's at the summer to get both the liberal arts environment with world class research opportunities. There is a great alumni network there and at all the best graduate schools will constantly provide Williams students with opportunities. But he also knows that H and Y have funding for nearly everything, including some things Williams won't fund, like summer international experiences. He will inquire with students to see how easy it is to get opportunities, so there may not be a huge difference in what Williams guarantees to offer and what H/Y offer on average to their students. One thing that he found interesting is this website: http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/ Williams spends a respectable $270,253 on educational spending for each degree, but Yale is spending a whopping $556,675 and Harvard $381,077, suggesting that the experience he may be getting at H and Y may be more valuable.