New puppy/dog owner- training question...e-collar and prong collars?

[Anonymous]

What is your puppy doing that you don't like?

Go to a training class. Be firm and consistent in your training, but don't be overly harsh. It has long term consequences.

good luck!

[Anonymous]

I'm a dog trainer who uses primarily positive reinforcement. If I do decide to use a prong collar- which is rare- it's only after I have tried more humane methods without success, assessed the dog to make sure it can handle a prong collar, and spoken with the owners extensively.

Keep in mind that prong/e collar/choke chain training was developed for military and police dogs who were bred to be very resilient. The average housedog often can't handle it. I specialize in dogs with extreme anxiety and aggression, and I see tons of dogs who developed these problems because of prong/e collar use. One of the saddest cases was a sweet dog who was in developed constant terror after a board & train where the trainer used all e collar training. The poor dog was such a mess afterwards that he had to be euthanized because of his quality of life. He wasn't aggressive, but lived in constant terror.

The most important thing is to find a trainer who is skilled and knowledgeable. Most trainers aren't. Many of the larger companies hire people with no experience, give them a few hours of instruction, then let them train dogs (unskilled workers are a lot cheaper than seasoned trainers. They can pay them $12/hour rather than the $60-100/hour real trainers get). Neither a collar nor treats will work in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing. I recommend thougouhly interviewing all candidates, sitting in on classes, seeing their facilities, asking for references, etc.

[Anonymous]

Is it a golden retriever? I found mine was not easy to train as he pulled all over the place. Puppy class was time for him to go nuts, he would do quickly what instructor asked and then start trying to pull to other people for frenzy cuddling session! Quite frankly, trainer had no idea what to do with him, highly recommended trainer too! Once he was older, we used prong collar for walks, and it helped a lot. Trainer actually put my dog out to train one on one with another dog outside, away from her class. She was all, no this collar, not that collar, and I said here you do it, and she couldn't!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it a golden retriever? I found mine was not easy to train as he pulled all over the place. Puppy class was time for him to go nuts, he would do quickly what instructor asked and then start trying to pull to other people for frenzy cuddling session! Quite frankly, trainer had no idea what to do with him, highly recommended trainer too! Once he was older, we used prong collar for walks, and it helped a lot. Trainer actually put my dog out to train one on one with another dog outside, away from her class. She was all, no this collar, not that collar, and I said here you do it, and she couldn't!

Did you try an Easy Walk harness, or a Gentle Leader head halter (with lots of patience)? I can't believe you use a prong collar on a Golden Retriever!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it a golden retriever? I found mine was not easy to train as he pulled all over the place. Puppy class was time for him to go nuts, he would do quickly what instructor asked and then start trying to pull to other people for frenzy cuddling session! Quite frankly, trainer had no idea what to do with him, highly recommended trainer too! Once he was older, we used prong collar for walks, and it helped a lot. Trainer actually put my dog out to train one on one with another dog outside, away from her class. She was all, no this collar, not that collar, and I said here you do it, and she couldn't!

Did you try an Easy Walk harness, or a Gentle Leader head halter (with lots of patience)? I can't believe you use a prong collar on a Golden Retriever!

Yes, I tried them, Gentle Leader made him so irritated he was just rubbing and rubbing, Harness caused him chafing and then huge infection when he kept biting and licking the spot. Prong collars are used in Germany and I ever read about the studies carried out throughout the life time of dogs, that there is no evidence they cause any neck trauma. You have to know how to use it. I knew it wasn't hurting my dog whatsoever, and he was pulling even with it like nuts. I didn't use it at all when he was a puppy, at all. I used it for a short period of time. We are talking powerful frenzied male golden, at the time he was almost 80lbs. (As a side note, he is now 69 lbs, with a lot of work.) You do not pull and correct non stop, just if really needed. I trained my dog, who was my first dog after instructor failed utterly. With a very loose regular collar now, he is the best behaved dog of any we encounter. This dog is from a pure hunting dog line and his sire is enormous active white/golden retriever. So, judge all you want, but when he was a year old, and so nuts, I had to control him and make sure he never caused anybody harm, because he loved to run to people if he could. Some dogs have very high threshold for correction and that was my dog when younger. Imagine if I let that 80lbs basically puppy ran to kids playing outside? All he wants is a cuddle, but injuries are bound to happen. It would have been way more damaging using a regular collar as I would have to jerk him all the time. So, please educated yourself first. Obviously you don't want prong collar right off the bat. We used it only for walks and corrected only when need. Much better than what I see on the streets with dogs on a regular least, hurling themselves up in the air when on a walk and being brought down over and over and over again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for your response. How do reinforce "no" when the pup does something undesirable?

