So much time spent disciplining kids in K

[Anonymous]

My kid told me about misbehaving classmates all the time in PK but not at all now in K. Not sure what to attribute to different school and what to attribute to it no longer being that interesting for her to report.

[Anonymous]

OP, if you haven't already spoken to your child's teacher you really should. While it is fairly common for a whole class to miss out on an opportunity because a number of students didn't get in line, what is NOT common and should not happen is that the whole class misses out frequently. If your student is coming home all year talking about what the class didn't get to do, sometimes it's a legit consequence, but more often it's a teacher who has run out of strategies for trying to control behavior and is just defaulting to "Ok, you didn't get in line, so now the whole class misses this."

If your child is talking about it over and over, it's obviously not working to change the behavior of the students who are causing the disruptions, so my question to the teacher as a parent would be "What is going on? How many kids are usually causing a ruckus and is it usually the same kids? What do you do/how do you handle it? At what point do you try something different with those kids, instead of just keeping the whole class from these activities?"

Not in an angry way, but in a questioning way, because it's a very legitimate concern to be worried about your child and most of the class missing out repeatedly because of a small number of kids' behavior. Also, I'd ask the Principal the same questions, what is his/her expectations of how a K teacher handles this? What other options are there than keeping the class from X activity?

These are totally appropriate questions for a concerned parent to ask. I understand bringing it up on DCUM, but the only way to find out if your particular child's teacher is doing somethign that makes sense or something that is not improving the situation and also having most kids miss out with no benefit is for you to talk to your teacher and the Administration at your school.

Good luck, hope you report back if you do talk to them. A lot of teachers are overwhelmed and just keep doing the same thing without making any progress. That only changes when someone starts asking questions or pointing it out and asking what else can be tried.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here: I just think that the whole classroom being punished is ridiculous. Does this problem go away in private school?

I think you coming to that conclusion without having a conversation with your child's teacher is ridiculous.

Whether what the teacher is doing makes sense or not all depends on how many kids in the class are acting up and what the teacher is doing to prevent it/address it. Most likely it is the teacher's inability to manage behaviors effectively, but there is also such a thing as too many challenging kids for one teacher to manage effectively - even a good teacher. You haven't said anything here to indicate you've asked the teacher about the situation, which means you don't really know what is going on beyond what your child is reporting. You're already asking about private school for this reason without actually engaging anyone at the school about this specific challenge? I call that ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I don't think this is a low or high SES issue. My kid is a Janney and the K teacher has her hands full with active kids that are learning the rules (raising hands, not shouting, etc etc).

I think part of the problem is that there's so much instruction time where kids are supposed to sit there quietly while the teacher talks. yes, that's something they need to learn. But the teachers would have to discipline less if they weren't creating environments were kids had to be quiet.

+100. Friends with kids in private school talk about more recess time, art and PE, drama lessons and more active learning all around than my kid gets in a strong WotP DCPS program. In MHO, DCPS has become so obsessed with meeting Common Core assessment benchmarks that teachers come under heavy pressure to tend to lose the forest for the trees in K, and in general.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I don't think this is a low or high SES issue. My kid is a Janney and the K teacher has her hands full with active kids that are learning the rules (raising hands, not shouting, etc etc).

I think part of the problem is that there's so much instruction time where kids are supposed to sit there quietly while the teacher talks. yes, that's something they need to learn. But the teachers would have to discipline less if they weren't creating environments were kids had to be quiet.

+100. Friends with kids in private school talk about more recess time, art and PE, drama lessons and more active learning all around than my kid gets in a strong WotP DCPS program. In MHO, DCPS has become so obsessed with meeting Common Core assessment benchmarks that teachers come under heavy pressure to tend to lose the forest for the trees in K, and in general.

PP here. And of course, overcrowded is a major limitation on recess time too. Our K teacher I think would love to give more outdoor time but the slots are so limited due to sharing the space. And god forbid there's bad weather. Ugh.

