Harvard vs. Williams (Tyng Scholarship) vs. Yale vs. Washington and Lee (Johnson Scholarship)

[Anonymous]

Williams for undergrad. Harvard for grad school.

Here's why:

Your kid liked Williamstown. Huge plus. I went to Williams and loved it. But you're right -- Williamstown is a small (but gorgeous) place. I studied at Oxford through the Williams-Exeter program my junior year. I took the same tutorials that Oxford students did. It was an incredible experience. (Incidentally, one of my close friends got a Rhodes and headed back to a different college after we graduated). And you are getting some scholarship money, to boot.

Then Harvard.

But before all of this, pat yourself and your kid on the back for having such amazing options. Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

Harvard grad here -- House system at Harvard gives similar benefits to residential colleges at Yale, also very active intramurals, club sports. Given what you've said about his econ background & wanting grad level classes, seems to me he is well positioned to take full advantage of the incredible access and opportunities there. I think it can be a challenging environment for students who come in without strong direction and focus, but for your son it sounds like he'd hit the ground running. As someone who also received a lot of financial aid at Harvard, I also agree with the PP who said your son may be more comfortable with the wide range of econ diversity at Harvard (or Yale). All your son's choices are fantastic, but given all you've shared about him, and uncertain choices later for grad school, I think def go with Harvard (or . . . . . . Yale)

[Anonymous]

My DH was an economics major at Williams, and went on to grad school for economics at Oxford. He absolutely loved Williams, and would make the same choice again today. He loved the intimate setting, the small class sizes, and the great relationships he developed with his professors. It prepared him well for an exceedingly rigorous experience at Oxford (which he also loved). He has found the Williams alumni network to be strong. DH wasn't from the elite New England prep school set (which sent lots of kids to Williams), but he had no problem fitting in.

Consider Williams very carefully if your DS really is focused on a strong undergraduate teaching experience. He won't get that at Harvard. I don't know enough about Yale to know, one way or the other.

Your DS really can't go wrong with his decision. The schools are all so good that he should follow his heart (and it sounds like that will lead him to Yale or Williams). Congratulations to him!

[Anonymous]

Yale, no brainer. The name diff b/t H and Y is nominal, at most, and the fact he wants Y or W means he will vastly prefer Y, seriously. New Haven is also nowhere near as bad as this implies and Y has a way better UG campus life.

-- Grad of both (one for LS)

[Anonymous]

The fact that this is even a question suggests you shouldn't choose Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Can I ask how your child knows he wants to go to Econ graduate school?

Economics grad school is very different from, say, AP Economics --which I assume is what your child has taken-- or intro Econ in a college (which he may have taken) and math would actually be a better undergrad major (or Economics with a heavy emphasis on math).

(I went to Econ grad school, if it helps here.)

[Anonymous]

I would choose based on overnight visits. At this point the choice should be about things like fit, happiness, weather, location, feel, and social dynamics. These hugely influence the day to day experience. Any of the schools will work academically and this kid is going to be fine anywhere.

I did "pre-frosh" weekend at Harvard and decided to go elsewhere. I realized the social fit wasn't what I wanted out of college. But I couldn't have made that decision without the benefit of the visit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Choose Yale.

-Harvard grad

+1

-Another Harvard grad

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The Tyng Scholarship is appealing because that's 20K in funding that he won't have to work to get at H/Y. He has spoken to Williams people on the FB page and many of them do research at major U's at the summer to get both the liberal arts environment with world class research opportunities. There is a great alumni network there and at all the best graduate schools will constantly provide Williams students with opportunities. But he also knows that H and Y have funding for nearly everything, including some things Williams won't fund, like summer international experiences. He will inquire with students to see how easy it is to get opportunities, so there may not be a huge difference in what Williams guarantees to offer and what H/Y offer on average to their students. One thing that he found interesting is this website: http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/ Williams spends a respectable $270,253 on educational spending for each degree, but Yale is spending a whopping $556,675 and Harvard $381,077, suggesting that the experience he may be getting at H and Y may be more valuable.

I'm not going to deny that Harvard has a ton of money to spend, but to look at that stat and assume it means the educational experience is more valuable suggests to me everything that is wrong about economics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The Tyng Scholarship is appealing because that's 20K in funding that he won't have to work to get at H/Y. He has spoken to Williams people on the FB page and many of them do research at major U's at the summer to get both the liberal arts environment with world class research opportunities. There is a great alumni network there and at all the best graduate schools will constantly provide Williams students with opportunities. But he also knows that H and Y have funding for nearly everything, including some things Williams won't fund, like summer international experiences. He will inquire with students to see how easy it is to get opportunities, so there may not be a huge difference in what Williams guarantees to offer and what H/Y offer on average to their students. One thing that he found interesting is this website: http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/ Williams spends a respectable $270,253 on educational spending for each degree, but Yale is spending a whopping $556,675 and Harvard $381,077, suggesting that the experience he may be getting at H and Y may be more valuable.

No, no, no. Please carefully consider the source of that data:

http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/about/

Expenditure categories are slightly different depending on whether the institution is public, private non-profit, or private for-profit. The spending types considered to be educational in nature, either directly or indirectly, are: instruction, student services, academic support, institutional support, operations, and maintenance. Because separate spending figures are not available for only undergraduate students, the measure includes graduate degrees, post-master’s certificates, and all doctorates.