The same way you would with a toddler: say "no" and remove/redirect the puppy from the situation/item. Repeat as necessary, and reward puppy for doing what you DO want it to do (hang out calmly in its bed/crate, play with its own toys, etc.).

In general, you will need to completely ignore the attention-seeking behaviors you DON'T want (e.g., jumping up, barking), and lavishly reward those you DO want (sitting, going to a designated spot). Even negative attention/scolding is attention for the puppy and at best, will simply continue the behavior...at worst, you'll create fear responses and damage your ability to effectively train and communicate with the dog going forward.

Seek out trainers with CPDT or LPDT-KPA certifications who are "fear-free"/"force-free". E-collar trainers are a scam (looking at you, Offleash K9) and should be avoided at all costs.

+1 Negative reinforcement is easier for humans but it simply doesn't work long-term. (At least not if you want a happy, confident dog.)

Why is it a scam? Why don't you like Offleash K9?
I was thinking of using them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for your response. How do reinforce "no" when the pup does something undesirable?

The same way you would with a toddler: say "no" and remove/redirect the puppy from the situation/item. Repeat as necessary, and reward puppy for doing what you DO want it to do (hang out calmly in its bed/crate, play with its own toys, etc.).

In general, you will need to completely ignore the attention-seeking behaviors you DON'T want (e.g., jumping up, barking), and lavishly reward those you DO want (sitting, going to a designated spot). Even negative attention/scolding is attention for the puppy and at best, will simply continue the behavior...at worst, you'll create fear responses and damage your ability to effectively train and communicate with the dog going forward.

Seek out trainers with CPDT or LPDT-KPA certifications who are "fear-free"/"force-free". E-collar trainers are a scam (looking at you, Offleash K9) and should be avoided at all costs.

+1 Negative reinforcement is easier for humans but it simply doesn't work long-term. (At least not if you want a happy, confident dog.)

Why is it a scam? Why don't you like Offleash K9?
I was thinking of using them.

It's basically a franchise and they train their own trainers (no independent oversight or certification, no industry best practices like Karen Pryor Academy or similar), and they only use shock collars (they'll say it's "in combination" with other methods but I've never heard anyone not be told to use it). As another PP mentioned above, shock collars were created for long-range situations like hunting or combat, not your average suburban puppy . Plus, if you think about it, 99.9% of the DMV has leash laws - don't be that a-hole with your dog on a shock collar only. Finally, you are just way more likely to damage your dog, physically AND mentally, training with aversive methods like shock and prong collars.

[Anonymous]

I also used a prong collar on our Golden Retriever for years with no problems.

He is a wonderful pet and was easy to train for sit, stay, and come but pulled hard on the leash on his walks and by the time he was 18 months old he was 75 pounds. I tried other things, such as Gentle Leader, but the prong collar is what really helped. You just have to be careful not to jerk on it.

We stopped using it when he was around 6 years old and calmer on walks. I adore this dog and would never hurt him but I did not see using the prong collar as cruel, just useful.

[Anonymous]

The prong collar became necessary when we had a puppy that weighed 80 plus pounds. After two weeks of daily training we were able to go back to the chain collar and a month later, leather. He sits, stays and doesn't pull on the leash. Dog training is not for sissies but if you don't do it you'll probably end up surrendering your big dog or unable to take him out in public, and THAT's abusive.
Also, be sure to expose your puppy, whether small or large, to lots of handling by small children and strange adults. Dogs are territorial by nature and this must be trained out in puppyhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a dog trainer who uses primarily positive reinforcement. If I do decide to use a prong collar- which is rare- it's only after I have tried more humane methods without success, assessed the dog to make sure it can handle a prong collar, and spoken with the owners extensively.