[Anonymous]

Too many children who haven't learned that no means no and are being asked instead of told by adults. Don't care what spectrum or income bracket they belong to. It's everywhere and adults can't understand why things are so hard. Because kids haven't been taught to do what they were told the first time!

[Anonymous]

Not a PP- but the most violent and abusive kid in my daughter's class is a little blond boy with two parents who are high income. There is another little white kid who is special needs who is also disruptive (though not violent at all). The class is 50% AA and the rest of the class is a mix of white, Latino and asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm wondering if this is a normal K occurrence or not: my child consistently reports and complains that their classroom misses out on activities or things are postponed because the class is misbehaving. I am getting the impression that the teacher spends a lot of time disciplining the kids and trying to get them to behave at the expense of actual instruction. My child is frustrated with the fact that the whole class pays for a few kids' bad behavior and I am beginning to agree. Have others experienced this and/or is this a pretty normal K experience?

Allow me to be the first to get castigated for this, but it's why the make-up of your child's classroom makes such a difference. Children from dysfunctional homes act out - it's their normal. Lot of dysfunctional children in your child's classroom means a lot of time must be devoted to behavioral management as opposed to intellectual curiosity. It's why so many parents are concerned about not just a school's educators, administration, and curriculum - but the peer group.

But plenty of high SES kids are challenging in the classroom too. In fact in our school two boys from the most privileged families caused the most disruption.

In the District of Columbia == you're in the DC Public Schools forum, I hope you noticed that -- the bolded part of your anecdote is the exception, not the norm.

the truly high SES kids in DC public schools (that term gets abused, btw: "high SES" isn't synonymous with "not in destitute poverty) who consistently disrupt are likely to have a neurological disorder like ADHD or ASD. And in fairness, some of the poor kids who act out probably also have a neurological disorder.

Our combine HHI is $250K and our DS has been referred to a play-based service to address early behavioral issues that do not amount to a diagnosed disorder. So you are not correct.

[Anonymous]

Yeah my little blond boy had big behavior problems in K. Now doing great in second grade. I don't know if we are high SES or not but we have graduate degrees.

K expectations these days, especially for boys, are hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I don't think this is a low or high SES issue. My kid is a Janney and the K teacher has her hands full with active kids that are learning the rules (raising hands, not shouting, etc etc).

I think part of the problem is that there's so much instruction time where kids are supposed to sit there quietly while the teacher talks. yes, that's something they need to learn. But the teachers would have to discipline less if they weren't creating environments were kids had to be quiet.

+100. Friends with kids in private school talk about more recess time, art and PE, drama lessons and more active learning all around than my kid gets in a strong WotP DCPS program. In MHO, DCPS has become so obsessed with meeting Common Core assessment benchmarks that teachers come under heavy pressure to tend to lose the forest for the trees in K, and in general.

I want to keep the 1st PPs post as a stick on the DCPS Forum, so I can cut and paste it every time I see this bulwark statement: "And Janney is The Same Thing as a Private School -- But Freeeeee!" Nope.

Janney (and Mann, Murch, Lafayette, Ross, whatever) are many excellent things, no doubt. But PP has unwittingly touched on the critical factor that distinguishes an actual independent school in NWDC from these public schools with a centralized curriculum that must teach ALL inbounds kids who show up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I don't think this is a low or high SES issue. My kid is a Janney and the K teacher has her hands full with active kids that are learning the rules (raising hands, not shouting, etc etc).

I think part of the problem is that there's so much instruction time where kids are supposed to sit there quietly while the teacher talks. yes, that's something they need to learn. But the teachers would have to discipline less if they weren't creating environments were kids had to be quiet.

+100. Friends with kids in private school talk about more recess time, art and PE, drama lessons and more active learning all around than my kid gets in a strong WotP DCPS program. In MHO, DCPS has become so obsessed with meeting Common Core assessment benchmarks that teachers come under heavy pressure to tend to lose the forest for the trees in K, and in general.