Harvard and Yale's spending per degree includes what they spend on grad students as well as undergrads. (Williams to my knowledge has no graduate programs, so their spending is for undergrads only.) And that amount of money includes what schools spend on institutional support, operations, and maintenance. Institutional support includes expenses for day-to-day operational support, including:

general administrative services, central executive-level activities concerned with management and long range planning, legal and fiscal operations, space management, employee personnel and records, logistical services such as purchasing and printing, and public relations and development. Also includes information technology expenses related to institutional support activities. If an institution does not separately budget and expense information technology resources, the IT costs associated with student services and operation and maintenance of plant will also be applied to this function.

https://surveys.nces.ed.gov/ipeds/VisGlossaryPopup.aspx?idlink=325

Many of these things have absolutely nothing to do with the undergraduate experience. A lot of this spending is for research functions that most undergrads will never get close to. The spending includes what the schools spend on law students and MBA students and possibly even medical students. (Depends on how the med school is structured within the university.) And note, too, that the operational expenses in, say, Boston, will be higher than those in, say, Williamstown, MA. This statistic just isn't specific enough to tell you much. It is not a measure that you can use to distinguish between these 3 schools.

What you can know is that, among the almost 300 colleges included in these data, Yale, Harvard, and Williams are in the top 4% of spending per degree. Whatever they are spending and however they are doing it, it dwarfs what most colleges are spending. Wherever this student goes, he can be assured he is getting a lot for his money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:His ability to not only get accepted into these four schools but to win those scholarships at Williams and W&L says one thing: this kid is a high performing kid. And he's athletic too.

I would not be worried about being surrounded by other high performing people. He will probably thrive off of it. As a graduate from another sought after college, the notions of "intensity" is something I've always found peculiar for while some students were certainly intensely committed to the A-track or their courses, most were laid back and friendly (and still high performing). So don't worry too much about the campus vibes from that angle.

Williams and W&L are both excellent, wonderful colleges and I have always held Williams in high regards because many of my father's close friends went there (graduates from the 1960s), and they are stellar men who went on to top ranked graduate schools and had successful, productive and active lives. However, and I will concede this point, both W&L and Williams will have a more clubby environment that someone who is not from the cloistered world of the affluent upper middle classes might find off-putting or isolating. He will probably be more comfortable at either Harvard or Yale, who have greater diversity of backgrounds in their student body. This is not to say he won't find his niche at Williams or W&L but some people do struggle with being surrounded by a preponderance of visibly affluent students.

Based on everything I've read on here I would quietly nudge him towards Yale. Great college house system, plenty of intramural sports, very bright students, close interaction with the faculty, the name opens just as many doors as Harvard and the resources are just as good, and it's more urban and New York is not far away.

Is it not possible to do a quick overnight visit to both Williams and Yale? And Harvard, too?

Thanks for the detailed comment. You're absolutely correct that Yale and Harvard will give him a huge diversity of students to interact with, whereas Williams and W&L are much smaller and more isolated. His end goal is hopefully an economics PhD, but he is flexible to change and he wants to get the best undergraduate experience possible. He's an intellectually motivated kid who'll be making the most of his core requirements- not as something to check of, but something to gain a broader perspective. In that sense, he likes how liberal arts Yale, W&L, and Williams are; he worries there may be a divide or stigma against liberal arts focused students at Harvard.

With everything as of now, he is leaning towards Yale. He'll absolutely do an overnight, however. He has a close friend now at Harvard who also was deciding between H and Y, and eventually picked H because he felt that the opportunities there were more plentiful. His comment was that H has dramatically increased their focus on undergraduates in these last few years and has established the faculty links and intimacy that Y and P are known for. We'll see if these sentiments are true upon an overnight visit. He already visited W&L since he was a candidate for the scholarship, but he's pretty sure he's crossing it out at this point due to a poor fit.

The Tyng Scholarship is appealing because that's 20K in funding that he won't have to work to get at H/Y. He has spoken to Williams people on the FB page and many of them do research at major U's at the summer to get both the liberal arts environment with world class research opportunities. There is a great alumni network there and at all the best graduate schools will constantly provide Williams students with opportunities. But he also knows that H and Y have funding for nearly everything, including some things Williams won't fund, like summer international experiences. He will inquire with students to see how easy it is to get opportunities, so there may not be a huge difference in what Williams guarantees to offer and what H/Y offer on average to their students. One thing that he found interesting is this website: http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/ Williams spends a respectable $270,253 on educational spending for each degree, but Yale is spending a whopping $556,675 and Harvard $381,077, suggesting that the experience he may be getting at H and Y may be more valuable.

I would think that number has much more to do with the number of buildings on campus than anything to do with what he'll experience as an undergrad.

My sib went to Yale. My perception is that it's more progressive overall than Williams. The gay community was much larger (obviously more students overall, too) and more vibrant, and the overall feel more politically engaged.

[Anonymous]

Op can I ask what your HHI is? Just trying to figure out what to expect in terms of aid from these type of schools.

[Anonymous]

I honestly believe all those bashing Harvard have some kind of bizarre grudge, its making my head spin.

I have a very close friend who had the most marvelous time at Harvard, as did her sister. They both got in ED with double legacies and they are both hugely successful in their professional fields.

Having said that, your son sounds like he's leaning for Yale, which is where I would have gone, if I hadn't gone to Europe.

[Anonymous]

Many years ago, I chose an in-state well-regarded public university because I received a prestigious full ride scholarship over HYP (accepted at all, no financial aid). It would have been a struggle for my parents to send me to HYPS and pay for my siblings as well. I was happy there and went to HYPS for an advanced degree. That said, it is so hard to get into these schools now, and you just can't be sure it will happen again for grad school. And I do think it makes a difference for the rest of your life to have that name recognition behind you. So I would lean towards Yale, given all the other details you mentioned -- name recognition, fantastic school, and an otherwise good fit.

[Anonymous]

FWIW there was a recent College Confidential thread about a certain economics class at Harvard that gave some really interesting and different perspectives.