Keep in mind that prong/e collar/choke chain training was developed for military and police dogs who were bred to be very resilient. The average housedog often can't handle it. I specialize in dogs with extreme anxiety and aggression, and I see tons of dogs who developed these problems because of prong/e collar use. One of the saddest cases was a sweet dog who was in developed constant terror after a board & train where the trainer used all e collar training. The poor dog was such a mess afterwards that he had to be euthanized because of his quality of life. He wasn't aggressive, but lived in constant terror.

The most important thing is to find a trainer who is skilled and knowledgeable. Most trainers aren't. Many of the larger companies hire people with no experience, give them a few hours of instruction, then let them train dogs (unskilled workers are a lot cheaper than seasoned trainers. They can pay them $12/hour rather than the $60-100/hour real trainers get). Neither a collar nor treats will work in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing. I recommend thougouhly interviewing all candidates, sitting in on classes, seeing their facilities, asking for references, etc.

We had a Newfoundland/lab mix who would pull us off our feet. He didn't seem to even feel the regular chain. Two weeks of prong collar on daily walks stopped this behavior. Not everyone can afford or wants to hire a professional trainer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The prong collar became necessary when we had a puppy that weighed 80 plus pounds. After two weeks of daily training we were able to go back to the chain collar and a month later, leather. He sits, stays and doesn't pull on the leash. Dog training is not for sissies but if you don't do it you'll probably end up surrendering your big dog or unable to take him out in public, and THAT's abusive.
Also, be sure to exposer puppy, whether small or large, to lots of handling by small children and strange adults. Dogs are territorial by nature and this must be trained out in puppyhood.

Well, when puppy reaches 80lb and you still have issues with walking on loose leash - you missed something early on. Start working on basic obedience when your puppy 8 weeks old, and by the time she's strong enough to pull you - you'll be good.
Same for socialization - get your dog out as early as you can (after first couple rounds of shots - check with your vet), train him to ignore distractions, and meet other people or dogs properly (no jumping!).

[Anonymous]

I think people need to educate themselves about prong collars. They are not the same as choke collars or shock collars. The nose/head collars are much worse and more abusive than the prong collar. Prong collars look like torture tools, but are blunt and do not cause damage to the dog, as proven by studies. People need to learn that dog is not a human baby, those who mistake them for human babies are people who cause most dog problem behaviors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The prong collar became necessary when we had a puppy that weighed 80 plus pounds. After two weeks of daily training we were able to go back to the chain collar and a month later, leather. He sits, stays and doesn't pull on the leash. Dog training is not for sissies but if you don't do it you'll probably end up surrendering your big dog or unable to take him out in public, and THAT's abusive.
Also, be sure to exposer puppy, whether small or large, to lots of handling by small children and strange adults. Dogs are territorial by nature and this must be trained out in puppyhood.

Well, when puppy reaches 80lb and you still have issues with walking on loose leash - you missed something early on. Start working on basic obedience when your puppy 8 weeks old, and by the time she's strong enough to pull you - you'll be good.
Same for socialization - get your dog out as early as you can (after first couple rounds of shots - check with your vet), train him to ignore distractions, and meet other people or dogs properly (no jumping!).

NP. Wow, aren't you just know it all busy body! We did all of that with our puppy, and yet he still ran to people like nuts when seeing people. We corrected, we took him to a trainer that was highly recommended in a group setting and she had no idea what to do with my high energy/social puppy. We missed nothing, we rewarded, he couldn't care less for hot dogs and treats or any food. It took years to train him. What pray should I have done to a puppy like that? Should I have been punitive and abusive to some level to exuberant hyper ball of joy?

[Anonymous]

I'm not trying to rationalize but the e-collar is basically the same method as electric fence training. You just give a little shock so they learn not to continue bad behaviors.

[Anonymous]

Prong/pinch collars have their place, and you need to know how and when to use them. I've had Rottweilers all my life, and have always used them. But they are not for puppies, nor should you go around snatching at the lead when they are wearing them. Rotties are big dogs with thickly muscled necks, it's not quite like using one on a toy poodle.