I want to keep the 1st PPs post as a stick on the DCPS Forum, so I can cut and paste it every time I see this bulwark statement: "And Janney is The Same Thing as a Private School -- But Freeeeee!" Nope.

Janney (and Mann, Murch, Lafayette, Ross, whatever) are many excellent things, no doubt. But PP has unwittingly touched on the critical factor that distinguishes an actual independent school in NWDC from these public schools with a centralized curriculum that must teach ALL inbounds kids who show up.

+1,000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm wondering if this is a normal K occurrence or not: my child consistently reports and complains that their classroom misses out on activities or things are postponed because the class is misbehaving. I am getting the impression that the teacher spends a lot of time disciplining the kids and trying to get them to behave at the expense of actual instruction. My child is frustrated with the fact that the whole class pays for a few kids' bad behavior and I am beginning to agree. Have others experienced this and/or is this a pretty normal K experience?

Allow me to be the first to get castigated for this, but it's why the make-up of your child's classroom makes such a difference. Children from dysfunctional homes act out - it's their normal. Lot of dysfunctional children in your child's classroom means a lot of time must be devoted to behavioral management as opposed to intellectual curiosity. It's why so many parents are concerned about not just a school's educators, administration, and curriculum - but the peer group.

But plenty of high SES kids are challenging in the classroom too. In fact in our school two boys from the most privileged families caused the most disruption.

+1

And plenty of high SES children have dysfunctional home lives. Their parents often just hide it better from the outside world (& the kids learn to do the same).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Too many children who haven't learned that no means no and are being asked instead of told by adults. Don't care what spectrum or income bracket they belong to. It's everywhere and adults can't understand why things are so hard. Because kids haven't been taught to do what they were told the first time!

Probably the most brilliant DCUM parenting post of the month.

[Anonymous]

Saying all kids with SN have behavioral problems is absurd. My child is SN and has some delays but is in no way a behavioral problem. SN is a broad term from ADHD to language, occupational therapy and other delays.

To me the bigger issue is that parents and preschools are not preparing children for the structure of K. The play based are failing our kids by not teaching them the basics and foundations on how to be successful at school. We go to preschool/school that has academics and structure and by the time the kids get to K., they are all more than prepared. As a parent, it is your job to make sure your child is prepared. If you blame the school or academics saying they are too much, maybe you child is not ready for K. and should do another year of preschool (or two). K. is for learning, not play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm wondering if this is a normal K occurrence or not: my child consistently reports and complains that their classroom misses out on activities or things are postponed because the class is misbehaving. I am getting the impression that the teacher spends a lot of time disciplining the kids and trying to get them to behave at the expense of actual instruction. My child is frustrated with the fact that the whole class pays for a few kids' bad behavior and I am beginning to agree. Have others experienced this and/or is this a pretty normal K experience?

Allow me to be the first to get castigated for this, but it's why the make-up of your child's classroom makes such a difference. Children from dysfunctional homes act out - it's their normal. Lot of dysfunctional children in your child's classroom means a lot of time must be devoted to behavioral management as opposed to intellectual curiosity. It's why so many parents are concerned about not just a school's educators, administration, and curriculum - but the peer group.

But plenty of high SES kids are challenging in the classroom too. In fact in our school two boys from the most privileged families caused the most disruption.

In the District of Columbia == you're in the DC Public Schools forum, I hope you noticed that -- the bolded part of your anecdote is the exception, not the norm.

the truly high SES kids in DC public schools (that term gets abused, btw: "high SES" isn't synonymous with "not in destitute poverty) who consistently disrupt are likely to have a neurological disorder like ADHD or ASD. And in fairness, some of the poor kids who act out probably also have a neurological disorder.

Our combine HHI is $250K and our DS has been referred to a play-based service to address early behavioral issues that do not amount to a diagnosed disorder. So you are not correct.

Maybe the play based program is the problem as he needs to be taught structure, following rules and how to thrive in a classroom setting.